Eternal Damnation, Conditional Immortality, or Universal Reconciliation: A CF poll

[public hermit]

I think it would be interesting to get a sense of where CFers stand on this issue.

Eternal Damnation - some (many) will suffer eternal torment/separation from God and some will be given everlasting life

Conditional Immortality - some ( many) will be annihilated and some will be given everlasting life

Universal Reconciliation - all will eventually be reconciled to God in Christ

Agnostic - not committed to any of the three options above

I am assuming any who are "hopeful universalists" are basically in the agnostic camp.

For myself, I was agnostic for a long time while arguing that UR was the most likely position, having the better arguments on its side. Eventually, I have come to embrace UR. I do believe that some will suffer terribly, some not as much, and others will experience great joy as we all enter the unmitigated presence of God. To be in Christ is to be conformed to his image and prepared for the unmitigated presence of God who is an unquenchable fire that purifies us of all dross. Eventually, at the end of the ages, God will be all in all. As Origen said, either we are baptized by water in this life or fire in the next.

At any rate, please vote so that we can see what folks on CF believe. I have left voting anonymous so that everyone can vote their conscience without feeling compelled to defend their position. I'm hoping most everyone will vote so we can get a good sense of the group. But feel free to engage in lively but lovely discussion below. I've said my piece (many times over) so I'll turn it over to y'all. God bless us all.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think it would be interesting to get a sense of where CFers stand on this issue.

Eternal damnation - some (many) will suffer eternal damnation

Conditional immortality - some ( many) will be annihilated

Universal Reconciliation - all will eventually be reconciled to God in Christ

Agnostic - not committed to any of the three options above

I am assuming any who are "hopeful universalists" are basically in the agnostic camp.

For myself, I was agnostic for a long time while arguing that UR was the most likely position, having the better arguments on its side. Eventually, I have come to embrace UR. I do believe that some will suffer terribly, some not as much, and others will experience great joy as we all enter the unmitigated presence of God. To be in Christ is to be conformed to his image and prepared for the unmitigated presence of God who is an unquenchable fire that purifies us of all dross. Eventually, at the end of the ages, God will be all in all. As Origen said, either we are baptized by water in this life or fire in the next.

At any rate, please vote so that we can see what folks on CF believe, and feel free to engage in lively but lovely discussion below. I've said my piece (many times over) so I'll turn it over to y'all. God bless us all.

Yet once again, I'll blurt out that I'm an Existentialist, and for those who don't already know, I'm also an 'agnostic' where various points of Eschatology are concerned. This means I don't firmly subscribe to any one of the 3 positions on H, E, double Styx, and I therefore don't really have a bone to pick with others over it, unless they begin to pick one with me.

My "why?" for this is two-fold: 1) I approach Hermeneutics and Exegesis differently than other people do [and whether I do practice these things correctly or incorrectly I leave up to other folks to engage and evaluate], 2) after doing this and studying commentary from this, that and the other theologian over the years, I think I can see glimpses of variations between biblical writers that lend themselves--whether clearly, figuratively or cryptically--to all three positions.

 

[Hmm]

I encountered the simple ideas of universalism last year through one of the threads and it was quickly apparent to me that it's the only explanation of Christianity that makes complete sense. I was previously having to put doubts about ECT at the back of my mind and this prevented a complete acceptance of a truly loving God. I feel free from doubt and more confident in my beliefs about God now. It would be interesting to see what the poll reveals and I hope as many as possible cast their vote.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus said it. I believe it that settles it.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[public hermit]

Jesus said it. I believe it that settles it.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

Thank you, Der Alte. Did you vote?

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you, Der Alte. Did you vote?

Si!

 

[public hermit]

Si!

Gracias!

 

[Jipsah]

I put down Conditional Immortality. I see nothing at all in Scripture that says that everyone lives forever by default, end of. Damnationism partakes a bit too freely in the despicable "God can't..." and "what that really means..." techniques to defend what is in the end is the barbarous idea that God designed the universe in such a way that most of His creation will be "tormented" (because you can't say "tortured") forever. Universalism goes aground where our Lord speaks of God's ability to destroy both body and soul in hell, although both Universalists and Damnationists see that as an idle threat and that God would never actually do such a thing.

 

[public hermit]

I put down Conditional Immortality. I see nothing at all in Scripture that says that everyone lives forever by default, end of. Damnationism partakes a bit too freely in the despicable "God can't..." and "what that really means..." techniques to defend what is in the end is the barbarous idea that God designed the universe in such a way that most of His creation will be "tormented" (because you can't say "tortured") forever. Universalism goes aground where our Lord speaks of God's ability to destroy both body and soul in hell, although both Universalists and Damnationists see that as an idle threat and that God would never actually do such a thing.

Thank you for voting and commenting. Hopefully, more will vote so we can get a somewhat accurate sense of where folks are at on this issue.

 

[public hermit]

Thank you to those who have voted, hoping others will, too.

“I do not pretend to be better than others. Therefore what the old Bishop once said to me is not true–namely, that I spoke as if the others were going to hell. No, if I can be said to speak at all of going to hell then I am saying something like this: If the others are going to hell, then I am going along with them. But I do not believe that; on the contrary, I believe that we will all be saved, I, too, and this awakens my deepest wonder." Soren Kierkegaard from his Autobiographical Journals

 

[Saint Steven]

I encountered the simple ideas of universalism last year through one of the threads and it was quickly apparent to me that it's the only explanation of Christianity that makes complete sense. I was previously having to put doubts about ECT at the back of my mind and this prevented a complete acceptance of a truly loving God. I feel free from doubt and more confident in my beliefs about God now. It would be interesting to see what the poll reveals and I hope as many as possible cast their vote.

