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How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

GodsGrace101

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How does it make him UNJUST?
I was discussing unconditional election...
God choosing who will be saved based on nothing we can know and can do nothing in our defense.

How does this make God unjust...
Do we have established that God is a just God? There are plenty of verses to prove this...

Then we have to know what JUST means...I'll say it for those reading along, I think you know.
Just simply means to give to each what he deserves.

So if God picks 1 person to be saved out of 3...
for no reason at all...
How is that just?

Has He given the other 2 persons what they deserve?
By calvinist standards stating that no one deserves salvation,
then the just thing to do would be to pick none of the 3.
This would be justice.
To pick one out of the group is not justice.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I can post Iranaeus destroying Calvin’s theology 1,300 years before Calvin was born.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
Thanks B,
But there's a lot more.
The Apostolic and Early Church Fathers did not believe in predestination.
Predestination was believed by the gnostics, who were heretical of course and banished from the church.
 
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Clare73

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By showing partiality to some. Part of the definition of “just” is impartial. That’s why the scriptures state twice in the New Testament that God does not show partiality.
Justice is about giving everyone his due, what he is owed, what he has earned.
Justice is impartial in that it does not discriminate in giving everyone his due, and which is not necessarily the same for everyone.

Mercy is not justice, it is not based on what is owed. . .is earned. . .or is due.
God owes no one mercy.
And if he owes no one mercy, then he cannot be unjust in giving no one mercy.

There is no partiality of injustice involved in freely giving mercy to some and not all.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Meanwhile, how can anyone at enmity with God, spiritually dead, unable to please God, unable to submit to God's command, even want to be born-again?
Yes they can, be hearing the gospel. The gospel has the power to elicit a response in an individual. Hence Romans 1:16
 
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GodsGrace101

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Not going to look that up. Haven't studied them, as my theology doesn't depend on other believers. Not interested.

I understand to some degree the logic that leads to the idea that it matters what they thought, but I disagree with it. 1. A few is not a representation 2. Even one 'representative' can stray a long way from the truth they once heard. 3. My theology doesn't depend on other believers
This is unfortunate since you're reading a bible the Early Church Fathers compiled and canonized.
Maybe you should learn a little bit about them?
Knowing history can't ever hurt.

They are not just other believers BTW.
They are the earliest theologians we have.
Do you think we know more today than they did back right after Jesus died?

Not to change the topic.
 
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BBAS 64

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Yes. Jesus said this to show what kind of death He would experience.

But does that deny the fact that He DID say that He would draw all men to Himself?
And I've never heard the idea of being drawn to the middle cross - I won't reply to this, it sounds rather silly.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him.

And WHO does the Father draw?

John 6:45 As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

This is referring to the New Covenant of course...
from
Jeremiah 31:31
31“The day is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
32This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the LORD.
33“But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel after those days,” says the LORD. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the LORD.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the LORD. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”


The Father draws everyone...and those who worship Him are given to Jesus for salvation.

Good Day, GG101


The ones He gives to Jesus He gives and they come with out fail... not given means no coming.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

God writes on their heart of flesh after removing the heart of stone and he teaches and they learn ( God is a very effective teacher and has a purpose. Because God did those thing He is their God and they are his people he is the primary cause of Himself being their God and them being His people.

The Father draws to overcome their inability (unless) and then he gives then to Jesus. There is no text in scripture that point to a dependent condition being need from man ( worship). God does it all from start to finish.

Just to be clear God's people worship him because they are God's people... worship does not make people God's people, God does that.

Do you agree under the NC we do not have to teach or say "you should know the Lord"... why or why not. This must of drove the Jews nuts.

in Him,

Bill
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thanks B,
But there's a lot more.
The Apostolic and Early Church Fathers did not believe in predestination.
Predestination was believed by the gnostics, who were heretical of course and banished from the church.
I agree that they didn’t believe in Calvin’s definition of predestination. Predestination in the New Testament simply means pre ordained or chosen beforehand. God chose us before the foundation of the world according to His foreknowledge. These are the names of those written in the book of life.
 
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Clare73

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Thanks B,
But there's a lot more.
The Apostolic and Early Church Fathers did not believe in predestination.
Predestination was believed by the gnostics, who were heretical of course and banished from the church.
However, all that matters is that it is NT apostolic teaching in Ro 8:29-30; Eph 1:5, 11.
 
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BNR32FAN

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This is unfortunate since you're reading a bible the Early Church Fathers compiled and canonized.
Maybe you should learn a little bit about them?
Knowing history can't ever hurt.

They are not just other believers BTW.
They are the earliest theologians we have.
Do you think we know more today than they did back right after Jesus died?

Not to change the topic.
No doubt when it comes to determining which interpretations are accurate the early church writers from the first 3 centuries are a lot better source than 16th century theologians. We even have first century writers like Polycarp and Clement who actually followed the apostles for years. They most likely learned more from the apostles than we could ever possibly learn by reading the New Testament.
 
