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How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

BNR32FAN

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Not according to the Greek, prognosis, where gnosis is "to know" and pro is "before," and it is used only of divine foreknowledge.


Nope. . .I am saying that when Scripture speaks of "God's foreknowledge,"
it is referring to what God is going to do, not to what man is going to do. . .and then I'm saying that
God "knows ahead of time" what he is going to do because he has already decreed that he shall do it.

Translate: God's foreknowledge is not about knowing what man is going to do and responding accordingly;
i.e., man's actions do not determine what God in his foreknowledge knows that he shall do.
Like I said, your saying that God chose us according to His choosing us which is a pointless statement. Why not just say that God chose us and completely leave out the irrelevant use of foreknowledge? Your explanation doesn’t make sense. Oh He chose us because He was going to choose us. Lol what a ridiculous statement.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Of course. The old saying: they weren't saved to begin with.
Even though Jesus clearly says some were saved but fell away.
(Luke 8:13 for example)
Here’s another one of my favorites. Jesus says this to unbelieving Jews who were seeking to kill Him right before He tells them that Moses will be the one who accuses them.

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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GodsGrace101

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Good Day, GG101

Yes I am they are both commands.. The validity of the command is not based on anything other than His authority to command it.

I do believe we make choices and do so freely.

Man can not change his own heart.. he loves darkness and hates light.

Of course I agree.
Man is born lost and is a servant of the evil one.
Romans 6:16 says that we are slaves and obey the one to whom we present ourselves...either God or the evil one.
Unless we are born again, we are naturally (of our nature) going to be servants of the evil one, no matter how "good" we are in the secular sense.

Man certainly needs God's enlightenment to change his heart.
He must come to believe in God and trust in God for his salvation.
Jesus said:
John 3:19-21
19And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
20All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”


The above verses state that people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil.
But those who do right come to the light so others can see that they are doing God's work.

So it would seem that some can and do go to the light.
James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Romans 12:1
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.


Eze 36:25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

Salvation is of the Lord...

He cleans us.. He gives us a new heart, He takes away our old "stony", He gives a new heart of flesh, He puts his Spirit in us for the explicit purpose of our walking in his statues he is the primary effective cause of our walking and keeping His ordinances, and doing them.

He does we are are effected by his doing for the purposes he designs.

God commands us to obey and He is the cause of our doing so. He changes our hearts for his own purpose.

Salvation is of the Lord from start to finish he is the only primary and effective cause.

In Him,

Bill
Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are both speaking about the New Covenant.
In the NC we will have the assistance of the Holy Spirit living within us to be our paraclete and help us to obey God.

You also say that the Holy Spirit is in us for the explicit purpose of our walking in His statutes...He is the primary effective cause of our walking and KEEPING His ordinances and doing them.

OK. But if the above sentence is true, does this mean that when we DO sin that the Holy Spirit has failed in His mission to be the cause of our obedience?

You see, if you give ALL the credit to God,,,then we must also give Him some responsibility when we sin.

And, contrary to reformed theology, God cannot bear sin.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

Leviticus 20:23
And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them.

Psalm 5:4-5
For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Colossians 3:5-6
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Good Day, GG101


The ones He gives to Jesus He gives and they come with out fail... not given means no coming.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

I guess the question is: Who does the Father give to the Son?
God draws all persons...
Romans 1:18-19
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


From the beginning of time God has drawn mankind to Himself.
God made Himself evident to man through His creation so that man has no excuse when he stands before God.

We can know that God exists from His creation,
We can know that God saves from the atonement of His Son, who died for the whole world.
But we must take advantage of that atonement -- or it'll be useless for us.

God writes on their heart of flesh after removing the heart of stone and he teaches and they learn ( God is a very effective teacher and has a purpose. Because God did those thing He is their God and they are his people he is the primary cause of Himself being their God and them being His people.

