If salvation required works would there be any risk to a believer who believe it didn't?

[JohnB445]

There are some Baptists that believe. Anyone who believes a single work has anything to do with being saved will be damned.

And some believe that those who don't believe in eternal security will also be damned.

Some Baptists also tend to be very strict. So even though they believe they are saved through no works at all, they still strive to do good, work hard, and avoid sin. Same with Calvinists.

If it was true that works were part of being saved. Would a Baptist or Calvinist be at any risk even if they did the good works anyways.

And would the Calvinist be at any risk for having the incorrect view about predestination if they were wrong?

Or a Baptist who was uncertain whether people had any choice in the matter of being saved or not?

 

[d taylor]

Well it is fairly simple God's free gift of Eternal Life is received by faith in The Messiah. At some point in a persons life if they believe this, they have received God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Now this person may venture off into false teachings but that will not effect the Eternal Life they have receive from God.

But there is also the person the very obedient person who reads the Bible every night, goes to church all the time, prays daily, tithes, does all the things people think a christian should do. But this person has a big problem they have never trusted in The Messiah. They are always looking to themselves and actions/works they are doing for God, sadly their works will never get them Eternal Life.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God is not in the business of damning people for small differences in belief. Damnation occurs when one persistently rejects the truth, of faith, and the need to depart from iniquity:

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Have a look a why damnation occurs in the following scripture:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

People loved sin more than God, they had pleasure in unrighteousness. Damnation occurs when a man chooses sin persistently over righteousness, be they a Christian who falls away, or an unbeliever who never believed.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But there is also the person the very obedient person who reads the Bible every night, goes to church all the time, prays daily, tithes, does all the things people think a christian should do. But this person has a big problem they have never trusted in The Messiah. They are always looking to themselves and actions/works they are doing for God, sadly their works will never get them Eternal Life.

A person who does all those things, could not do it without faith.

 

[d taylor]

A person who does all those things, could not do it without faith.

Oh they have faith alright, but the faith is in what they are doing.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Oh they have faith alright, but the faith is in what they are doing.

It is just general obedience, they are just doing what they are supposed to do.

2Pe 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[d taylor]

It is just general obedience, they are just doing what they are supposed to do.

2Pe 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter is addressing believers. I was speaking about unbelievers who are relying on or have faith in their works (repentance, obedience, confession church attendance, tithing. baptism, etc..) for salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

There are some Baptists that believe. Anyone who believes a single work has anything to do with being saved will be damned.

And some believe that those who don't believe in eternal security will also be damned.

Some Baptists also tend to be very strict. So even though they believe they are saved through no works at all, they still strive to do good, work hard, and avoid sin. Same with Calvinists.

If it was true that works were part of being saved. Would a Baptist or Calvinist be at any risk even if they did the good works anyways.

And would the Calvinist be at any risk for having the incorrect view about predestination if they were wrong?

Or a Baptist who was uncertain whether people had any choice in the matter of being saved or not?

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of Gods law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to obediently rely on God's law for salvation is to rely on God for salvation, not to rely on ourselves.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an hour, where them doing the work of driving it does not detract from the opportunity to drive it completely being given to them as a gift. In a similar, manner the content of God's gift of eternal life is itself the experience of knowing Him and Jesus, and God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because they never knew them, so the experience of knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life. Sadly, people can want to have the gift of salvation and eternal life while rejecting its content.

 

[Clare73]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21)

Our salvation is from God's wrath on sin (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment, which results in eternal damnation.

 

[Soyeong]

Our salvation is from God's wrath on sin (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment, which results in eternal damnation.

That doesn't change the fact that our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), plus Romans 5:9 is still irrelevant to the point that I was making.

 

[Clare73]

That doesn't change the fact that our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), plus Romans 5:9 is still irrelevant to the point that I was making.

Salvation is from eternal damnation, the result of sin.

The rebirth is the power to faith and away from sin.

 

[Soyeong]

Salvation is from eternal damnation, the result of sin.

