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How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

John Mullally

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I'm thinkin' that applies to your statement above.
Another vascuous response.. Sir, you have posted thousands of times on this forum in support of the terrible midevil lawyer Calvin. who states that God predestines many infants to eternal hell to get himself glory. That is not in scripture and defames God who desires all to be saved (per 1 Timothhy 2:4). On the contraty: everyone who approached Jesus to be healed in the NT was healed. Jesus said if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. The father is not predisposed against anyone. (again 1 Timothy 2:4),
 
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zoidar

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Foreknowledge is of events, not plans.

1) God's foreknowledge (prognosis) as used in the NT refers to (the meaning is) his foreknowledge of what he will do, not what man will do.

2) And in understanding the operation (the how) of his foreknowledge, it's not about some kind of miraculous sight into the future, it is simply God foreknowing events before they happen, because he has decreed they shall happen.

Sorry for the impatience (rudeness). Please forgive me.
No worries! I don't think I will write a response now. Late here and I like my mind to clear up a bit. See you tomorrow!
 
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Clare73

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Another vascuous response.. Sir, you have posted thousands of times on this forum in support of the terrible midevil lawyer Calvin. who states that God predestines many infants to eternal hell to get himself glory. That is not in scripture and defames God who desires all to be saved (per 1 Timothhy 2:4). On the contraty: everyone who approached Jesus to be healed in the NT was healed. Jesus said if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father. The father is not predisposed against anyone. (again 1 Timothy 2:4)
Ma'am, you have me confused with someone else.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, you are saying God's plan was foreknown by Him. God's plan was not foreknown, but man's act to deliver over Christ.

P.s. Please leave out the patronizing part.
God did not know his own plan? I don't think you meant to say that. What do you mean, then?
 
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Mark Quayle

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For your sake, try to accept what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:4 which plainly states that God desires all to be saved! In other words stop telling lies about God saying that he plays favorites (which contradicts Romans 2:11-16) and that God somehow receives glory by sending most of humanity to eternal hell for the sakes of increasing His glory! Again re-read 1 Timothty 2 without the Calvinist glasses! Consider the penalty of defying clear statements in the NT!
2 Corinthians 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,​
Hooo-boy!
 
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John Mullally

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God did not know his own plan? I don't think you meant to say that. What do you mean, then?
God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and is working to that plan - not Calvin;s plan. To that end the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement. God does not favor a few with irresistable grace and let the rest go to perdition for His glory - as Acts 7:51 states that men commonly resist the Holy Spirit. Try to stick to the clear direction in the Bible instead of veering off into your theories and sematic arguments which are as clear as mud.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​
 
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zoidar

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God did not know his own plan? I don't think you meant to say that. What do you mean, then?
I meant His plan was known, not foreknown. Foreknown is refering to: Before time knowing about an event that will take place in the future. By known, I refer to knowing before time about a plan that was made before time. God knew His plan, He didn't need to foreknow it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And now moving the goalposts? Where did you say that foreknowledge is about him writing their names in the book of life?

I apologize I expected that this was common knowledge amongst Christians. The names were written in the book of life before creation this lines up perfectly with being chosen according to His foreknowledge.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I meant His plan was known, not foreknown. Foreknown is refering to: Before time knowing about an event that will take place in the future. By known, I refer to knowing before time about a plan that was made before time. God knew His plan, He didn't need to foreknow it.
The term, "foreknow", is for the sake of our temporal minds. Exactly right, that God didn't need to foreknow it, if "foreknow" is only 'looking into the future'. From his perspective it is already done. It is we who need to separate concepts of "speaking into being" vs "causing by long-chain cause-and-effect". God is not constrained by time. Therefore, he has no need to look into the future to decide what to cause. HE is the cause of the future, and all who inhabit it.

Notice in Hebrews 2, the odd use of tenses:
7 "You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
"Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him."


Here we see completed action, past tense* ("made"), of a temporal assignment ("for a little while"), and again completed action, ("crowned", "put in subjection"), with the difference between God's economy and our temporal economy, pointed at for explanation in, ([But,] "At present, we do not yet see it under subjection.")

*I assume the past tense, for the sake of clarity of my point here. The aorist doesn't have to mean past, it can just as well be future; it only implies a point-of-action, not a present continuing action, nor even a past (or future) "for-a-while" action. In fact, I find it suggestive of the notion of God's timeless economy of operation, that he chose the Greek, which has these curiously un-English tenses, particularly with the aorist that has no reference to our position in a timeline.

And the Hebrews reference here is by no means the only one hinting at this distinction. And some of the references don't even use the aorist to do it.

To me, then, this is relevant to the discussion of his foreknowing and decreeing. He doesn't need to look into the future. He spoke the future into having already happened. We just don't see it that way.

As a side note, God's "non-temporal-based decree" (i.e. God speaking it all into being) point of view here is also relevant to the question of Free Will vs Predestination, and also, 'regeneration prior to faith' vs 'faith prior to regeneration'. If it is (awkwardly, no doubt) descriptive of the reality of the matter, that God has spoken a temporal envelope, perhaps billions of years long or longer, into being with just a word, the envelope of time and all that is within it, (described from within our language), can only be said to be 'already accomplished', 'completed', though "we do not yet see it [that way]".