Agreed.
The Father draws to overcome their inability (unless) and then he gives then to Jesus. There is no text in scripture that point to a dependent condition being need from man ( worship). God does it all from start to finish.

Just to be clear God's people worship him because they are God's people... worship does not make people God's people, God does that.

Do you agree under the NC we do not have to teach or say "you should know the Lord"... why or why not. This must of drove the Jews nuts.

in Him,

Bill
Actually, there's no verse that I can think of that states that man is not able to present himself before God...but many verses to the contrary.
I'll post them if you want, but it's getting late here.

I agree that JUST worshipping does not make one a person of God, but it COULD mean that.
God determines who is saved and who is not, that's not up to us.

Also, I do believe that man has the ability to seek for God.
When God presents Himself, we must reply. It's our reply that saves us or damns us.

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

John 4:10
10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

Revelation 22:17
17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Good Day, GG101


The ones He gives to Jesus He gives and they come with out fail... not given means no coming.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

God writes on their heart of flesh after removing the heart of stone and he teaches and they learn ( God is a very effective teacher and has a purpose. Because God did those thing He is their God and they are his people he is the primary cause of Himself being their God and them being His people.

The Father draws to overcome their inability (unless) and then he gives then to Jesus. There is no text in scripture that point to a dependent condition being need from man ( worship). God does it all from start to finish.

Just to be clear God's people worship him because they are God's people... worship does not make people God's people, God does that.

Do you agree under the NC we do not have to teach or say "you should know the Lord"... why or why not. This must of drove the Jews nuts.

in Him,

Bill
Forgot about the New Covenant.
Being human I'd think that we need some kind of teaching...I mean, even the NC has to be taught/learned.

But in the sense that we will know God ourselves and not have to follow rules and regulations, I do agree with.
In the OT and the Mosaic Covenant man had to remember many rules because there was no love involved.
Jesus died for our sins...this makes us love Him.
In the NC our love for Jesus makes us WANT to obey Him. (although we fail at times).

The Jews were accustomed to following The Law so, yes, most could not understand what Jesus was teaching -
Love.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I agree that they didn’t believe in Calvin’s definition of predestination. Predestination in the New Testament simply means pre ordained or chosen beforehand. God chose us before the foundation of the world according to His foreknowledge. These are the names of those written in the book of life.
Right.
Foreknowledge is biblical.
Knowing something does not cause it to happen.
And yes, we are predestined to be made into Christ's image.
We are predestined to be holy and blameless in His sight,

IOW, the HOW is predestined...
not the WHO.
 
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GodsGrace101

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No doubt when it comes to determining which interpretations are accurate the early church writers from the first 3 centuries are a lot better source than 16th century theologians. We even have first century writers like Polycarp and Clement who actually followed the apostles for years. They most likely learned more from the apostles than we could ever possibly learn by reading the New Testament.
Ignatius of Antioch learned from John.
One of them learned from TWO of the Apostles.
I find it incredible that some are not interested in them.
And they decided the canon of the NT !
 
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GodsGrace101

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Not according to the Greek, prognosis, where gnosis is "to know" and pro is "before," and it is used only of divine foreknowledge.


Nope. . .I am saying that when Scripture speaks of "God's foreknowledge,"
it is referring to what God is going to do, not to what man is going to do. . .and then I'm saying that
God "knows ahead of time" what he is going to do because he has already decreed that he shall do it.

Translate: God's foreknowledge is not about knowing what man is going to do and responding accordingly;
i.e., man's actions do not determine what God in his foreknowledge knows that he shall do.
Foreknowledge means the same biblically and secularly...
It means to know beforehand.
Biblically it means GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING that is going to happen.

Because He knows what is going to happen does not mean He predestined it.
Knowledge is not causation.
 
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John Mullally

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Good Day, John

So you quote a bit Calvin thinking you have a point.... Now you may disagree with Him and that is ok. But one would think that you at least would address the issue he raises with in the whole context of what he is writing about.

