A troublesome verse for the Calvinist

[GodsGrace101]

Oh good. So you've joined forces with JAL, who also doesn't know how to add, "to me", to the statement, "makes no sense".

Nobody is saying that he doesn't foreknow (in the English sense) what his creatures will do. Seems like you are sidestepping the point. Again: @Clare73 was not saying that he doesn't foreknow everything, but that the Biblical use of the term "foreknow" has to do with what HE will do, as opposed to knowing what WE will do. (Again, she is not saying that he doesn't know what we will do. Haha! After all —he causes that too !)

Maybe you or Clare could post some support for what you're saying...
Of course God foreknows what He will do.
Why are you still discussing this?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Oh good. So you've joined forces with JAL, who also doesn't know how to add, "to me", to the statement, "makes no sense".

Nobody is saying that he doesn't foreknow (in the English sense) what his creatures will do. Seems like you are sidestepping the point. Again: @Clare73 was not saying that he doesn't foreknow everything, but that the Biblical use of the term "foreknow" has to do with what HE will do, as opposed to knowing what WE will do. (Again, she is not saying that he doesn't know what we will do. Haha! After all —he causes that too !)

Sometmes I'll add TO ME, and sometimes I won't
When I don't it means that what you're saying doesn't make senses to ANYONE.

I think I know what Clare is trying to say...
but it's up to her to make herself be understood, not me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

And for 1500 years, the church likewise did not believe
Eph 2:8-9: salvation. . .through faith, not by works, and
Ro 8:28: justification apart from works/lawkeeping.

Start a thread...
The CC never taught salvation by works.
We are saved by faith.
Works come after.
Some are lazy and don't want to do works.
They'll take that up with God.
Jesus said we are to do many things here on earth.
Try Matthew 24, 25 for starters.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's not about simple and complicated.

It's about whether the NT presents God's foreknowledge as being in regard to what man is going to do--which the NT does not. . .
and whether that "foreknowledge" is God's basis for election--which it is not.

Well, Mark gave you a star,,,but you make no sense.
THE NEW TESTAMENT states that God FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING.

He FOREKNOWS WHO is going to be saved...
He does not choose who is going to be saved.

What He has predestined is HOW persons are saved...
NOT WHO.

We are saved based on whether or not we choose to be saved by the sacrifice of Jesus...
and we are to count the cost before we decide to follow Christ.
Luke 14:28

If WE ARE TO COUNT THE COST...
HOW is it that God chooses?
Calvinism makes no sense.

 

[Clare73]

Start a thread...
The CC never taught salvation by works.

You are uninformed.
Check your church history over the last 100 years.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Paul makes my whole point, and disagrees with you. If it is Grace, it is entirely by God's doing, and not by anything we can contribute. To say that since Paul says salvation is by grace alone and not the work of man, that therefore your contribution by the will of man is not a claim to works, is —well, let's just say, 'circular'.

That's bad logic too, but nevermind: WHAT makes you think the church did not believe in predestination? From what I can tell, you don't even know what predestination IS! After all, Paul certainly believed in it!


??

No comment.
I like serious discussion.
You're descending into personal insult, as usual.
Study some church history and you'll find out what the early church believed.

Maybe you're afraid of where it'll lead you?

 

[GodsGrace101]

"Understanding simple words" in the NT is determined by the NT's usage of them.
For example, "spiritual" in Paul does not mean non-material, non-corporeal, or non-physical as it does elsewhere.



Or because words have to be understood according to the NT's use of them, as in "spiritual."



Not really. . .the Bible's presentation of free will is not the philosopher's notion of free will.
To the philosopher, free will is the power to make all moral choices.
In Scripture, man does not have the power to make all moral choices, he cannot choose to be always sinless in thought, word and deed.


Both "all" and "world" can mean either
all with exception (including every man), or
all without distinction (including every group).

The right one must be understood if Scripture is not to contradict itself.

"Everyone" does not have more than one meaning.



Jesus didn't write anything. . .your issue is with the writers of Scripture. . .who are to be understood in consistency, not in contradiction.

I'm sorry Clare.
You just need to start all over again.
I mean REALLY!

 

[GodsGrace101]

You are uninformed.
Check your church history over the last 100 years.

100 YEARS!!!

You're too funny.
Church history started in about 30 AD.
check it out.

 

[d taylor]

But aren't we supposed to do our part of obeying?
If we BELIEVE, it means we obey...
It's like that APPOINTED word...
the word OBEY is in the world unbelief, so the opposite is also true.

If we stop obeying, are we still saved?

Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is not based on a life time of obedience.

