Daniel 12:13 undeniably proves that the AOD fits in the end of this age, not 2000 years ago.

[DavidPT]

For those who might not know what AOD stands for, it stands for the abomination of desolation.

How so that Daniel 12:13 undeniably proves that the AOD fits in the end of this age, not 2000 years ago? Simple, this is how.


Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The first thing to note is what this says. This says at the end of the days. The end of what days? How can it not be meaning these days recorded in the following verses? In case anyone wants to argue with this logic, is anyone going to argue that Daniel rises before these days are even fulfilled first?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


Obviously, since ch 12 mentions no more days beyond the 1335th day recorded in verse 12, this means that the 1335th day is when we have reached the end of the days pertaining to verse 13.

Is anyone going to argue, the fact Daniel has been dead for ages now, that this---for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days---does not mean that he remains bodily dead until he stands in his lot at the end of the days? Is anyone going to argue that when he stands in his lot that this is not because of what is recorded in Daniel 12:2? Is anyone going to argue, that when he stands in his lot at the end of the days, that this is not meaning during/after what is recorded in verse 1? And as to the 1335th day recorded in Daniel 12:12, is anyone going to argue that one can come to that day without it even first involving the 1290 days recorded in verse 11?


Assuming Matthew 24:15-21 is allegedly involving the first century and 70 AD like many interpreters adamantly insist, is anyone going to argue that Daniel stood in his lot at the end of the days involving the first century leading up to 70AD, that he rose from the dead, meaning verse 2 in Daniel 12, right after 70 AD was fulfilled?

Probably no one would argue any of these things above, right? But why not if one is already arguing that Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century leading up to 70 AD? Which then logically means we have to apply both Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 12:12 to that of the first century leading up to 70 AD. Which then logically means that Daniel rose from the dead right after 70 AD. Except there is no logic to any of this and everyone knows it. So why then interpret some of these things in a manner such as this, that it makes nonsense out of what is recorded in Daniel 12?

In order for any interpretation to be a possibility, it can't defy logic, it has to be logical at least. There is nothing logical about applying Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 12:12 to that of the first century and 70 AD since this would mean the end of the days meant in Daniel 12:13, that this has arrived shortly after 70 AD, and that Daniel rose from the dead following 70 AD.

 

[Bob_1000]

The way I see it “the last days” were the last days of earthly Jerusalem having stewardship of the kingdom. When Jesus came he took the kingdom from the flesh descendants and turned it over to the spiritual descendants I.e. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter etc.

At that time the dead in Christ rose with Christ and Daniel and the rest of the OT saints received their inheritance.

 

[DavidPT]

At that time the dead in Christ rose with Christ and Daniel and the rest of the OT saints received their inheritance.

In another thread, I pointed out, in regards to something such as this, that it apparently didn't include Daniel though, the fact Daniel 12:13 indicates that Daniel doesn't stand in his lot until the end of the days, and that he is to remain resting until then. Obviously, the end of the days didn't happen in the first century

 

[Bob_1000]

In another thread, I pointed out, in regards to something such as this, that it apparently didn't include Daniel though, the fact Daniel 12:13 indicates that Daniel doesn't stand in his lot until the end of the days, and that he is to remain resting until then. Obviously, the end of the days didn't happen in the first century

In that view we that are alive and remain are preventing those (Daniel and others) that are asleep in Christ from receiving their inheritance.

Why would the OT believers in Christ need to wait especially when you consider that we receive our inheritance at the death of the earthly body.

 

[DavidPT]

Why would the OT believers in Christ need to wait especially when you consider that we receive our inheritance at the death of the earthly body.