I assume you have read Calvin on 1 Tim 2:1-6... Lets look at premier Greek NT Scholar Thomas R. Schreiner on this text


CONTEXT OF 1 TIMOTHY

As most commentators agree, a mirror reading of 1 Timothy suggests that in this epistle the apostle Paul confronts some kind of exclusivism heresy. Perhaps Paul’s opponents relied on genealogies to limit salvation to only a certain group of people, excluding from God’s saving purposes those who were notoriously sinful or those from so-called inferior backgrounds (1:4; cf. Titus 3:9).2 Paul writes to remind Timothy and the church that God’s grace is surprising: his grace reaches down and rescues all kinds of sinners, even people like Paul who seem to be beyond his saving love (1:12–17).

GOD’S DESIRE TO SAVE ALL IN 1 TIMOTHY 2:1–7

Paul’s reflections on his own salvation function as an important backdrop for the discussion of salvation in 1 Timothy 2:1–7, a key passage relating to definite atonement. Some contend that the emphasis on “all” precludes definite atonement.3 Paul begins by exhorting his readers to pray “for all people” (ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων; v. 1). Does Paul refer here to every person without exception or to every person without distinction? The immediate reference to “kings and all who are in high positions” (v. 2) suggests that various classes of people are in view.4Is such a reading of 1 Timothy 2:1–2 borne out by the subsequent verses? Praying for all is “good” and “pleasing” (v. 3), for God “desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν; v. 4). The same question arising in verse 1 surfaces here again: Does “all people” (πάντας ἀνθρώπους; v. 4) refer to every person without exception or to every person without distinction? The Reformed have traditionally defended the latter option.5 Sometimes this exegesis is dismissed as special pleading and attributed to Reformed biases. Such a response is too simplistic, for there are good contextual reasons for such a reading. A focus on all people without distinction is supported by verse 7, where Paul emphasizes his apostleship and his ministry to the Gentiles: “For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.” Hence, there are grounds in the context for concluding that “all people” zeros in on people groups, so that Paul is reflecting on his Gentile mission. In Acts 22:15 (NIV), when Paul speaks of being a witness “to all people” (πρὸς πάντας ἀνθρώπους), he clearly does not mean all people without exception; “all” refers to the inclusion of the Gentiles in his mission (Acts 22:21).6

The parallel with Romans 3:28–30 provides further evidence that Paul thinks particularly of all people without distinction in 1 Timothy 2:4.7 Both Jews and Gentiles, according to Paul, are included within the circle of God’s saving promises. Paul contends that both are justified by faith, for the oneness of God means that there can be only one way of salvation (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5). One of the advantages of the people group interpretation is that it centers on a major theme in Pauline theology, namely, the inclusion of the Gentiles.

Such an interpretation does not seem to be special pleading, for even interpreters unsympathetic to the Reformed position detect an emphasis on Gentile inclusion in response to some kind of Jewish exclusivism (1 Tim. 1:4). For example, Marshall says, “This universalistic thrust is most probably a corrective response to an exclusive elitist understanding of salvation connected with the false teaching. . . . The context shows that the inclusion of Gentiles alongside Jews in salvation is the primary issue here.”8 And Gordon Fee remarks on verse 7, “This latter phrase in particular would seem to suggest some form of Jewish exclusivism as lying at the heart of the problem.”9

In sum, Paul reminds his readers of a fundamental truth of his gospel: God desires to save all kinds of people.10 As William Mounce says, “the universality of salvation [is] the dominant theme” in the paragraph.11 The idea of salvation is supported by the phrase “to come to the knowledge of the truth” (εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν; v. 4), which is simply another way of describing the gospel message of salvation (cf. 2 Tim. 2:25; 3:7; cf. Titus 1:1). The universal reach of salvation flows from a fundamental tenet of the OT and Judaism: there is only one God (cf. Deut. 6:4). Since there is only one God, there is only one way of salvation, for “there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς; 1 Tim. 2:5). God’s saving intentions are universal, including both Jews and Gentiles.