Now, I suspect the truth of the matter is that this I have described, which is only "a way to look at it", is a lot more incomprehensible to us at present than what I have attempted to describe. But more on that another day, I hope. Thanks for listening, brother.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Look at the context to get a better idea of what I, and of what she, meant when we say a thing. But you go so far as to misquote, what she and I said!

I said, "Indeed, he did choose us according to his plan from before the foundations of the world to choose us." And what did you do? You claim it was, "He chose us according to His plan to choose us." Nothing even to indicate words taken out of the sentence. No, it is not the same thing. My sentence indicates causal sequence of purpose. Not even a nod that direction from you.

Ok quick question when did the plan to save us take place? Before creation or in the future?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Ok quick question when did the plan to save us take place? Before creation or in the future?
From our POV, before creation. From God's POV, irrelevant question. But he gives us a concept to deal with, since we are locked into this temporal economy, which he is not.

Meanwhile, are you going to deal with this, or let it stand? "You and @BNR32FAN want to say that he looks forward in time to see what we are going to do, and uses that to make up his mind what to decree! That's not even a coherent statement! But you make it Bible doctrine. I don't want to call it heresy, but what else can I call it when someone says that God must react to circumstances beyond his control?"
 
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BNR32FAN

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From our POV, before creation. From God's POV, irrelevant question. But he gives us a concept to deal with, since we are locked into this temporal economy, which he is not.

Meanwhile, are you going to deal with this, or let it stand? "You and @BNR32FAN want to say that he looks forward in time to see what we are going to do, and uses that to make up his mind what to decree! That's not even a coherent statement! But you make it Bible doctrine. I don't want to call it heresy, but what else can I call it when someone says that God must react to circumstances beyond his control?"

Free will is biblical it is directly taught in the scriptures so God reacting to our choice is biblical.
 
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BNR32FAN

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From our POV, before creation. From God's POV, irrelevant question. But he gives us a concept to deal with, since we are locked into this temporal economy, which he is not.

Meanwhile, are you going to deal with this, or let it stand? "You and @BNR32FAN want to say that he looks forward in time to see what we are going to do, and uses that to make up his mind what to decree! That's not even a coherent statement! But you make it Bible doctrine. I don't want to call it heresy, but what else can I call it when someone says that God must react to circumstances beyond his control?"

Ever read Revelation 2 & 3 where Jesus is reacting to the sins & heresies of the church?
 
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BBAS 64

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Of course I agree.
Man is born lost and is a servant of the evil one.
Romans 6:16 says that we are slaves and obey the one to whom we present ourselves...either God or the evil one.
Unless we are born again, we are naturally (of our nature) going to be servants of the evil one, no matter how "good" we are in the secular sense.

Man certainly needs God's enlightenment to change his heart.
He must come to believe in God and trust in God for his salvation.
Jesus said:
John 3:19-21
19And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
20All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”


The above verses state that people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil.
But those who do right come to the light so others can see that they are doing God's work.

So it would seem that some can and do go to the light.
James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Romans 12:1
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.



Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are both speaking about the New Covenant.
In the NC we will have the assistance of the Holy Spirit living within us to be our paraclete and help us to obey God.

You also say that the Holy Spirit is in us for the explicit purpose of our walking in His statutes...He is the primary effective cause of our walking and KEEPING His ordinances and doing them.

OK. But if the above sentence is true, does this mean that when we DO sin that the Holy Spirit has failed in His mission to be the cause of our obedience?

You see, if you give ALL the credit to God,,,then we must also give Him some responsibility when we sin.

And, contrary to reformed theology, God cannot bear sin.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

Leviticus 20:23
And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them.

Psalm 5:4-5
For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Colossians 3:5-6
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Good Day, GG101

The above sentence is true...

I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

God is the primary cause of our walking and pour (shall) keeping. That is the purpose ( to Cause) stated for God Putting His Spirit within us.

I do give all the credit to God as he claims it for himself Salvation is of the Lord.

Change ...no it it much more radical than that he removes... and replaces.

A wicked Heart only desires wicked, things we get a new one fashioned by God for His purposes.


Now You may feel so inclined to assign responsibility to God when you sin, but in reality Scripture does not teach that. But it clearly teaches that God is the cause of or walking and keeping.

If you have another understanding of that text it would be nice if you shared it as you have avoided the text it self.

Now we know and Scripture teaches that God could stop us from sinning, why is it he does not?

"Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her."

Yes those who Christ has transferred from the Darkness into Light come because they have been transferred James and Romans are written to believers.

Reformed theology teaches God bears sin well there is a baseless assertion... would you care to provide your primary historical source for this.


