How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[JAL]

You don't know how to follow God?
I suggest you take a look at his law.

Rule of conscience. Thought I was clear. Interesting I don't need to deflect on it, because it clearly governed every righteous act in biblical history.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Should I try to be evil?

Ha! You really cannot even see my point??? Just as @Clare73 says, we always freely choose according to our inclinations.

Maybe I should have said, "Funny, how you always choose according to your inclinations". Or maybe I should have gone one step further: "Funny how you always choose as you were caused to choose!", since, yes, your inclinations are caused.

 

[JAL]

Ha! You really cannot even see my point??? Just as @Clare73 says, we always freely choose according to our inclinations.

Maybe I should have said, "Funny, how you always choose according to your inclinations". Or maybe I should have gone one step further: "Funny how you always choose as you were caused to choose!", since, yes, your inclinations are caused.

Sheer assertion. Again, what fuels the motions of angels? Do they fill up at the gas pump?

 

[Clare73]

Rule of conscience. Thought I was clear. Interesting I don't need to deflect on it, because it clearly governed every righteous act in biblical history.

My response is more Biblical.

 

[JAL]

My advice is better.

The advice where you told me to ask Abraham, Moses, and Joshua? Sorry I don't pray to the saints, so I'll stick with the rule of conscience.

 

[zoidar]

Ha! You really cannot even see my point??? Just as @Clare73 says, we always freely choose according to our inclinations.

I don't understand what you guys mean by us always choosing according to our inclinations. Even a person having the inclination to drink coffee, chooses tea at times.

I would rather say you always do what you choose.

 

[Clare73]

The advice where you told me to ask Abraham, Moses, and Joshua? Sorry I don't pray to the saints, so I'll stick with the rule of conscience.

Naw, my response was more Biblical.

 

[JAL]

You don't know how to follow God?
I suggest you take a look at his law.

You are so far off the mark it's not even funny. The written law came by the Voice - in fact the 10 commandments were voiced by God to all Israel before engraved in stone tablets.

The Hebrew word for voice is qowl and it occurs 500 times, always in sonic contexts. The expression, "Obey my voice" (or a similar phrase) occurs 50 times in the OT. Now here's the clincher: the expression, "Obey my laws" is almost never found (unless one is reading a poor translation such as the NIV which essentially ignores the sonic Hebrew word qowl, unjustifiably replacing it with 'law').

Moreover, even the Hebrew word "obey" is SONIC in origin, it means to hearken as unto a voice.

To summarize: the OT saints were under the Voice - a subjective experience - NOT under written law.

Anything else makes no sense. Paul says that love does no harm to one's neighbor. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the feeble human mind, no matter how much one studies written law, to figure out how to completely avoid accidentally harming one's neighbor. Only God has that kind of knowledge, hence we need the Voice. And that Voice won't do us much good unless it convinces/convicts us, causing us to feel certain of God's will.

Your law-based hamartiology makes no sense and is contrary to Scripture itself.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Good Day, All

How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps: - The Cripplegate

Haha! Did you have any idea when you posted this, that it would run this long and be this much 'fun'?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The advice where you told me to ask Abraham, Moses, and Joshua? Sorry I don't pray to the saints, so I'll stick with the rule of conscience.

Are you serious?? Did you think Clare was recommending praying to the saints here??? Is this the most valid response you could come up with????

Naw, my response was more Biblical.

You are too kind.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Useless word games on "authority."

Show me a scenario where the rule of conscience shouldn't govern my behavior.

Deflection

 

[JAL]

Deflection

Nope. I previously demonstrated that your complaints about "final authority" are irrelevant and thus a word game. Ultimately we face a pragmatic issue: what principle guides our conduct? Answer: rule of conscience.

You live by it - otherwise you would have named a scenario in your life warranting departure from it.

Tell me, Mark, when should one try to do evil? And how often?

 

[Clare73]

You are so far off the mark it's not even funny. The written law came by the Voice - in fact the 10 commandments were voiced by God to all Israel before engraved in stone tablets.
The Hebrew word for voice is qowl and it occurs 500 times, always in sonic contexts. The expression, "Obey my voice" (or a similar phrase) occurs 50 times in the OT. Now here's the clincher: the expression, "Obey my laws" is almost never found (unless one is reading a poor translation such as the NIV which essentially ignores the sonic Hebrew word qowl, unjustifiably replacing it with 'law').
Moreover, even the Hebrew word "obey" is SONIC in origin, it means to hearken as unto a voice.
To summarize: the OT saints were under the Voice - a subjective experience - NOT under written law.

You're kidding, right?

The stone tablets were just chopped liver?

Anything else makes no sense. Paul says that love does no harm to one's neighbor. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the feeble human mind, no matter how much one studies written law, to figure out how to completely avoid accidentally harming one's neighbor.

Is it impossible to figure out how to completely avoid harming oneself?
No one is required, nor is it expected, to exceed that standard.

Just don't do to them what you don't want done to you, and
commit to their welfare as you are committed to your own.

It's not rocket science. . .unless you are flying by your own controls instead of God's.

You place yourself under a human standard, and then complain because it is inadequate.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your argument is that given that God can script every action. He does so - as Calvin also states. The problem is that 1 John 4:16 says that God is love and 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all men to be saved. That effectively cancels God predestinating any to eternal torment from before their birth as Calvin proclaims. That should spell the end of Calvinist doctrine - their claiming solo scriptura is just more posturing. Self determination is not in opposition to God, as Jesus states in Mark 16:16 that God has made provision for men - as those who believe and are baptized are saved - that is the good news, the Gospel! The power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16-17). Believe the Gospel without throwing in caveats!