Marshall objects to the Reformed interpretation of all kinds of people, arguing that dividing groups from individuals fails, “since in the last analysis divisions between individuals and classes of humankind merge into one another.”12 But the Reformed view does not exclude individuals from God’s saving purposes, for people groups are made up of individuals. The exegetical question centers on whether Paul refers here to every person without exception or every person without distinction. We have already seen that there is strong evidence (even in Marshall) that the focus is on the salvation of individuals from different people groups. For example, in his paper, “Universal Grace and Atonement in the Pastoral Epistles,” Marshall states,

The pastor [Paul] is emphasizing that salvation is for everybody, both Jew and Gentile. . . . But it does not help the defender of limited atonement, any more than the view that “all” refers to “all kinds of people,” for what the Pastor is telling his readers to do is to pray for “both Jews and Gentiles,” not for the “the elect among Jews and Gentiles.”13

Marshall fails to see that by arguing that prayers are to be made for “Jews and Gentiles” he inadvertently affirms what he earlier denies: the Reformed position of “all kinds of people.” Moreover, Marshall actually misrepresents the Reformed view here, which is not that Paul teaches that our prayers should be limited to the elect. The Reformed position has consistently maintained that we are to pray for Jews and Gentiles, Armenians and Turks, Tutsis and Hutus, knowing that God desires to save individuals from every people group. Knowing this does not mean that we know who the elect are so that we limit our prayers to them.

The interpretation of “all without distinction” should be carried over into 1 Timothy 2:6. Here Christ is designated as the one “who gave himself as a ransom [ἀντίλυτρον] for all.”14 Clearly, we have the idea of Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice, where he gives his life as a ransom for the sake of others.15 It seems best to take the “all” (πάντων) in the same sense as we saw earlier (vv. 1, 4), meaning all kinds of people, since Paul particularly emphasizes his Gentile mission in the next verse (v. 7). Moreover, Paul most likely alludes here to Jesus’s teaching that he gave “his life as a ransom [λύτρον] for many [πολλῶν]” (Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45), which in turn echoes Isaiah 53:11–12. As Alec Motyer demonstrates elsewhere in this volume, the referent of “many” in Isaiah 53, though it encompasses an undefined but numerous group of people, is still necessarily limited—it refers to those for whom redemption is both accomplished and applied—and therefore cannot refer to every single person.16 If these intertextual connections are correct, then Christ giving himself as a ransom for “all without exception” is ruled out.17

First Timothy 2:6 supports the notion that Christ purchased salvation for all kinds of individuals from various people groups. The verse and context say nothing about Christ being the potential ransom of everyone. The language in verse 6—“who gave himself” (ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτόν)—is a typically Pauline way of referring to the cross, and always refers to Christ’s actual self-sacrifice for believers (Rom. 8:32; Gal. 1:4; 2:20; Eph. 5:2; Titus 2:14). It stresses that Christ gave himself as a ransom so that at the cost of his death he actually purchased those who would be his people. The reason Paul can speak of Christ’s death in expansive, all-inclusive terms in 1 Timothy 2:6 is because he sees his ministry as worldwide (2:7; cf. Acts 22:15), his soteriology is universal in the right sense (2:5; cf. Rom. 3:28–30), and he is confronting an elitist heresy that was excluding certain kinds of people from God’s salvation (1 Tim. 1:4). Paul wants to make it clear: Christ died for all kinds of people, not just some elite group.18

Do you deny that God saves all kinds of people?

In Him,

Bill
I am familiar with this argument where Calvinists switch the context of "all men" and "all: in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 to "all types of men" by saying that Paul was contrasting Jew and Gentile. Paul's lsetters to Timothy never mentions anything about contrasting Jews and Gentiles. In addition, Timothy was well versed in that controversy which was resolved by the Apostles much earlier in Acts 15. Timothy who has a Greek father and Jewish mother joined Paul on his journeys in Acts 16, and in Acts 16 Timothy was circumsized in order to avoid controversy with the Judaizers. You are inserting a narrative to change the meaning of a passage that uses plain language.