What Scriptures in particular are causing you to arrive at that conclusion? Maybe you are even correct for all I know. But until I see the Scriptures you are basing this on, I can't tell if you are correct or not.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

In another thread, I pointed out, in regards to something such as this, that it apparently didn't include Daniel though, the fact Daniel 12:13 indicates that Daniel doesn't stand in his lot until the end of the days, and that he is to remain resting until then. Obviously, the end of the days didn't happen in the first century

If we go back a few verses, I believe we can see 2 time indicators as to when the time of the end was, along with their new testament fulfillment.
Daniel 12:4But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase.”
In the following, Matthew and Mark reiterate what Daniel says about when the end comes showing what causes men to run to and fro-the gospel of Jesus Christ, the greatest knowledge mankind has or ever will receive, the words that will never pass away.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 16:15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

And the fulfillment.

Romans 10:
17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.” (Also fulfilling Psalms 19:4)


Colossians
6that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.
1:10so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

What Scriptures in particular are causing you to arrive at that conclusion? Maybe you are even correct for all I know. But until I see the Scriptures you are basing this on, I can't tell if you are correct or not.

To answer that, I would point to Revelation 14 after Babylon the Great has fallen.
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
In Matthew 22 God sends His troops to burn Jerusalem down because they rejected Christ's wedding invitation and killed is servants and then sends out the wedding invitation to any and all who would come. What's the difference between that and Revelation 22:17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

 

[5thKingdom]

In order for any interpretation to be a possibility, it can't defy logic, it has to be logical at least. There is nothing logical about applying Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 12:12 to that of the first century and 70 AD since this would mean the end of the days meant in Daniel 12:13, that this has arrived shortly after 70 AD, and that Daniel rose from the dead following 70 AD.

The Abomination of Desolation was "placed" and "set-up" during the FOURTH Kingdom on earth...
the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1], also shown as the Revelation Beast.
The Church Age was the THIRD Kingdom on earth.

The Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast BEGINS when the Last Saint has been "sealed" (saved)
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this Biblical fact.


Rev 7:1-3
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth,
that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east,
having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Salvation continues throughout the Great Commission of the Church Age... until the "End of the Age" [Mat 28:18-20]
AFTER the end of the Great Commission, AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved) and Salvation is complete,
THEN the Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation BEGINS.
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES this Biblical fact.


There is no 1000 year period AFTER the Great Commission and BEFORE the Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation.
AND, since Salvation ENDS when the Last Saint is "sealed"... there would be no Salvation available during this mythical 1000 years.


The "Abomination of Desolation" is "placed" and "set-up" by the PEOPLE living in Daniel's FOURTH Beast (Revelation Beast)
The Great Commission was completed by PEOPLE living in Daniel's THIRD Beast...
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]


/

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The alternative dating starts with the 1260 days of the two witnesses. 30 days is added to their time that starts when the 1st trump sounds. Re:8 has an angel pouring out coals that represents the sealing of all the people who are protected from harm is created in the 1st 6 trumps. The Saul/Paul conversion included a light that ends up allowing Paul to hear the same voice the 11 He baptized. That would be my first choice, everybody who 'catches on' does not die before the Re:20:4 resurrections. For all but the two witnesses it is the same wilderness Jesus was in just after the dove on the shoulder baptism, the dove is the voice of God that Moses listen to. That baptism comes with perfect memory, so did the one Jesus gave as far as quoting Him accurately.

insert verses to the day the two witnesses die.

1290 days already, add enough to get 1345, 45 days, 4 for the time they are in the grave, 40 days for the 12 tribes and the Gentile Church to be glorified at the Eze:47 tree of life setting, add 1 day and this verse is manifest:

Da:12:12:
Blessed is he that waiteth,
and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

All the people that will be alive for the 1,000 years are the same as Jesus was during the 40 days, they learn what the 24 Elders are being taught during the next 1,000 years. Next phase has them living in New Jerusalem and never leaving.

 

[Zao is life]

For those who might not know what AOD stands for, it stands for the abomination of desolation.

How so that Daniel 12:13 undeniably proves that the AOD fits in the end of this age, not 2000 years ago? Simple, this is how.


Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The first thing to note is what this says. This says at the end of the days. The end of what days? How can it not be meaning these days recorded in the following verses? In case anyone wants to argue with this logic, is anyone going to argue that Daniel rises before these days are even fulfilled first?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


Obviously, since ch 12 mentions no more days beyond the 1335th day recorded in verse 12, this means that the 1335th day is when we have reached the end of the days pertaining to verse 13.