In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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Wrong again. Paul never mentions a distinction between Jews and Gentiles in 1 Timothy. There is no backdrop of a Jew vs Gentile contrast in 1 Timothy. 1 Timothy was a letter written from Paul to Timothy, it was not written to correct errors in a Church. Again based upon the Acts 15 decision (i.e. Jerusalem Council) made by the Apostles that was intended to settle the dispute between Jews and Gentiles made by Judaizers, Timothys heritage (half Jew and half Greek), his joining Paul just after the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16), and the actual content of 1 Timothy, the Jew vs Gentile discussion was settled and was not a point of contention as you assert - it was just not accepted by Judaizers. Of course you cannot that as it destroys Calvinism - so you propose some fantasy explanation.

Spare me the pseudo-intellectuallism. We all know when people are speaking about "all men" there can be a limiting context behind that - but when that occurs there will be some previous statement that gives the bounds. No bounds are given anyhere in 1 Timothy. Just because a limiting context can be given, doesn't mean one was made - make your argument that limits to "all men" were made to convert it to "all typs of men" from the 1 Timothy letter itself - don't use argumention from a differnt book of the Bible.

Good Day, John

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for (1) all men; (1.a)For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

All men (1) is defined by these types in the context (1.a) one does not have to look outside the book clearly I did not.


Lets for the sake of augment say that “all Men/ all ” in this context should be defined as you believe every single person ever created. I do not thing the text supports it but let’s posit that.

So does Christ mediate on behalf of all men (every single person ever created) before the throne of God. Would you agree with this understanding of a mediator?

Thayer Definition:

1) one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant

2) a medium of communication, arbitrator

Part of Speech: noun masculine

Is he always (with out fail) successful in His role as mediator on behalf of everyone everywhere all (men) people?


And he gave Himself as a ransom for All (men- every single person ever created)

Thayer Definition:

1) what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom

Part of Speech: noun neuter

As to redeem all (every single person ever created) ?

Was the payment to ransom and redeem (every single person) unacceptable and insufficient , or is the payment made and it redeems/ ramsoms every single person created?

In Him,

Bill
 
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Mark Quayle

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Free will is biblical it is directly taught in the scriptures so God reacting to our choice is biblical.
And....around we go. No. Free will is your inference of 'will' and 'choice', of which the Bible directly speaks. Strangely though, from Scripture I can show God reacting to our choice, but it is not what you make it out to be. You have it backwards. God reacts to what man does, even gets violently angry, but you can't show me where that was not predetermined.

Just a hint, again, as to how this works: God can act within the 'envelope' of time, but is not bound by time like we are. When God 'reacts', it does not imply that he changes, or is impetuous like we are. He 'reacts' according to his nature, and precisely as he has planned from 'before' creation.

God is not like us.
 
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GodsGrace101

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So you're saying that God does not give everyone what he owes them, does not give them what they have earned, their just due?

Who made that rule?

God is free to give his gifts as he so wills, based on nothing but his choice to do so, as was his choice with Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).
If God is just, which He is and I posted many verses,
then He would give to each as he DESERVES.

What we deserve is based on our accepting God's commandments or not.
Accepting Jesus as our Savior or not.

God, being merciful, which He is, would allow His creation (us) to KNOW
HOW to become saved.

A plan from before the beginning of time.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And....around we go. No. Free will is your inference of 'will' and 'choice', of which the Bible directly speaks. Strangely though, from Scripture I can show God reacting to our choice, but it is not what you make it out to be. You have it backwards. God reacts to what man does, even gets violently angry, but you can't show me where that was not predetermined.

Just a hint, again, as to how this works: God can act within the 'envelope' of time, but is not bound by time like we are. When God 'reacts', it does not imply that he changes, or is impetuous like we are. He 'reacts' according to his nature, and precisely as he has planned from 'before' creation.

God is not like us.

No, free will is directly mentioned in the scriptures.

“but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.”
‭‭Philemon‬ ‭1‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Clare73

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If God is just, which He is and I posted many verses,
then He would give to each as he DESERVES.

What we deserve is based on our accepting God's commandments or not.
Accepting Jesus as our Savior or not.
We don't "deserve" anything, we are
born condemned (Ro 5:18),
enemies of God (Ro 5:9),
spiritually blind (Jn 3:3-8),
by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
to whom all things spiritual are foolishness which we cannot understand and do not accept (1Co 2:14),
unable to obey or please God (Ro 8:7-8).

Everything--everything without exception, bar none--is by God's undeserved grace.
We have absolutely no merit. . .zero. . .nada. . .zip. . .
All is pure grace.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We don't "deserve" anything, we are
born condemned (Ro 5:18),
enemies of God (Ro 5:9),
spiritually blind (Jn 3:3-8),
by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3),
to whom all things spiritual are foolishness which we cannot understand and do not accept (1Co 2:14),
unable to obey or please God (Ro 8:7-8).

Everything--everything without exception, bar none--is by God's undeserved grace.
We have absolutely no merit. . .zero. . .nada. . .zip. . .
All is pure grace.

No one is born condemned. We have to sin first. We’ve been through this discussion already. It’s plainly stated right there in Romans 5:12.

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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