The rebirth is the power to faith and away from sin.

Indeed, while we will be saved in the future from God’s wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10), we are being currently being saved from continuing to live in sin (Matthew 1:21, 1 John 3:4, Philippians 2:12, Titus 2:11-14).

 

[JLB777]

There are some Baptists that believe. Anyone who believes a single work has anything to do with being saved will be damned.

And some believe that those who don't believe in eternal security will also be damned.

Some Baptists also tend to be very strict. So even though they believe they are saved through no works at all, they still strive to do good, work hard, and avoid sin. Same with Calvinists.

If it was true that works were part of being saved. Would a Baptist or Calvinist be at any risk even if they did the good works anyways.

And would the Calvinist be at any risk for having the incorrect view about predestination if they were wrong?

Or a Baptist who was uncertain whether people had any choice in the matter of being saved or not?

Calvinisn is a doctrine of a man.


We all must believe and obey the doctrine of Christ.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. 2 John 9





JLB

 

[AbbaLove]

Indeed, while we will be saved in the future from God’s wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10), we are being currently being saved from continuing to live in sin (Matthew 1:21, 1 John 3:4, Philippians 2:12, Titus 2:11-14).

Three times (maybe more) Christ in so many words said "Go and sin no more". Today's hyper-grace (seeker-sensitive Christianity) is an example of more than a few churches overlooking sin. The controversy among theologians is how to interpret Romans 6 & 7. Especially Romans 7:14-25. When Paul says ...

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.​

22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;​

23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.​

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?​

25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.​

Those in [hyper]grace think sin still plagued Paul after his "born again" conversion. While others like yourself and Dr. Michael Brown believe Paul is referring to himself and others before they experienced a life changing born again conversion (Titus 3:5)

PS: Thanksgiving Blessings to You and Yours

 

[Soyeong]

Three times (maybe more) Christ in so many words said "Go and sin no more". Today's hyper-grace (seeker-sensitive Christianity) is an example of more than a few churches overlooking sin. The controversy among theologians is how to interpret Romans 6 & 7. Especially Romans 7:14-25. When Paul says ...

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.​

22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;​

23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.​

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?​

25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.​

Those in [hyper]grace think sin still plagued Paul after his "born again" conversion. While others like yourself and Dr. Michael Brown believe Paul is referring to himself and others before they experienced a life changing born again conversion (Titus 3:5)

View attachment 323864

PS: Thanksgiving Blessings to You and Yours

The Bible speak about our salvation in the past, present, and future senses, so for example, Ephesians 2:8 says that we have been saved, Philippians 2:12 says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and Romans 5:9-10 say that we will be saved from God wrath on the day of the Lord.

In Palms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey his law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Likewise, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus, which is again salvation by grace through faith in the present tense.

I see Christ's instruction to go and sin no more as being the goal for how we should live the rest of our lives, not as the expectation that we will go the rest of our lives without sinning, especially considering that trangressing God's law is still something that we coniune to do while hopefully repenting afterwards.

In regard to interpreting Romans 5-8, it is important to recognize that he spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as in contrasting the Law of God that he serve with his mind with the law of sin that he served with his flesh, and contrasting the Law of the Spirit of life with the law of sin and death, so we should always try to determine which of these categories of law he was speaking about in these chapters rather than just assume that he was always speaking about the Law of God.

 

[Lulav]

There are some Baptists that believe. Anyone who believes a single work has anything to do with being saved will be damned.

And some believe that those who don't believe in eternal security will also be damned.

Some Baptists also tend to be very strict. So even though they believe they are saved through no works at all, they still strive to do good, work hard, and avoid sin. Same with Calvinists.

If it was true that works were part of being saved. Would a Baptist or Calvinist be at any risk even if they did the good works anyways.

And would the Calvinist be at any risk for having the incorrect view about predestination if they were wrong?

Or a Baptist who was uncertain whether people had any choice in the matter of being saved or not?

