Daniel 12:13 undeniably proves that the AOD fits in the end of this age, not 2000 years ago.

[Timtofly]

I've seen that proposed online as one solution, but it doesn't really match with the "without father, without mother, without descent" idea. And having "no end of life" doesn't match Shem's 600 year old lifespan either.

The verse was not explaining the literal. The point was explaining how living 500 years seemed when most humans only lived 35 to 40. Many generations came and went while Shem was the king of Salem.

"And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters."

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God."

Being a priest of the most high God, does not come out of thin air. See who held that role after Adam:

"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:"

After Abel there was no one, not even righteous Noah, but after the Flood the only human stepping forward would be Shem. Since you take it as literal, then of course God had to create this human and send him to earth, or go with a son of Noah.

Or you just have one of the sons of Noah living in obscurity for 500 years, when his purpose would be as written in God's Word. Shem was not the oldest, but that has not stopped God from His purposes. Abel was not the oldest. Jacob was not the oldest. Etc.

 

[Timtofly]

Then He tells her to go tell His disciples that He is ascending. Because of the verb tense, the ascension would have to be some time after she tells them "I am ascending".

No, because "ascending" is present. "Will ascend" would be future. Or "will be ascending" would be future.

 

[Andrewn]

I already did by supplying John 20:17 where Jesus told Mary, "...Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go unto my brethren and say unto them I AM ASCENDING to my Father..." This was the first ascension before that morning had dawned. You and I of course agree that Jesus ascended in Acts 1. That makes two ascensions.

You and I talked about this before. Joh 20:17 shows that Jesus had not ascended bodily to the Father before meeting Mary. However, it does not indicate that He ascended bodily before his biblically-recorded ascension 40 days later.

We also have the prophesy of this resurrection-day ascension foretold in Psalms 110:3 (the LXX in particular). This was the day when God would say unto the (ascended) Son, "With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE FROM THE WOMB BEFORE THE MORNING. The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec." This is an echo of Psalms 2:7, which says, "Thou art my Son: THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE." Paul unmistakably identified "this day" as the day when Christ was bodily resurrected (Acts 13:33-34). God had "begotten" the bodily-resurrected Christ in heaven that day, and it was "before the morning" when Christ ascended to His Father.

This shows that God had begotten Christ in heaven before all ages. It does not show that Christ ascended bodily immediately after the Resurrection.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

No, because "ascending" is present. "Will ascend" would be future. Or "will be ascending" would be future.

I have previously pointed that out. My point is that Jesus gives Mary the message: "I am ascending" to tell the disciples. It's a present indicative active verb which happens in the present period of time forward of the disciples receiving the message.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This shows that God had begotten Christ in heaven before all ages.

That is an impossibility. The term "Christ" is the equivalent of the "Messiah" (John 1:41), which Daniel's 70 week prophecy foretold was going to come to His people at the beginning of the 70th week. The WORD existed from eternity past, but did not become manifested in the flesh as the prophesied "Messiah" or "Christ" until the beginning of Daniel's 70th week happened in AD 30.

For Christ to be "begotten" on "THIS DAY" in Psalms 2 was interpreted by Paul as happening at Christ Jesus's bodily resurrection and ascension that day. I believe Paul's Acts 13:33-34 interpretation of what specific day Christ was "begotten" in heaven over any other viewpoint.

The verse was not explaining the literal. The point was explaining how living 500 years seemed when most humans only lived 35 to 40. Many generations came and went while Shem was the king of Salem.

Shem was never said to be the king of Salem. But we have something curious spoken about Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:8. That verse tells us that the one known as Melchizedek was STILL LIVING when Hebrews was being written. Shem did not live until the NT era, but the translated Enoch who did not see death / Melchizedek with "no end of days" would have still been alive then.

 

[Andrewn]

That is an impossibility. The term "Christ" is the equivalent of the "Messiah" (John 1:41), which Daniel's 70 week prophecy foretold was going to come to His people at the beginning of the 70th week. The WORD existed from eternity past, but did not become flesh as the prophesied "Messiah" or "Christ" until the beginning of Daniel's 70th week happened in AD 30.

According to the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of the Father before all ages;

Christ is eternally begotten of the Father. If you don't believe this, your beliefs contradict the Nicene Creed.

 

[3 Resurrections]

According to the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of the Father before all ages;

Christ is eternally begotten of the Father. If you don't believe this, your beliefs contradict the Nicene Creed.

According to John 1:1&14:

"In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with God, and THE WORD was God. The same was in the beginning with God....
"And THE WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

The One known as "THE WORD" was present from eternity past. Do you see "The Son" mentioned anywhere here in this John 1:1 verse? I don't. And the phrase "eternally begotten" is not anywhere found in scripture either. It is an invented phrase. "Eternally begotten" are words that are antonyms of each other; they are mutually-exclusive terms that cannot be equated with one another. It is not possible for something to have eternally existed in the past and still have its commencement point on the calendar.

I am conscience bound to stand on what scripture says about Christ's "begotten" status, and Paul in Acts 13:33-34 interprets Psalms 2's "THIS DAY have I begotten thee" as commencing with Christ's bodily resurrection and His ascension to heaven on that day. Something totally unique was "born" in heaven that morning that had never existed before - a bodily-resurrected, glorified human body form standing face-to-face with His Father. Why should I contradict Paul in favor of those Nicene interpreters who followed centuries afterward? They themselves would not have claimed to be inerrant, nor would they have said they were writing under inspiration of the Spirit when they developed the creed.

 

[Andrewn]

The One known as "THE WORD" was present from eternity past. Do you see "The Son" mentioned anywhere here in this John 1:1 verse? I don't. And the phrase "eternally begotten" is not anywhere found in scripture either. It is an invented phrase. "Eternally begotten" are words that are antonyms of each other; they are mutually-exclusive terms that cannot be equated with one another. It is not possible for something to have eternally existed in the past and still have its commencement point on the calendar.