Is anyone going to argue, the fact Daniel has been dead for ages now, that this---for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days---does not mean that he remains bodily dead until he stands in his lot at the end of the days? Is anyone going to argue that when he stands in his lot that this is not because of what is recorded in Daniel 12:2? Is anyone going to argue, that when he stands in his lot at the end of the days, that this is not meaning during/after what is recorded in verse 1? And as to the 1335th day recorded in Daniel 12:12, is anyone going to argue that one can come to that day without it even first involving the 1290 days recorded in verse 11?


Assuming Matthew 24:15-21 is allegedly involving the first century and 70 AD like many interpreters adamantly insist, is anyone going to argue that Daniel stood in his lot at the end of the days involving the first century leading up to 70AD, that he rose from the dead, meaning verse 2 in Daniel 12, right after 70 AD was fulfilled?

Probably no one would argue any of these things above, right? But why not if one is already arguing that Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century leading up to 70 AD? Which then logically means we have to apply both Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 12:12 to that of the first century leading up to 70 AD. Which then logically means that Daniel rose from the dead right after 70 AD. Except there is no logic to any of this and everyone knows it. So why then interpret some of these things in a manner such as this, that it makes nonsense out of what is recorded in Daniel 12?

In order for any interpretation to be a possibility, it can't defy logic, it has to be logical at least. There is nothing logical about applying Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 12:12 to that of the first century and 70 AD since this would mean the end of the days meant in Daniel 12:13, that this has arrived shortly after 70 AD, and that Daniel rose from the dead following 70 AD.

There are no chapter and verse divisions in any biblical book's original manuscripts. The chapter and verse divisions we now have were first inserted in 1227 A.D.

Daniel 12:11-12 are out of context to the surrounding verses. In the writing style of ALL the prophets they frequently write about one thing, then about another, then return to the first thing they were writing about in the middle of writing about the 2nd thing. Scholars recognized this writing style in the gospel of Mark, naming it "Markan sandwhiches". But Old Testament apocalyptic literature, such as the book of Daniel, are full of "Markan sanwiches". An example of this is Ezekiel 39:23-29, which repeats what was said in Ezekiel 36:16-38 about the restoration of Israel and Judah, though it returns to the subject of the restoration of Israel and Judah in the middle of talking about the judgment of Gog and Magog.

Daniel 12:11-12 is a Markan sandwich. It's repeating what Daniel said in Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31.

However, Daniel is also relating all of what Antiochus IV was going to do to the saints,

to the end of days that would lead up to the resurrection of the dead (there were no chapter divisions until 1227 A.D) - showing us that the former AoD placed in the sanctuary by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, is a type (forerunner) of the AoD to be placed in the holy place mentioned in Matthew 24:15.

Daniel wrote long before the the rise of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th beasts mentioned in his prophecy. What was he writing about in chapters 8 & 11 and 12?

He was prophesying about the Seleucid Empire, out of which rose Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who ruled the empire from 175 B.C to 164 B.C, and who placed an AoD in the temple (which did not cause either the city or the sanctuary to be destroyed - unlike the abominations mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27, which announced that after the Messiah came, the city and sanctuary would be destroyed).

Regardless, I also do not believe for one second that Matthew 24:15 pertains to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Notice that Matthew 24:15 starts with the word "Therefore .." meaning it pertains to what Jesus began to talk about in Matthew 24:9, and the words "all nations" in Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 24:9 tells us that Matthew 24:15 does not pertain to Matthew 24:1-2.

With regard to Matthew 24:1-2, we need to understand that Daniel 9:26 tells us that the city and sanctuary was going to be destroyed after Messiah came. That's how we know that the abominations in Daniel 9:27 is referring to the abominations associated with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

Jesus repeated this prophecy in Matthew 23:37-38 (and that's why He was pronouncing woe upon the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:13-36); and Jesus was standing in the temple courtyard when He said these things. Then He came out the temple, walked down the mountain and across the Kirdron Valley over to the Mount of Olives, and walked to the top. Remember, no chapter division occurred there between Chapters 23 and 24 until they were inserted in 1227 A.D.