The obedience that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Is God has given one condition to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and that one condition is to trust, believe, have faith in The promised Messiah (Jesus). If a person does believe in The Messiah, then they have obeyed God requirement to receive Eternal Life.

That obedience, happens in a moment of time as long as it takes a person to understand and believe in The Messiah for Eternal Life

 

[GodsGrace101]

Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is not based on a life time of obedience.

The obedience that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Is God has given one condition to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and that one condition is to trust, believe, have faith in The promised Messiah (Jesus). If a person does believe in The Messiah, then they have obeyed God requirement to receive Eternal Life.

That obedience, happens in a moment of time as long as it takes a person to understand and believe in The Messiah for Eternal Life

Could you just simply answer my question?
If a person does not obey God, and lives a life of sin...
Is that person still saved?

 

[Clare73]

Well, Mark gave you a star,,,but you make no sense.
THE NEW TESTAMENT states that God FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING.

Agreed.

He FOREKNOWS WHO is going to be saved...
He does not choose who is going to be saved.

What He has predestined is HOW persons are saved...
NOT WHO.

We are saved based on whether or not we choose to be saved by the sacrifice of Jesus...
and we are to count the cost before we decide to follow Christ.
Luke 14:28

If WE ARE TO COUNT THE COST...
HOW is it that God chooses?
Calvinism makes no sense.

Finally. . .a good question.

God's choosing involves Gods working a willingness and desire in one's heart to believe and obey (Php 2:13).
In that willingness and desire, we must remember that it may not all be easy, so we must have a proper frame of mind in our approach to it.

 

[d taylor]

That's not true,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."?

What does a verse from the Olivet Discourse about the tribulation have to do with believers losing their eternal life. Do not see the connection, love is not a condition to receive or keep ones eternal life.

Show in The Bible plain clear cut worded verse(s), that state the conditions a believer has to keep, so that they do not lose their eternal life.

The Bible plainly states Gods keep the believer and no one can snatch them from God's hands.

 

[Clare73]

I'm sorry Clare.
You just need to start all over again.
I mean REALLY!

Is English your second language?
You certainly speak it well.

 

[Clare73]

100 YEARS!!!

You're too funny.
Church history started in about 30 AD.
check it out.

So?

Check to see what the (American) Catholic Church taught on the matter in the last 100 years, before they changed their mind.

 

[Clare73]

Could you just simply answer my question?
If a person does not obey God, and lives a life of sin...
Is that person still saved?

That person was never saved in the first place.

 

[d taylor]

Could you just simply answer my question?
If a person does not obey God, and lives a life of sin...
Is that person still saved?

Your question leaves out a major point. Has or has not this person trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life is this person a believer. If they are a believer, then how they live their life after they have trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life has no bearing on their Eternal Life.

Or are you just speaking of people who believe in God, because these people are not believers as defined by The Bible. To be a believer a person must have believed in The Messiah, that Jesus is the Son of God, The Messiah

Does God Allow Returns of Eternal Life? – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

Free Grace DOES Take Sin Seriously – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

What Can Eternally Secure Believers Lose? Their Ministry – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

 

[Mark Quayle]

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" - Acts 10:34

What this verse is saying is that God doesn't care what kind of person you are. As the proverb goes: red, yellow, black or white, we're all prcious in his sight. However, Calvinism doesn't fit well with this verse. If God chooses one person to be saved and another person to be lost, then it looks like God indeed is a respecter of persons. From a Calvinist point of view Peter would be completely wrong in this verse.

In the (Matthew 20: 1-16) parable of the workers in the field, was the landowner fair?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Is English your second language?
You certainly speak it well.

Gee thanks!
I so appreciate your kind words.

 

[GodsGrace101]

In the (Matthew 20: 1-16) parable of the workers in the field, was the landowner fair?

Tsk Tsk.
Jesus said that it's none of our business.
God keeps His word.

His word is, basically,
John 3.16

 

[GodsGrace101]

Your question leaves out a major point. Has or has not this person trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life is this person a believer. If they are a believer, then how they live their life after they have trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life has no bearing on their Eternal Life.

Or are you just speaking of people who believe in God, because these people are not believers as defined by The Bible. To be a believer a person must have believed in The Messiah, that Jesus is the Son of God, The Messiah

Does God Allow Returns of Eternal Life? – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

Free Grace DOES Take Sin Seriously – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

What Can Eternally Secure Believers Lose? Their Ministry – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

I said STILL saved.
That means the person is saved.

But if that person returns to a life of sin, is he still saved?
Maybe you could read 2 Peter 2:20-22 before you reply.