A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

[Mark Quayle]

No comment.
I like serious discussion.
You're descending into personal insult, as usual.
Study some church history and you'll find out what the early church believed.

Maybe you're afraid of where it'll lead you?

Been there many times. Invariably they'll quote some early writer as representative of the early church, and ignore Paul etc.

I meant you no insult. It is simply that so far as I've seen, your arguments are based on a false assumption that Calvinism's teachings necessarily imply something they do not. Sorry, but that is strawmanning, if you use that to represent what Calvinism teaches.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That person was never saved in the first place.

Sure.
Calvinists cannot possibly believe a person could forfeit their salvation.
That would go against the Perseverance of the Saints.
All of TULIP would crumble.

Ditto for free will.
Which is why free will cannot be accepted by a calvinist.
All of TULIP would crumble.

Have you read Luke 8:13
2 Peter 2:19-22
Colossians 1:22-23

Got many more.
You have to jump many hurdles to adhere to calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Been there many times. Invariably they'll quote some early writer as representative of the early church, and ignore Paul etc.

I meant you no insult. It is simply that so far as I've seen, your arguments are based on a false assumption that Calvinism's teachings necessarily imply something they do not. Sorry, but that is strawmanning, if you use that to represent what Calvinism teaches.

Does John Calvin represent calvinism?
I'm staring at his writings.

 

[d taylor]

I said STILL saved.
That means the person is saved.

But if that person returns to a life of sin, is he still saved?
Maybe you could read 2 Peter 2:20-22 before you reply.

How can i say it any clearer, if a person has trusted in The Messiah they will never lose their Eternal Life, Never!

Do you not believe John 5:24. Can you show me another verse that states that an ex- believer can cross back over from life to death.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Been there many times. Invariably they'll quote some early writer as representative of the early church, and ignore Paul etc.

I meant you no insult. It is simply that so far as I've seen, your arguments are based on a false assumption that Calvinism's teachings necessarily imply something they do not. Sorry, but that is strawmanning, if you use that to represent what Calvinism teaches.

I MEAN IT....
Study early church history.
Read those that were taught by the Apostles....
Not to follow any particular one person...
but they wrote about what Jesus taught.
It's very interesting.

If you're interested, I could link something.
'night.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Tsk Tsk.
Jesus said that it's none of our business.
God keeps His word.

His word is, basically,
John 3.16

You seem to think we have no business trying to understand that simple parable? Actually, what he said was, he is fair; and furthermore, more than implied generosity on his part with those to whom he chose to do with as he will.

Rather interestingly, John 3:16 is relevant to that parable, in the context of John 3:18.

But John 3:16 doesn't say what one version claims —that "God loves the world SO MUCH, that he gave.....". What it says is that he loves the world thus: That the ones believing will have eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace101]

How can i say it any clearer, if a person has trusted in The Messiah they will never lose their Eternal Life, Never!

Do you not believe John 5:24. Can you show me another verse that states that an ex- believer can cross back over from life to death.

You see Taylor,
I can't trust you.
I have to go by what Jesus said and Paul and the other writers.
I have a whole book here written by persons that were taught BY THE APOSTLES.
They also believed in loss of salvation.
Faith only churches are not telling the truth.
Most person are God-loving, probably as yourself, and so your incorrect doctrine will have no effect on your salvation...
but what if some member decides that they're going to just do whatever they want to because this is what their church taught them?
How does that square with Revelation 21:27?

I'll write more tomorrow if you care to continue...
but it's past midnight here...
'night.

I do believe this is an important topic...

 

[d taylor]

You see Taylor,
I can't trust you.
I have to go by what Jesus said and Paul and the other writers.
I have a whole book here written by persons that were taught BY THE APOSTLES.
They also believed in loss of salvation.
Faith only churches are not telling the truth.
Most person are God-loving, probably as yourself, and so your incorrect doctrine will have no effect on your salvation...
but what if some member decides that they're going to just do whatever they want to because this is what their church taught them?
How does that square with Revelation 21:27?

I'll write more tomorrow if you care to continue...
but it's past midnight here...
'night.

I do believe this is an important topic...

So really what you are saying is that you are responsible for your eternal life salvation and not God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You seem to think we have no business trying to understand that simple parable? Actually, what he said was, he is fair; and furthermore, more than implied generosity on his part with those to whom he chose to do with as he will.

Rather interestingly, John 3:16 is relevant to that parable, in the context of John 3:18.

But John 3:16 doesn't say what one version claims —that "God loves the world SO MUCH, that he gave.....". What it says is that he loves the world thus: That the ones believing will have eternal life.

Boy Mark...
JESUS told that parable because it's not our concern what He promised the ones at 8 in the morning or the ones at 3 in the afternoon.
Our business is what HE PROMISED US and not to be concerned with the others.

I didn't say WE shouldn't understand it.
You don't make this easy.

God is sovereign and will give to all as He sees fit.
This has nothing to do with salvation economy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does John Calvin represent calvinism?
I'm staring at his writings.