Having reached the top of the Mount of Olives on the same day, Jesus' disciples famously pointed out the magnificence of the temple structure (the Mount of Olives is opposite the Temple Mount) that Jesus had just told the scribes and Pharisees was going to be destroyed (Matthew 23:38).

So Matthew 24:1-2 records the fact that He repeated to His disciples what He had just told the Pharisees - and it repeats what Daniel 9:26 says about the destruction of city and sanctuary after Messiah came.

The AoD placed in the sanctuary by Antiochus IV over a hundred years before Jesus' crucifixion (Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31; and Daniel 12:11-2) did not result in the destruction of either city or sanctuary. Once Antiochus had been ousted by the Maccabees the sanctuary was cleansed and reconsecrated to God. This became a type or forerunner of the AoD that will appear in the sanctuary of God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The context surrounding what Jesus said on top of the Mount of Olives about the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple (Matthew 24:1-2) is what Jesus had been saying to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:13-39, where in verses 37-38 He mentions the coming destruction of the temple, but the context surrounding the AoD in the holy place in Matthew 24:15 (let the reader understand) is what He was telling His disciples about them becoming hated of all nations once the gospel has been preached as a witness to all nations, etc (Matthew 24:9-14) - and verse 15 begins with the word "Therefore .."

In Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 the holy place is also not referring to any physical temple structure, but to the church.

Old Testament faithful:
City: Jerusalem.

New Testament faithful: City New Jerusalem.

Old Testament harlot: Jerusalem that was destroyed.
New Testament harlot: Babylon the Great that is going to be destroyed.

Old: Wrath of God came upon Jerusalem.
New: Wrath of God will come upon Babylon the Great.

Old: Jesus told the saints to flee Judea (Jerusalem was its capital city).
New: Jesus tells the saints to come out of Babylon the Great.

In the same way that one prophecy (the Olivet Discourse) can refer to both periods, so Daniel 7 could say that the 4th beast of Daniel 7 would be destroyed by Christ, and the kingdom given to the saints of the Most High - not because the 4th kingdom itself was destroyed by the return of Christ, but because Daniel's 4th kingdom, i.e the kingdom of Antiochus IV, is a type - and its antitype is the kingdom of Antichrist, and the AoD Antiochus IV placed in the temple, is a type of the AoD in the (New Testament) temple that is mentioned in both Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 .

Like the end of the 4th beast in Daniel Chapter 7, Daniel Chapter 12 refers to both the time of the end (Antiochus IV's kingdom), and the time of the end (the kingdom of Antichrist) - but Daniel 12:11-12 do not refer to the AoD to come, but are repeating what was said in Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 - and this is a type of the coming AoD of the Antichrist mentioned in Matthew 24:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The first thing to note is what this says. This says at the end of the days. The end of what days? How can it not be meaning these days recorded in the following verses? In case anyone wants to argue with this logic, is anyone going to argue that Daniel rises before these days are even fulfilled first?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Absolutely, Daniel's resurrection is linked to the end of those1,335 days. But you haven't touched on when the beginning of those 1,335th days was to start. Daniel tells us (and Christ reminded the disciples) that the beginning of that 1,335 total days would start with two events taking place during the same season of time on the calendar - when #1, a "daily sacrifice is taken away", and #2,"the abomination making desolate is set up".

Luke tells us exactly what that desolating abomination is: "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" (Luke 21:20 cp. Matthew 24:15).

Both of these two things took place once under Antiochus Epiphanes, but Christ also anticipated this same abomination and another removal of a daily sacrifice happening in the future for the disciples, at which time they were to flee Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains.