In 2 Peter 2, Peter speaks about an upcoming apostasy and he states that Christ paid for those false teachers who were on their way to destruction (i.e. hell) - this supports Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 2:6, that Christ gave Himself a ransom for all; where all indicates "all men", not "all types of men" or "the elect".
 
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John Owen

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I've replied to this.
The Father draws everyone.

My explanation includes Jeremiah 31:31
and Romans 1:19 is also an answer to the above.
NO, the Father does not draw everyone. You are reading your Arminian interpretation into that text.
 
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BBAS 64

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I am familiar with this argument where Calvinists switch the context of "all men" and "all: in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 to "all types of men" by saying that Paul was contrasting Jew and Gentile. Paul's lsetters to Timothy never mentions anything about contrasting Jews and Gentiles. In addition, Timothy was well versed in that controversy which was resolved by the Apostles much earlier in Acts 15. Timothy who has a Greek father and Jewish mother joined Paul on his journeys in Acts 16, and in Acts 16 Timothy was circumsized in order to avoid controversy with the Judaizers. You are inserting a narrative to change the meaning of a passage that uses plain language.

In 2 Peter 2, Peter speaks about an upcoming apostasy and he states that Christ paid for those false teachers who were on their way to destruction (i.e. hell) - this supports Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 2:6, that Christ gave Himself a ransom for all; where all indicates "all men", not "all types of men" or "the elect".
Good Day, John

Just so I understand you do not believe that any context would allow for the usage of (ADJ) PAS to mean some of a type?

So you reject the definition of Thayer 2 and 2a for normal usage in any context?

pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective

Certainly Paul makes a distinction of Gentiles in the passage and surly that backdrop of Gentiles would use Jews in contrast.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

So does Christ mediate on behalf of all men before the throne of God. Would you agree with this understanding of a mediator?

Thayer Definition:
1) one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
2) a medium of communication, arbitrator
Part of Speech: noun masculine

Is he always successful in His role as mediator on behalf of everyone everywhere all (men) people?

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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Foreknowledge means the same biblically and secularly...
It means to know beforehand.
Biblically it means GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING that is going to happen.

Because He knows what is going to happen does not mean He predestined it.
Knowledge is not causation.

Good Day, GG101

That depends if you are talking about the verb form of the Greek or the noun form.

Verbs and nouns are not the same in function, nor do they mean the same thing.

In Him,


Bill
 
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John Mullally

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Good Day, John

Just so I understand you do not believe that any context would allow for the usage of (ADJ) PAS to mean some of a type?

So you reject the definition of Thayer 2 and 2a for normal usage in any context?

pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective

Certainly Paul makes a distinction of Gentiles in the passage and surly that backdrop of Gentiles would use Jews in contrast.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

So does Christ mediate on behalf of all men before the throne of God. Would you agree with this understanding of a mediator?

Thayer Definition:
1) one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
2) a medium of communication, arbitrator
Part of Speech: noun masculine

Is he always successful in His role as mediator on behalf of everyone everywhere all (men) people?

In Him,

Bill
Wrong again. Paul never mentions a distinction between Jews and Gentiles in 1 Timothy. There is no backdrop of a Jew vs Gentile contrast in 1 Timothy. 1 Timothy was a letter written from Paul to Timothy, it was not written to correct errors in a Church. Again based upon the Acts 15 decision (i.e. Jerusalem Council) made by the Apostles that was intended to settle the dispute between Jews and Gentiles made by Judaizers, Timothys heritage (half Jew and half Greek), his joining Paul just after the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16), and the actual content of 1 Timothy, the Jew vs Gentile discussion was settled and was not a point of contention as you assert - it was just not accepted by Judaizers. Of course you cannot that as it destroys Calvinism - so you propose some fantasy explanation.