I didn't expect to encounter in the CF a person who does not believe the Son of God was begotten before all ages and does not hold a Trinitarian view!

Paul in Acts 13:33-34 interprets Psalms 2's "THIS DAY have I begotten thee" as commencing with Christ's bodily resurrection and His ascension to heaven on that day. Something totally unique was "born" in heaven that morning that had never existed before - a bodily-resurrected, glorified human body form standing face-to-face with His Father.

Upon his resurrection, Christ became the first begotten from the dead. This does not mean He ascended to heaven that same day. "This application of the second psalm to the Resurrection is best explained by Romans 1:4. The reference in both passages to David is remarkable (vers. 22, 23). Christ, who was begotten of the Father before all worlds, was declared before men and angels to be the Son of God, when he was raised from the dead in the power of an endless life. Acts 13:33"

Quotation from Pulpit Commentary.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I didn't expect to encounter in the CF a person who does not believe the Son of God was begotten before all ages and does not hold a Trinitarian view!

What I wrote above does NOT deny the Trinity. It affirms it most definitely. God the Father, God the Word, and God the Spirit were continually existing in eternity past. That eternal "WORD became flesh" (John 1:14) at conception in Mary's womb. In the WORD being made flesh by the "body which God had prepared" for this occasion (Hebrews 10:5), the Son of God / Son of Man identity became a reality manifested on earth when He came into the world.

If there was a point in eternity past when Christ was "begotten before all ages", then you are tacitly admitting that there was a point before that "begetting" when a Trinity did not exist. THAT denies the eternal nature of the Trinity.

This occasion of Christ's being conceived as the incarnate Son of God / Son of Man is NOT what constituted Him becoming the "First-begotten". That totally unique "First-begotten" status was fulfilled by Christ at His resurrection-day ascension, according to Paul in Acts 13:33-34. When Christ told Mary "I am ascending to my Father" in John 20:17, it takes real mental gymnastics for a commentator to claim that the newly-resurrected Christ Jesus was NOT going to ascend to the Father in heaven right then, and would wait until 40 days later to ascend for the first time. God did not wait 40 days until He "set His king upon His holy hill of Zion" as our Great High Priest intercessor. He consecrated Christ Jesus as a deathless high priest after the order of Melchizedek in heaven on that very day He arose from the dead and ascended for the first time.

 

[Timtofly]

Shem was never said to be the king of Salem. But we have something curious spoken about Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:8. That verse tells us that the one known as Melchizedek was STILL LIVING when Hebrews was being written. Shem did not live until the NT era, but the translated Enoch who did not see death / Melchizedek with "no end of days" would have still been alive then.

Shem was still alive at that point. He would have been a king for that whole period. Why would another shemite be a king instead of Shem?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Shem was still alive at that point. He would have been a king for that whole period. Why would another shemite be a king instead of Shem?

I'm sorry, but your question makes no sense whatever to me.

Shem was never said in Hebrews 7:8 to be still living at that point in time in the NT days. It was Melchizedek who was said to still be living in those days. Shem died. Melchizedek didn't, because he had "no end of days".

 

[Timtofly]

I'm sorry, but your question makes no sense whatever to me.

Shem was never said in Hebrews 7:8 to be still living at that point in time in the NT days. It was Melchizedek who was said to still be living in those days. Shem died. Melchizedek didn't, because he had "no end of days".

No, you are confusing Melchizedek with Jesus. The whole chapter was a comparison between two human priest, one Jesus and the other was Shem. That verse did not say, that Melchizedek was alive, but that on earth we paid tithes via the dead.

"And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth."

Where is here? Where is there? Here is on earth. Jesus is the eternal priest in heaven.

"And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

This is Jesus. Jesus is the eternal priest in heaven. Melchizedek was known as a seemingly eternal priest on earth. He lived for 502 years after the Flood.


"These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years."

From Genesis 10, we see Japheth was the father of all Mesopotamia. Ham was the father of all Canaanites.

Which left Shem as the king of Salem. His offspring, one being Abraham traveled back and forth between Canaan and Mesopotamia.

Japheth did not carry on the duties of Noah and the alter that was built, Shem did.


"And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

"Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

 

[3 Resurrections]

From Genesis 10, we see Japheth was the father of all Mesopotamia. Ham was the father of all Canaanites.

Which left Shem as the king of Salem. His offspring, one being Abraham traveled back and forth between Canaan and Mesopotamia.

Japheth did not carry on the duties of Noah and the alter that was built, Shem did.

None of that Genesis 10 history identifies Shem as king of Salem or a priest of the most high God. Shem is not Melchizedek.

No, you are confusing Melchizedek with Jesus. The whole chapter was a comparison between two human priest, one Jesus and the other was Shem. That verse did not say, that Melchizedek was alive, but that on earth we paid tithes via the dead.

I never identified Jesus as being Melchizedek. We can know that Jesus is certainly not Melchizedek, because Hebrews 7:15 calls Christ ANOTHER priest that would arise besides Melchizedek that would have the "similitude" of Melchizedek because Christ, like Melchizedek, would have an "endless life".

Where is here? Where is there? Here is on earth. Jesus is the eternal priest in heaven.

"Here" in Hebrews 7:8 was the here and now of the time Hebrews was being written, when the Levitical priests who were subject to death were then receiving tithes. "There" was referring to back then in Abraham's time when the deathless Melchizedek was receiving tithes. The witness about Melchizedek was that he had an endless life. That meant Melchizedek lived even until NT times when Hebrews was being written. If a person is made so that they cannot die, as Melchizedek was - well then, they can't die - ever.