This "daily sacrifice taken away" in the generation of the disciples was in early AD 66 when Eleazar (the temple governor at the time) did away with the daily sacrifice in the temple that had been made for the empire and the emperor, and forbad any sacrifices to be made by non-Jews. This broke the agreement which Judea had with Rome, which had allowed them the freedom to practice Judaism as a Rome-approved "religio licita".

In the very same season of time, Rome responded to Judea's rebellious insult and slaughter of the Roman troops at Masada and the fortress of Antonia by sending to Jerusalem the Roman Cestius Gallus with his army to put down the rebellion. In response, the Zealot armies gathered to Jerusalem to engage this Roman threat in early October of AD 66.

Together in the same season of time, these two events composed the beginning of Daniel's prophesied 1,335 days. Exactly 1290 days after Cestius Gallus got into Jerusalem and attacked the temple gates, Rome came again in the person of Titus when Passover had begun at Jerusalem. Exactly 45 days after that, at that year's day of Pentecost, the 1,335 days were finished, and Daniel "stood in his lot" at the end of those days.

 

[Jamdoc]

For those who might not know what AOD stands for, it stands for the abomination of desolation.

How so that Daniel 12:13 undeniably proves that the AOD fits in the end of this age, not 2000 years ago? Simple, this is how.


Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The first thing to note is what this says. This says at the end of the days. The end of what days? How can it not be meaning these days recorded in the following verses? In case anyone wants to argue with this logic, is anyone going to argue that Daniel rises before these days are even fulfilled first?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


Obviously, since ch 12 mentions no more days beyond the 1335th day recorded in verse 12, this means that the 1335th day is when we have reached the end of the days pertaining to verse 13.

Is anyone going to argue, the fact Daniel has been dead for ages now, that this---for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days---does not mean that he remains bodily dead until he stands in his lot at the end of the days? Is anyone going to argue that when he stands in his lot that this is not because of what is recorded in Daniel 12:2? Is anyone going to argue, that when he stands in his lot at the end of the days, that this is not meaning during/after what is recorded in verse 1? And as to the 1335th day recorded in Daniel 12:12, is anyone going to argue that one can come to that day without it even first involving the 1290 days recorded in verse 11?


Assuming Matthew 24:15-21 is allegedly involving the first century and 70 AD like many interpreters adamantly insist, is anyone going to argue that Daniel stood in his lot at the end of the days involving the first century leading up to 70AD, that he rose from the dead, meaning verse 2 in Daniel 12, right after 70 AD was fulfilled?

Probably no one would argue any of these things above, right? But why not if one is already arguing that Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century leading up to 70 AD? Which then logically means we have to apply both Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 12:12 to that of the first century leading up to 70 AD. Which then logically means that Daniel rose from the dead right after 70 AD. Except there is no logic to any of this and everyone knows it. So why then interpret some of these things in a manner such as this, that it makes nonsense out of what is recorded in Daniel 12?

In order for any interpretation to be a possibility, it can't defy logic, it has to be logical at least. There is nothing logical about applying Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 12:12 to that of the first century and 70 AD since this would mean the end of the days meant in Daniel 12:13, that this has arrived shortly after 70 AD, and that Daniel rose from the dead following 70 AD.

That's the easy one.. now see that Daniel 8 and 11 is also not something fulfilled over 2000 years ago and is an end times prophecy.
Oh Alexander was a type, or foreshadow.. but there are multiple historical discrepancies between Daniel 8 and Alexander the Great.

We have been taught Daniel wrong for 2000 years.

 

[DavidPT]

Absolutely, Daniel's resurrection is linked to the end of those1,335 days. But you haven't touched on when the beginning of those 1,335th days was to start. Daniel tells us (and Christ reminded the disciples) that the beginning of that 1,335 total days would start with two events taking place during the same season of time on the calendar - when #1, a "daily sacrifice is taken away", and #2,"the abomination making desolate is set up".

Luke tells us exactly what that desolating abomination is: "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" (Luke 21:20 cp. Matthew 24:15).

Both of these two things took place once under Antiochus Epiphanes, but Christ also anticipated this same abomination and another removal of a daily sacrifice happening in the future for the disciples, at which time they were to flee Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains.