Like you, I was introduced to UR (Universal Redemption/Restoration) on this forum.

I had been dealing with a family issue where one of my wife's sisters had said that she "couldn't believe in a God that would put people in hell."

The whole family had been raised in the church, so this was quite a family issue with them. I heard about it from my mother-in-law. And she was beside herself to know how to reply to such a statement. I provided some of the usual apologetics and scriptures about hell. But there seemed to be no satisfactory way to deal with this.

Hell had always been this inconvenient blemish on Christianity. A place created by our loving God to manifest his glory in the most cruel and sadistic way imaginable. Burning humans alive in a way that they could not die, only suffer the torment of burning forever with no hope of escape.

And this included people I knew and loved. Fine people with no other reason to be incinerated than their choice to not be in, or stay in the church. Did this punishment really fit the "crime". Was this justice in any stretch of the imagination? No. Plain and simple. No way.

Back to the forum... I was having a PM conversation with someone I have a lot of respect for. He wrote, "I don't believe in a forever burning hell." Say what? If this was true, I wanted to know more.

That was the beginning of my journey into Christian Universalism. No regrets.

cc @Hillsage and @FineLinen

 

[Hmm]

I had been dealing with a family issue where one of my wife's sisters had said that she "couldn't believe in a God that would put people in hell."

It's ironic how this something like this is interpreted as someone falling away from the faith whereas really they are trying to fulfill their faith and know deep down that they can't do this while hanging onto a concept as grotesque and ridiculous as ECT, and in doing so they often bring others home too.

I believe the inner dissatisfaction with the idea of God as Torturer is the prompting of the Holy Spirit to abandon the concept.

He wrote, "I don't believe in a forever burning hell." Say what? If this was true, I wanted to know more.

Yeah, from other testimonies I've read, it's the final acknowledgment of this doubt that starts the often quick path to embracing UR, though that sometimes goes via a temporary dalliance with Annihilation.

 

[Tolworth John]

she "couldn't believe in a God that would put people in hell."

Yet according to John 3:18 it is they who will not believe.

A place created by our loving God to manifest his glory in the most cruel and sadistic way imaginable.

Where does it say that God manifest his Glory in the exsistence of hell?

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah, from other testimonies I've read, it's the final acknowledgment of this doubt that starts the often quick path to embracing UR, though that sometimes goes via a temporary dalliance with Annihilation.

Danger, danger, Will Robinson... Annihilationism is a gateway drug to full blown UR. - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe the inner dissatisfaction with the idea of God as Torturer is the prompting of the Holy Spirit to abandon the concept.

Wow.
That's a very compelling thought.
Even Satanists believe in hell. Makes one wonder about the source and agenda.

Does the fear of hell give us life to the full, or does it steal and kill and destroy?

John 10:10 NIV
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yet according to John 3:18 it is they who will not believe.

Face time with God will do wonders for anyone.

1 Corinthians 13:12 NIV
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror;
then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,
even as I am fully known.

Where does it say that God manifest his Glory in the exsistence of hell?

I was making reference to a common apologetic in defense of eternal conscious torment.
I agree that it is not biblical.

she "couldn't believe in a God that would put people in hell."

A place created by our loving God to manifest his glory in the most cruel and sadistic way imaginable.

 

[Tolworth John]

Now I know in part;

The problem is partly that we don't look at what scripture does say, but rather what we think it says.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's ironic how this something like this is interpreted as someone falling away from the faith whereas really they are trying to fulfill their faith and know deep down that they can't do this while hanging onto a concept as grotesque and ridiculous as ECT, and in doing so they often bring others home too.

I have found it very freeing in my spirit to leave so much of that religious dogma behind. Heavy baggage. "My yoke is easy..." - Matthew 11:30

Like removing a heavy wet wool coat. (thunk... sound when it hits the floor) I'll need a shower too. - LOL

If I am astray, from what? I find God much more lovable when I know I can trust him. Not that I didn't before. I just hadn't given the inconvenient concept of hell a lot of thought. The situation with the family moved it back to the front burner, as the saying goes.

The violent reaction to UR by our fellow Christians is a curious thing. What is the source of such a caustic reaction? Not love, I would say. Tribalism, for sure.

The Christian walk should not be a high-wire balancing act over the fires of hell with no safety net. The flames licking hungrily at your bare feet. One slip-up and you are toast.

Recently, in a small group study, the leader was discussing in closing, being ready for the Second Coming. His eyes glazed over as he agonized about being ready. He was obviously terrified. I love this guy. We sat together in church last week. I'm looking for the right moment to discuss this with him.

 

[Saint Steven]

The problem is partly that we don't look at what scripture does say, but rather what we think it says.

Good discussion point, thanks.

That saw cuts both ways.
We can't process what the Bible "says" without thinking. And there is no consensus on what we "think" it says.
It's called interpretation. Even Jesus understood this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

 

[Tolworth John]

It is interesting to look at how God dealt with the Israelites.
They rejected him, God sent warning prophets, they ignored them and God punished the Israelites untill they repented and turned back to God.
Then there was restoration, prosperity etc.

The fall out from this was that always there werethose who did not benefit from the restoration.

God saves his people, but those who arn't saved get the bottom line of exclusion from God.

Just as not all Israelites were 'saved' so not all people will be 'saved' ./