But just how much spiritual sentience do you attribute to the spiritually dead, to claim it is not fair for God to create them for ultimate destruction for God's own purposes?

The Gospel is not just replete with Grace. It IS Grace. There is nothing to it that is not Grace. Do you not understand that it is to God's glory and redeemed man's growth that most are relegated to the Lake of Fire? The Body of Christ, and the Dwelling Place of God, is THAT AMAZING when the sons of God are revealed, that in spite of whatever "love" can validly be assessed as basic toward those who have from birth hated God and thoroughly deserve his sentence of death upon them —oh, yes! It is definitely worth it, and altogether just.

You are going to scream, "NOT FAIR!", at God's mercy toward those he chose to be the members of the Bride of Christ???

 

[JAL]

Is it impossible to figure out how to completely avoid harming oneself?
No one is required, nor is it expected, to exceed that standard.
Just don't do to them what you don't want done to you, and
commit to their welfare as you are committed to your own.

You're kidding, right? Life is that simple? You're faced with a gazillion possible financial investments. If you choose a bad one - or fail to choose one - you've already harmed your family, quite likely. How do you choose? Look it up in Scripture?

You could harm your own family just by failing to choose the best health insurance policy, or the best options on that policy. Same with all the other types of insurance.

Or, you buy a product such as a car. The manufacturing process for this product, it so happens, is leeching deadly carcinogens into the environment. God would prefer that you NOT buy this product, but how would you know it, without the Voice? Look it up in Scripture?

Law-based ethics is absurd because it requires all knowledge to get it right.

The stone tablets were just chopped liver?

In part, the written law is a crutch for we who are not in close touch with the Voice (read this as spiritual immaturity). It's better than nothing, in many cases.

 

[Clare73]

Nope. I previously demonstrated that your complaints about "final authority" are irrelevant and thus a word game. Ultimately we face a pragmatic issue: what principle guides our conduct? Answer: rule of conscience.

You live by it - otherwise you would have named a scenario in your life warranting departure from it.

Tell me, Mark, when should one try to do evil? And how often?

Your "rule of conscience" is a misnomer, when it is simply a reference to God's law as the object of obedience.

You've turned conscience into an interloper.

 

[JAL]

Your "rule of conscience" is a misnomer, when it is simply a reference to God's law as the object of obedience.

You've turned conscience into an interloper.

You're speaking gibberish. You've accomplished literally zilch in the way of explaining how human life and existence can function without feelings of certainty. You wouldn't even drive a car, buy a house, go to church (etc, etc, etc,) without some degree of certainty about the possible benefits.

 

[Clare73]

You're kidding, right? Life is that simple? You're faced with a gazillion possible financial investments. If you choose a bad one - or fail to choose one - you've already harmed your family, quite likely. How do you choose? Look it up in Scripture?

I don't consult my conscience regarding good investments, I consult financial data and operating strategy.

You could harm your own family just by failing to choose the best health insurance policy, or the best options on that policy. Same with all the other types of insurance.

Or, you buy a product such as a car. The manufacturing process for this product, it so happens, is leeching deadly carcinogens into the environment. God would prefer that you NOT buy this product,

And you know that God has not built the environment to deal with deadly carcinogens, how?
And you know there is no way that carcinogens can be neutralized, how?

but how would you know it, without the Voice? Look it up in Scripture?

Law-based ethics is absurd because it requires all knowledge to get it right.

Not talking ethics. . .talking obedience to God's laws. . .I leave the "ethics" of them to God.

In part, the written law is a crutch for we who are not in close touch with the Voice (read this as spiritual immaturity). It's better than nothing, in many cases.

This sounds like Looney-Tunes. . .

Any control issues?

 

[Clare73]

You're speaking gibberish. You've accomplished literally zilch in the way of explaining how human life and existence can function without feelings of certainty. You wouldn't even drive a car, buy a house, go to church (etc, etc, etc,) without some degree of certainty about the possible benefits.

And so now we've migrated to driving being a necessary matter of conscience.

Sounds goofy to me. . .

 

[John Mullally]

My response is more Biblical.

But just how much spiritual sentience do you attribute to the spiritually dead, to claim it is not fair for God to create them for ultimate destruction for God's own purposes?

The Gospel is not just replete with Grace. It IS Grace. There is nothing to it that is not Grace. Do you not understand that it is to God's glory and redeemed man's growth that most are relegated to the Lake of Fire? The Body of Christ, and the Dwelling Place of God, is THAT AMAZING when the sons of God are revealed, that in spite of whatever "love" can validly be assessed as basic toward those who have from birth hated God and thoroughly deserve his sentence of death upon them —oh, yes! It is definitely worth it, and altogether just.

You are going to scream, "NOT FAIR!", at God's mercy toward those he chose to be the members of the Bride of Christ???

God's purpose is found in His word, not in speculation that contradicts God's word! Given that God desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), our God of grace does not create any men for the purpose of relegating them to the lake of fire! That would be satanic (2 Corithians 4:4). Ditch the fatalism/determinism which exalts itself above the knowledge of God (i.e. word of God)! Just because God can do something, doesn't mean that He does that. Again, God's word says that He desires all men to be saved - thus He does not relegate any to hell. Your error stems from believing that God scripts everything - when in fact God has left man's decisions up to man.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,​