This "daily sacrifice taken away" in the generation of the disciples was in early AD 66 when Eleazar (the temple governor at the time) did away with the daily sacrifice in the temple that had been made for the empire and the emperor, and forbad any sacrifices to be made by non-Jews. This broke the agreement which Judea had with Rome, which had allowed them the freedom to practice Judaism as a Rome-approved "religio licita".

In the very same season of time, Rome responded to Judea's rebellious insult and slaughter of the Roman troops at Masada and the fortress of Antonia by sending to Jerusalem the Roman Cestius Gallus with his army to put down the rebellion. In response, the Zealot armies gathered to Jerusalem to engage this Roman threat in early October of AD 66.

Together in the same season of time, these two events composed the beginning of Daniel's prophesied 1,335 days. Exactly 1290 days after Cestius Gallus got into Jerusalem and attacked the temple gates, Rome came again in the person of Titus when Passover had begun at Jerusalem. Exactly 45 days after that, at that year's day of Pentecost, the 1,335 days were finished, and Daniel "stood in his lot" at the end of those days.

At least we both agree Daniel's resurrection is linked to the end of those 1335 days. But as you have pointed out, I have not touched on the beginning of those 1335 days. But even so, the fact at the end of these 1335 days Daniel is resurrected, this already tells me the 1335th day is meaning the literal end of this present age.

You, OTOH, feel something already explains it, not only the end of these 1335 days, but also the beginning of them. And that you feel Daniel stood in his lot at the end of 70 AD, or at least that's what I'm assuming you are meaning. None of this makes sense to me though, the fact Daniel 12:13 is not even possible unless the 2nd coming in the end of this age occurs first. As to Daniel standing in his lot in the end of the days, I see this being when Job will be as well, as an another example. After all, does not the latter day below imply an end of days? The text doesn't say latter days, it says latter day.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Only a bodily resurrection can possibly explain verse 26. After all, that's usually what flesh involves, a literal body.

Do you think the latter day meant in verse 25, the fact it is at that same latter day Job in his flesh shall see God,, that it is meaning at the end of 70 AD, or whenever it is that you are taking the 1335th day to be fulfilled?

 

[DavidPT]

That's the easy one.. now see that Daniel 8 and 11 is also not something fulfilled over 2000 years ago and is an end times prophecy.
Oh Alexander was a type, or foreshadow.. but there are multiple historical discrepancies between Daniel 8 and Alexander the Great.

We have been taught Daniel wrong for 2000 years.

I haven't been taught Daniel 8 and 11 wrong though, since I never agreed to begin with, with any teachings insisting that both of those chapters were fulfilled ages ago. There are clearly timing clues in those chapters. I allow those clues to help me determine some of these things, and apparently so do you, and so do some others. Too bad some of the rest, those insisting both chapters have been fulfilled ages ago, try to explain these timing clues away, as if they are not relevant, as if they apply to an era of time where the time of the end obviously didn't occur. After all, we're all still here, aren't we? Don't know how though, if the time of the end already came and went?

 

[5thKingdom]

I haven't been taught Daniel 8 and 11 wrong though, since I never agreed to begin with, with any teachings insisting that both of those chapters were fulfilled ages ago. There are clearly timing clues in those chapters. I allow those clues to help me determine some of these things, and apparently so do you, and so do some others. Too bad some of the rest, those insisting both chapters have been fulfilled ages ago, try to explain these timing clues away, as if they are not relevant, as if they apply to an era of time where the time of the end obviously didn't occur. After all, we're all still here, aren't we? Don't know how though, if the time of the end already came and went?

This is not hard.
Dan 7 and 8 and 11 are talking about events in the FOURTH "Beast/Kingdom" on earth.
In order to know WHEN these events occur you only need to know WHAT the Fourth Beast represents.


Daniel's Fourth Beast represents:

(1) the Revelation Beast
(2) the Great Tribulation Kingdom
(3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ over the Saints
(4) DURING Satan's "Little Season" after being released from the Pit.