Spare me the pseudo-intellectuallism. We all know when people are speaking about "all men" there can be a limiting context behind that - but when that occurs there will be some previous statement that gives the bounds. No bounds are given anyhere in 1 Timothy. Just because a limiting context can be given, doesn't mean one was made - make your argument that limits to "all men" were made to convert it to "all typs of men" from the 1 Timothy letter itself - don't use argumention from a differnt book of the Bible.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I am familiar with this argument where Calvinists switch the context of "all men" and "all: in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 to "all types of men" by saying that Paul was contrasting Jew and Gentile. Paul's lsetters to Timothy never mentions anything about contrasting Jews and Gentiles. In addition, Timothy was well versed in that controversy which was resolved by the Apostles much earlier in Acts 15. Timothy who has a Greek father and Jewish mother joined Paul on his journeys in Acts 16, and in Acts 16 Timothy was circumsized in order to avoid controversy with the Judaizers. You are inserting a narrative to change the meaning of a passage that uses plain language.

In 2 Peter 2, Peter speaks about an upcoming apostasy and he states that Christ paid for those false teachers who were on their way to destruction (i.e. hell) - this supports Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 2:6, that Christ gave Himself a ransom for all; where all indicates "all men", not "all types of men" or "the elect".
Amen and this statement is also confirmed in 2 Peter 3:9 where Peter not only said that God wishes for all to come to repentance but also that none perish.

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now Calvinists will say that this only refers to the “brethren” to whom Peter was speaking but the context suggests that this is not towards the “brethren” it actually refers to the ungodly. We can know this because the brethren have already come to repentance, it’s the ungodly that need to come to repentance. And it’s right there in the surrounding context.

“Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭3‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Clare73

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Like I said, your saying that God chose us according to His choosing us
Indeed, he did choose us according to his plan from before the foundations of the world to choose us.

which is a pointless statement. Why not just say that God chose us and completely leave out the irrelevant use of foreknowledge?
I didn't bring up foreknowledge, you did.
Your explanation doesn’t make sense. Oh He chose us because He was going to choose us. Lol what a ridiculous statement.
Precisely, just as I gave my daughter my mother's wedding ring because I was going to do so since the day she was born.
 
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Clare73

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Foreknowledge means the same biblically and secularly...
It means to know beforehand.
Biblically it means GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING that is going to happen.
No, Biblically, "foreknowledge" (prognosis)
is used only of God, and
it refers to him knowing his actions, it does not refer to him knowing others' actions.
Because He knows what is going to happen does not mean He predestined it.
Knowledge is not causation.
The NT does not refer to God knowing what is going to happen (foreknowledge) apart from his own actions.
 
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John Mullally

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Indeed, he did choose us according to his plan from before the foundations of the world to choose us.


I didn't bring up foreknowledge, you did.

Precisely, just as I gave my daughter my mother's wedding ring because I was going to do so since the day she was born.
Hello QED,

Per Ephesians 1:1-14 all we can ascertain is that God chose the "faithful in Christ Jesus". From our perspective the Gospel message from Jesus in Mark 16:16 pertains - the promise is to those who believe. Why do you add to that with your predestination which is shrouded in mystery? Of what practical value is Calvinism? If you say it is the assurance of OSAS, there is the possiblity of those who turn away as having been self deluded - you can quote Mark Q on that. Calvinism is all Catch 22 It is shrouded in mystery, As you have a fickle God ordaining all the chaos. If God is ordaining chaos (i.e. includes satanic destruction), he is unjust. Of course God is not unjust - so much for the maze of Calvinism.
 
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zoidar

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No, Biblically, "foreknowledge"
is used only of God, and
it refers to him knowing his actions, it does not refer to him knowing others' actions.

Scripture does not refer to God knowing what is going to happen (foreknowledge) apart from his own actions.
Could you give a few examples of this? It caught my interest.
 
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