A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

[Clare73]

Yes.
Stay ignorant (not knowlegable in a certain field)
Any excuse will do.

You can't trust those who were taught by the Apostles,
but you could trust some guy from 400 years ago that came up with
a brand new idea.

The content of my faith is not based on those who were taught by the Apostles, but on what the Apostles and disciples themselves teach in the God-breathed Scriptures (2Ti 3:16).

 

[d taylor]

You see Taylor,
I can't trust you.
I have to go by what Jesus said and Paul and the other writers.
I have a whole book here written by persons that were taught BY THE APOSTLES.
They also believed in loss of salvation.
Faith only churches are not telling the truth.
Most person are God-loving, probably as yourself, and so your incorrect doctrine will have no effect on your salvation...
but what if some member decides that they're going to just do whatever they want to because this is what their church taught them?
How does that square with Revelation 21:27?

I'll write more tomorrow if you care to continue...
but it's past midnight here...
'night.

I do believe this is an important topic...

Where is it stated in the verse from Revelation that these people were ever a believer.

Do you understand that when a person trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life, God's Spirit takes up permanent residence in this person. God can never look to the sinful spirit of a human and see anything righteous.

So even though a person who has fallen away and may appear sinful by outside actions they are doing. God still only sees His perfect Spirit residing in this person. This Spirit is said to never leave a person, a person may quench The Spirit, but they can never remove The Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't suppose you have noticed then, that @Clare73 believes in free will? Just not the usual self-contradictory notion of it

There's only one type of free will in the bible.
A will that is free to choose moral options.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So in your view God is not able to eternally save a person, He (God) needs your help. Does not seem like a very powerful God you believe in, that this God needs the help of sinful humans to eternally save them.

It's not MY VIEW taylor.
I posted verses from John and Paul.
I do believe it's THEIR view.

Persons that go to faith only churches and return to a life of sin because they think they could get away with it,
are as lost as when they first came to Christianity.

This is what John and Paul stated.
Not me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Where is it stated in the verse from Revelation that these people were ever a believer.

Do you understand that when a person trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life, God's Spirit takes up permanent residence in this person. God can never look to the sinful spirit of a human and see anything righteous.

So even though a person who has fallen away and may appear sinful by outside actions they are doing. God still only sees His perfect Spirit residing in this person. This Spirit is said to never leave a person, a person may quench The Spirit, but they can never remove The Spirit.

You're living in a dream my friend.

3 John 1:11
11Beloved, do not imitate evil but imitate good. Whoever does good is from God; whoever does evil has not seen God.

Titus 2:7-8
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.


1 Corinthians 5:11
11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.



The bible teaches us to abstain even from the APPEARANCE OF EVIL...
1 Thessalonians 5:22

If we return to a life of sin....we are once again lost.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That would contradict Php 1:6, 1Th 5:24, 1Co 1:8, 1Pe 1:5, 9, Heb 10:39, Jn 10:28, 1 Jn 3:9.



The NT presents limited free will: man is able to make some moral choices, but not all moral choices. . .he cannot choose to be always sinless in thought, word and deed.

Who said man could be sinless?

 

[GodsGrace101]

The content of my faith is not based on those who were taught by the Apostles, but on what the Apostles and disciples themselves teach in the God-breathed Scriptures (2Ti 3:16).

Could you make a list of who wrote what book in the NT?
Probably not since even Paul's letters were not all written by him.
The Apostles wrote very little in the NT.
But I agree that you should base your faith on the Apostles...
you just haven't given the right reason.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Where is it stated in the verse from Revelation that these people were ever a believer.

Do you understand that when a person trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life, God's Spirit takes up permanent residence in this person. God can never look to the sinful spirit of a human and see anything righteous.

So even though a person who has fallen away and may appear sinful by outside actions they are doing. God still only sees His perfect Spirit residing in this person. This Spirit is said to never leave a person, a person may quench The Spirit, but they can never remove The Spirit.

Revelation states that NOTHING UNCLEAN WILL ENTER HEAVEN.
Do you believe an UNCLEAN believer can enter heaven?
Is John split in his belief system?

The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean temple.

Here's what Jesus said:

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.




May I suggest that you do not pay too much attention to your mentor and start paying attention to what Jesus taught?

 

[Mark Quayle]

There's only one type of free will in the bible.
A will that is free to choose moral options.

According to you, are a will's decisions:
1) caused in any way by causes external to the person choosing, or
2) caused in part by causes external to the person choosing, or
3) completely free of external causes?

 

[d taylor]

Revelation states that NOTHING UNCLEAN WILL ENTER HEAVEN.
Do you believe an UNCLEAN believer can enter heaven?
Is John split in his belief system?

The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean temple.

Here's what Jesus said:

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.




May I suggest that you do not pay too much attention to your mentor and start paying attention to what Jesus taught?