The chronology of the History of Man is simple

the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" NAMED by Jesus in Mat 22:2
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" NAMED by Jesus in Mat 12 [in 7 verses]... the time BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" NAMED by Jesus in Mat 25:1... the time AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]


Isn't it amazing the DEPTH of understanding of the Last Saints
as we "shall understand" the Truth about Daniel's prophecies that WERE "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saints
until we Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"
That's why NONE of these doctrines can be REFUTED...
they can only be DENIED.


Because Daniel's prophecy is in the FOURTH Kingdom of the Great Tribulation and Revelation Beast
we know absolutely that the Saints in Daniel's prophecies are the Last Saints on earth,
the Saints of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast,
the Saints LIVING when Christ Returns.


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


That is what the Gospel teaches is the CONTEXT of Daniel's Fourth Beast.
The Last Saints.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

That's the easy one.. now see that Daniel 8 and 11 is also not something fulfilled over 2000 years ago and is an end times prophecy.
Oh Alexander was a type, or foreshadow.. but there are multiple historical discrepancies between Daniel 8 and Alexander the Great.

Daniel's prophecies are about the FOURTH "Beast/Kingdom" on earth.

Also shown as:
(1) the Revelation Beast
(2) the Great Tribulation
(3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ
(4) DURING Satan's "Little Season".


While this is something NOT understood by the Church
during the Great Commission of the Christian Kingdom... BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
the Great Tribulation is a SEEPARATE "Beast" existing... AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed"
Rev 7:1-3 PROVES that reality.


The Bible PROMISED the TRUTH about Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the TRUTH at the "Time-of-the-End"
Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 PROVES this reality.


Therefore... all the EVENTS in Daniel's Fourth Beast occur to the Last Saints,
the Saints LIVING on earth when the Lord Returns... not Saints who died 500 or 1000 or 1500 years ago.


This is not hard
when you understand the CONTEXT of Daniel's Fourth Beast is the Last Saints on earth;


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

We have been taught Daniel wrong for 2000 years.

The Bible PROMISED the TRUTH about Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all the Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the TRUTH at the "Time-of-the-End"
Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 PROVES this reality.


This means that any OLD interpretation of Daniel's prophecies MUST BE WRONG because it was developed in at time
when the Bible PROMISED the TRUTH remained "closed-up" and "sealed"
This is not hard... the Bible is clear.


Jim

 

[Jamdoc]

I haven't been taught Daniel 8 and 11 wrong though, since I never agreed to begin with, with any teachings insisting that both of those chapters were fulfilled ages ago. There are clearly timing clues in those chapters. I allow those clues to help me determine some of these things, and apparently so do you, and so do some others. Too bad some of the rest, those insisting both chapters have been fulfilled ages ago, try to explain these timing clues away, as if they are not relevant, as if they apply to an era of time where the time of the end obviously didn't occur. After all, we're all still here, aren't we? Don't know how though, if the time of the end already came and went?

Well I just mean the mainstream teaching to the body of Christ, they've said Chapter 8 was about Alexander the Great, and chapter 11 was about Antiochus Epiphanes IV

and we apparently both understand that that teaching is wrong.

 

[DavidPT]

This means that any OLD interpretation of Daniel's prophecies MUST BE WRONG because it was developed in at time
when the Bible PROMISED the TRUTH remained "closed-up" and "sealed"
This is not hard... the Bible is clear.


Jim

While you and I might have some disagreements involving Premil vs Amil, you and I have no disagreement concerning this, though. It is plainly obvious that that is what it would have no mean, since it is clearly a contradiction that any interpretation developed while the words were still closed up and sealed, could be correct. It makes utter nonsense out of closing up the words and sealing them if these words can be understood before they are opened up and unsealed first. Common sense alone should tell anyone that.

What would be the point of some of these prophecies pertaining to A4E if the words were still shut up and sealed at the time? That helps those living during the days of A4E exactly how?