What comes to mind is that all who believe that there was a man who came to earth and was the sinless son of God and believes that he was hung on a tree for their sins, died, was buried and was resurrected and is the First of the Firstfruits of the redeemed, then yes they would be saved.

However, there are different levels of being with God , it all depends on where you want to be.

Do you love him so much you want to be the greatest in the kingdom, closest to him or you just want to get in 'by the skin of your teeth'? That is called the least in the kingdom.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


Here you see Jesus defining righteousness as one who keeps Gods commandments and teaches them to others. It's not just about believing, even the demons believe but have no righteousness, that comes from obeying, they believe but don't obey.

 

[Lulav]

He also said in that 'Sermon on the Mount'

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

 

[JohnB445]

What comes to mind is that all who believe that there was a man who came to earth and was the sinless son of God and believes that he was hung on a tree for their sins, died, was buried and was resurrected and is the First of the Firstfruits of the redeemed, then yes they would be saved.

However, there are different levels of being with God , it all depends on where you want to be.

Do you love him so much you want to be the greatest in the kingdom, closest to him or you just want to get in 'by the skin of your teeth'? That is called the least in the kingdom.

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


Here you see Jesus defining righteousness as one who keeps Gods commandments and teaches them to others. It's not just about believing, even the demons believe but have no righteousness, that comes from obeying, they believe but don't obey.

I want to be like one of the apostles. I want to be perfect. Although I know I am not perfect I will strive to do my very best.

I am a young man, 24, I got saved at 20 years old.

I would not even dare think about fornication, I want to do the right thing. Marriage first.

I would never steal from anybody, even if I knew I could get away with it. I don't want to.

I take time out of my day to study the Bible, rather than make more money. I was offered overtime at my workplace. I declined. I recognize God will always be the most important, nothing on this earth can compare.

 

[Lulav]

I want to be like one of the apostles. I want to be perfect. Although I know I am not perfect I will strive to do my very best.

I am a young man, 24, I got saved at 20 years old.

I would not even dare think about fornication, I want to do the right thing. Marriage first.

I would never steal from anybody, even if I knew I could get away with it. I don't want to.

I take time out of my day to study the Bible, rather than make more money. I was offered overtime at my workplace. I declined. I recognize God will always be the most important, nothing on this earth can compare.

That is a very good place to be. It will be hard because you will be tempted, just as Jesus was.
But as far as being like the apostles, they weren't perfect, no one is, so don't set yourself up for a fall by comparing them to yourself.

Money and sex are the downfall of many and the #1 tools in the enemies toolbox.

 

[AbbaLove]

Money and sex are the downfall of many and the #1 tools in the enemies toolbox.

Even Soloman with all his wisdom couldn't resist being tempted. Thus a New Covenant (Titus 3:5) was needed to redeem mankind.

James 2:10​

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.​

This scripture is more like something Paul would've said ... yet it's written by James an Apostle to Jewish believers. Writing sometime before 62 CE (before Temple was destroyed) James is certainly aware that a New Covenant was necessary. James, like Peter, is well aware that the Law (613 commands) was an impossible yoke that kept Israel in bondage to sin. These words by James are as much of a conundrum to some of todays' Messianic Jews who believe they should follow as many of the 613 commands as possible for a sense of self- righteousness.

And yet James is 110% correct as is Proverbs 3:5-6. In other words James and Peter were no longer leaning on their own understanding of the 613 laws (when unattainable) knowing that doing so was a frustrating endeavor. In the following scripture Paul's words are as much directed at Jewish Believers in Messiah Yeshua as non-Jewish Beleivers ...

Romans 6:14-16​

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.​

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!​

16 Do you not know that to whatever you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to what you obey—whether to sin resulting in death, or to obedience resulting in righteousness?​

Trusting (a still small voice) in the guidance of His Spirit (Titus 3:5) it is possible to resist the temptation of the enemy. (1 Corinthians 10:13).

James 4:7​

Submit therefore to GOD. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.​