Well my final observation on your comments is that you are trusting in your obedience and how well you can live your life and are hoping your obedience will be approved by God. So you will be judged at the end worthy of receiving eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace101]

According to you, are a will's decisions:
1) caused in any way by causes external to the person choosing, or
2) caused in part by causes external to the person choosing, or
3) completely free of external causes?

No further comment on free will.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Well my final observation on your comments is that you are trusting in your obedience and how well you can live your life and are hoping your obedience will be approved by God. So you will be judged at the end worthy of receiving eternal life.

Nothing further to add.
Follow Jesus.
He said that those who love Him will follow His commandments.
That means there are commandments to follow.
John 14:15
15“If you love me, obey my commandments.


For your self...
Try to find some verses in the NT where Jesus states that you ONLY HAVE TO HAVE FAITH IN HIM
and you will be saved.
You can share if you so desire.

 

[Clare73]

There's only one type of free will in the bible.
A will that is free to choose moral options.

But not the philosopher's "free will" of the power to choose all moral options. . .for man cannot choose to be always sinless in thought, word and deed. The Bible presents a limited free will.
I suspect Calvin was addressing the philosophical notion, not the Biblical notion.

 

[Clare73]

Who said man could be sinless?

I give up. . .who?

 

[Clare73]

Could you make a list of who wrote what book in the NT?

The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that the NT is the word of God in every detail, the very truth of God backed by the power and authority of God, its testimony having final authority. For me, there is no appeal against Scripture (2 Ti 3:16), and that case is forever closed, never subject to review for me.

Probably not since even Paul's letters were not all written by him.
The Apostles wrote very little in the NT.
But I agree that you should base your faith on the Apostles...
you just haven't given the right reason.

My faith is not based on the apostles. The content of my faith is the Scriptures, no more and no less.

 

[GodsGrace101]

But not the philosopher's "free will" of the power to choose all moral options. . .for man cannot choose to be always sinless in thought, word and deed. The Bible presents a limited free will.
I suspect Calvin was addressing the philosophical notion, not the Biblical notion.

I dont know about philosophical free will.
Only biblical.
Post some scripture that states our free will is limited...

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that the NT is the word of God in every detail, the very truth of God backed by the power and authority of God, its testimony having final authority. For me, there is no appeal against Scripture (2 Ti 3:16), and that case is forever closed, never subject to review for me.


My faith is not based on the apostles. The content of my faith is the Scriptures, no more and no less.

You mean the bible is your God?
Question:
WHY do you think your faith is reasonable?

 

[Clare73]

I dont know about philosophical free will.
Only biblical.
Post some scripture that states our free will is limited...

Addressed in post #153.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I dont know about philosophical free will.
Only biblical.
Post some scripture that states our free will is limited...

John 1:13 (not born of human decision, but of God)
Romans 8:7,8 (cannot submit, cannot please God)
Ephesians 2:1 (dead) and Ephesians 2:1-10 (GOD made us alive, WE did not)
Hebrews 6:1-6 (It is impossible...repentance).

 

[Clare73]

You mean the bible is your God?

No more than it was Jesus' God, who believed
the OT was the "word of God" in every detail (Mt 15:6, Lk 5:1, Lk 11:28, Jn 10:35),
that it was the truth of God vested with the authority of God and backed by the power of God (Mt 5:17-19).
He treated arguments from Scripture as having clinching force. When he said, "It is written," that was final. There was no appeal against Scripture, for "the scripture cannot be broken." (Mt 4:5, Mt 4:7, Mt 4:10, Jn 10:35). God's word holds good forever.
He constantly scolded the Jews for their ignorance and neglect of Scripture: "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures?". . ."Have you not read. . .?". . ."Go and learn what this means. . ." (Mk 12:24, Mt 12:3, Mt 12:5, Mt 19:4, Mt 21:16, Mt 21:42,
Mt 9:13).
Likewise, Jesus himself submitted to the OT as the word of God:
he lived a life of obedience to Scripture (Lk 4:17-21, Mt 8:16-17, Mt 11:2-5),
and then he died in obedience to Scripture (Lk 18:31, Mk 8:31, Mk 9:31, Mk 10:33-34, Mt 26:24, Lk 22:37, Mt 26:53-56),
when he arose, he explained who he was by the Scriptures (Lk 24:44-47, Lk 24:27),
he presented himself to the Jews as the fulfiller of Scripture (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:46-47).
Belief in the authority and truth of the OT was the foundation of Jesus' whole ministry.

Question:
WHY do you think your faith is reasonable?

However, my faith is not based on reason.
My faith is based on the testimony of the Holy Spirit to my spirit that Scripture is the truth of God, whether it seems "reasonable" or not.

That Jesus paid the debt of my guilt is not based on reasonableness, but on faith.