 

[DavidPT]

This is not hard.
Dan 7 and 8 and 11 are talking about events in the FOURTH "Beast/Kingdom" on earth.
In order to know WHEN these events occur you only need to know WHAT the Fourth Beast represents.


Daniel's Fourth Beast represents:

(1) the Revelation Beast
(2) the Great Tribulation Kingdom
(3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ over the Saints
(4) DURING Satan's "Little Season" after being released from the Pit.


The chronology of the History of Man is simple

the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" NAMED by Jesus in Mat 22:2
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" NAMED by Jesus in Mat 12 [in 7 verses]... the time BEFORE the Last Saint is "sealed" (saved)
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" NAMED by Jesus in Mat 25:1... the time AFTER the Last Saint is "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]


Isn't it amazing the DEPTH of understanding of the Last Saints
as we "shall understand" the Truth about Daniel's prophecies that WERE "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saints
until we Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"
That's why NONE of these doctrines can be REFUTED...
they can only be DENIED.


Because Daniel's prophecy is in the FOURTH Kingdom of the Great Tribulation and Revelation Beast
we know absolutely that the Saints in Daniel's prophecies are the Last Saints on earth,
the Saints of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast,
the Saints LIVING when Christ Returns.


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High;
and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


That is what the Gospel teaches is the CONTEXT of Daniel's Fourth Beast.
The Last Saints.


Jim

Do you even realize how many times the kingdom of heaven is mentioned in Matthew? Are you going to divide all of them into these same categories? And what about in other accounts, instead of the kingdom of heaven, it is called the kingdom of God? Some of them are parallel accounts, and instead of saying kingdom of heaven it says kingdom of God. How do you factor that in? And how do you factor in the kingdom of heaven parables that appear universal rather than only applying to a specific time period? For example, the following below.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

What time period category are you going to apply this to?

 

[3 Resurrections]

At least we both agree Daniel's resurrection is linked to the end of those 1335 days. But as you have pointed out, I have not touched on the beginning of those 1335 days. But even so, the fact at the end of these 1335 days Daniel is resurrected, this already tells me the 1335th day is meaning the literal end of this present age.

This 1,335 days cannot really be applied to the end of this present age you and I are currently in. That is because Daniel's interpreting angel told Daniel specifically what the purpose of his receiving the Daniel 10 vision was. In Daniel 10:14, the angel said, "Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall THY PEOPLE (the Israelites) in the LATTER DAYS: for yet the vision is for many days. When the "power of the holy people was shattered" (Daniel 12:7) that concluded the fulfillment of the vision details from Daniel 10 through to the end of Daniel 12:13.

The nerve center which gave power to Judaism was the temple and the priesthood at its core. When those things which had already been laid aside under the New Covenant back in AD 33 were finally being destroyed physically in AD 70, this shattered the power of the holy people.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Only a bodily resurrection can possibly explain verse 26. After all, that's usually what flesh involves, a literal body.

Absolutely. A literal bodily resurrection was definitely what Job was anticipating. And it would be at the end of that 1,335th day, along with Daniel. This would take place when the power of Daniel's people was being shattered, and all those things the angel mentioned had been fulfilled, according to Daniel 12:7. Have you considered the possibility of Christ staging not just a second coming for Daniel, Job, etc., but a third coming as well in our future? This would reconcile the scriptures with each other.

 

[5thKingdom]

Well I just mean the mainstream teaching to the body of Christ, they've said Chapter 8 was about Alexander the Great, and chapter 11 was about Antiochus Epiphanes IV

Remember, the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH about Daniel's prophecies remains "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all the Saints until the Last Saints "shall understand" (and preach) the TRUTH at the "Time-of-the-End"


That means that every old interpretation (including Alexander and Antiochus) MUST BE WRONG
because they were developed in at time when the Bible PROMISES the TRUTH remained "sealed".


You must REJECT the Word of God [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]
in order to PRETEND your "interpretation" of Daniel's prophecies COULD BE TRUE
when they were developed when the TRUTH remained "sealed".


Jim