Modern Calvinism? Some Calvinists say yes, and call for Calvinists to get back to the basics Calvin taught, but others say he represents Calvinism only in part.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I MEAN IT....
Study early church history.
Read those that were taught by the Apostles....
Not to follow any particular one person...
but they wrote about what Jesus taught.
It's very interesting.

If you're interested, I could link something.
'night.

Been there. Done that. If it isn't scripture, it is only tangential to the truth.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Boy Mark...
JESUS told that parable because it's not our concern what He promised the ones at 8 in the morning or the ones at 3 in the afternoon.
Our business is what HE PROMISED US and not to be concerned with the others.

I didn't say WE shouldn't understand it.
You don't make this easy.

God is sovereign and will give to all as He sees fit.
This has nothing to do with salvation economy.

Has to do with the Kingdom of heaven, but it is also relevant to the claim about the meaning of 'his fairness'.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So really what you are saying is that you are responsible for your eternal life salvation and not God.

Oh yes.
I'm very responsible.

Here's what John and Paul thought:




But we only choose verses that SEEM to confirm what we believe.
Unfortunately, the bible is one whole, complete book and every verse must agree with what Jesus taught.
And, what Paul taught, and the other Apostles and those that came directly after them.

1 Peter 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Please notice what 1 Peter 1:5 states...
We are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto salvation.
As long as we have faith, we will be saved. (of course).
But the bible does warn about faith waning:

Luke 1:13
13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
Jesus said the BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and when tested, fall away.

Hebrews 11:6​

6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
No faith, no salvation.


1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
It is possible to depart from the faith...
Apostacy


Revelation 2:4-5
4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first.
If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.


But even Paul was concerned:
1 Corinthians 9:27
27I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.​

 

[GodsGrace101]

Been there. Done that. If it isn't scripture, it is only tangential to the truth.

Yes.
Stay ignorant (not knowlegable in a certain field)
Any excuse will do.

You can't trust those who were taught by the Apostles,
but you could trust some guy from 400 years ago that came up with
a brand new idea.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Modern Calvinism? Some Calvinists say yes, and call for Calvinists to get back to the basics Calvin taught, but others say he represents Calvinism only in part.

So even calvinists don't really know what they believe.
Or can't accept it because it's so harsh.
I can understand that.
The WCF does soften it up.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes.
Stay ignorant (not knowlegable in a certain field)
Any excuse will do.

You can't trust those who were taught by the Apostles,
but you could trust some guy from 400 years ago that came up with
a brand new idea.

I don't read Calvin, nor base what I believe on him. Strike two, lol... (jk)

 

[Mark Quayle]

So even calvinists don't really know what they believe.
Or can't accept it because it's so harsh.
I can understand that.
The WCF does soften it up.

From what I understand it isn't the harshness that bothers them, (unless they are '4-pointers' or something, but I don't generally consider those Calvinists). That is a bit harsh on your part though, to take disagreements between proponents of a set of doctrines as "not knowing what to believe." Actually, it even sounds a bit mocking, on your part.

 

[d taylor]

Oh yes.
I'm very responsible.

Here's what John and Paul thought:




But we only choose verses that SEEM to confirm what we believe.
Unfortunately, the bible is one whole, complete book and every verse must agree with what Jesus taught.
And, what Paul taught, and the other Apostles and those that came directly after them.

1 Peter 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Please notice what 1 Peter 1:5 states...
We are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto salvation.
As long as we have faith, we will be saved. (of course).
But the bible does warn about faith waning:

Luke 1:13
13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
Jesus said the BELIEVE FOR A WHILE and when tested, fall away.

Hebrews 11:6​

6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.​

No faith, no salvation.​

​

​

1 Timothy 4:1​

1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,​

It is possible to depart from the faith...​

Apostacy​

​

​

Revelation 2:4-5​

4But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.​

5Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first.​

If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.​

​

​

But even Paul was concerned:​

1 Corinthians 9:27​

27I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.​

So in your view God is not able to eternally save a person, He (God) needs your help. Does not seem like a very powerful God you believe in, that this God needs the help of sinful humans to eternally save them.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sure.
Calvinists cannot possibly believe a person could forfeit their salvation.
That would go against the Perseverance of the Saints.
All of TULIP would crumble.

Ditto for free will.
Which is why free will cannot be accepted by a calvinist.
All of TULIP would crumble.

Have you read Luke 8:13
2 Peter 2:19-22
Colossians 1:22-23

Got many more.
You have to jump many hurdles to adhere to calvinism.


View attachment 325707

I don't suppose you have noticed then, that @Clare73 believes in free will? Just not the usual self-contradictory notion of it

 

[Clare73]

Sure.
Calvinists cannot possibly believe a person could forfeit their salvation.

Forfeiture of salvation would contradict Php 1:6, 1Th 5:24, 1Co 1:8, 1Pe 1:5, 9, Heb 10:39, Jn 10:28, 1 Jn 3:9.

Which is why free will cannot be accepted by a calvinist.

The NT presents limited free will: man is able to make some moral choices, but not all moral choices. . .he cannot choose to be always sinless in thought, word and deed.