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Clare73

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I agree that they didn’t believe in Calvin’s definition of predestination. Predestination in the New Testament simply means pre ordained or chosen beforehand. God chose us before the foundation of the world according to His foreknowledge. These are the names of those written in the book of life.
Keeping in mind that the Biblical meaning of divine foreknowledge is not God knowing in advance what man is going to do, but
God knowing in advance what he is going to do, because before the foundations of the world he decreed that he shall do it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Circular. You're doing nothing here but restating your premise. You've done nothing to answer my questions. You didn't even say that you disagree that "God commands all men everywhere to believe" comes at a time when everyone is able to comply, nor how they are able to comply.

The command itself implies that one must have to ability to comply because failure to comply results in eternal punishment. Since we know that God’s judgement is just that means that His judgement must be consistent with the definition of the word just which means fair and impartial. It is not fair at all to punish someone for failing to comply with a commandment if they are absolutely incapable of complying with said commandment. So I did answer your question.

All you have done here is to kick the logical can further down the road. How are any at enmity with God and unable to please him, able to truly humble themselves? What is the ability to truly repent if not the gift of the Holy Spirit? HOW can any decision we make produce valid spiritual results apart from the Spirit in us? Are we of ourselves spiritual players like God?
By hearing the gospel. The gospel has the power to elicit a response in the hearer. Romans 1:16
 
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BBAS 64

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I've replied to this.
The Father draws everyone.

My explanation includes Jeremiah 31:31
and Romans 1:19 is also an answer to the above.
Good Day, GG101

You asked John answered: "Where does it state in the NT (or OT) that man is UNABLE to come to Christ"

No one can come in John 6:44 means man is unable (unless God does something).

No man "can" universal inability to come.


I disagree you are not reading Jer 31 correctly.

He does not under the OC he chose Israel from all the other nations,? They were His by His own explicit choice where they not.

Was he unjust in not picking Egypt as his own?

Why do you think the the NC is any different?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So now the NT writer rounds out the outcome of the NC from Jer.

So the pronoun "their" means every single person ever born in your mind.

If the NC includes everyone (every single person) then you must believe that all are under the NC people and God god does not remember any bodies sins.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BNR32FAN

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Mercy is not justice, it is not based on what is owed. . .is earned. . .or is due.
God owes no one mercy.
And if he owes no one mercy, then he cannot be unjust in giving no one mercy.
His judgement would be unjust if the person is incapable of complying with His commandments. If God commanded that everyone must travel to the farthest reaches of the universe otherwise they will be thrown into the lake of fire to burn for all eternity would that be a just punishment for failing to comply with that commandment if we are absolutely incapable of traveling to the farthest reaches of the universe? If you can call that just punishment then your obviously ignoring the very definition of the word just.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Keeping in mind that the Biblical meaning of divine foreknowledge is not God knowing in advance what man is going to do, but
God knowing in advance what he is going to do, because before the foundations of the world he decreed that he shall do it.
No we’ve been thru this argument and you’ve already been proven wrong. The word prognosis means a prediction. God doesn’t have to predict what He is going to do. Your saying that God chose us according to His choosing us not according to what He foreseen. That’s why this answer doesn’t make any sense because it’s circular.
 
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Clare73

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No we’ve been thru this argument and you’ve already been proven wrong. The word prognosis means a prediction.
Not according to the Greek, prognosis, where gnosis is "to know" and pro is "before," and it is used only of divine foreknowledge.

God doesn’t have to predict what He is going to do. Your saying that God chose us according to His choosing us not according to what He foreseen. That’s why this answer doesn’t make any sense because it’s circular.
Nope. . .I am saying that when Scripture speaks of "God's foreknowledge,"
it is referring to what God is going to do, not to what man is going to do. . .and then I'm saying that
God "knows ahead of time" what he is going to do because he has already decreed that he shall do it.

Translate: God's foreknowledge is not about knowing what man is going to do and responding accordingly;
i.e., man's actions do not determine what God in his foreknowledge knows that he shall do.
 
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zoidar

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My comments were to @BNR32FAN but to answer your question, yes, in effect, to claim that God won't regenerate you until you first have faith (and that of yourselves), claiming, in effect, that your eternal destiny thus hinges on YOUR decision, is to save yourself.
I will give one reason why you are wrong. The thing is it's God's choice to save you, not your own. You can choose Christ by free will, but you are not saved until God chooses to give you His Holy Spirit. If He wanted He could refuse to give you His Spirit. So salvation is always in God's hands, even if libertarian free will is true.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Justice is about giving everyone his due, what he is owed, what he has earned.
Justice is impartial in that it does not discriminate in giving everyone his due.

Mercy is not justice, it is not based on what is owed, is earned or is due.
God owes no one mercy.
And if he owes no one mercy, then he cannot be unjust in not giving anyone mercy.

There is no partiality of injustice involved in freely giving mercy to some and not all.
So you're saying that God is not a just God?
He is also merciful
and He is also love.

But we're speaking about justice here... merciful would make God save all 3 persons and not just 1.

Psalm 89:14
14Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne.
Unfailing love and truth walk before you as attendants.
15Happy are those who hear the joyful call to worship,ggggggggggg
for they will walk in the light of your presence, LORD.
16They rejoice all day long in your wonderful reputation.
They exult in your righteousness.

Acts 10:34
34Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.
35In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right.
36This is the message of Good News for the people of Israel—that there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Deuteronomy 32:4

4He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect.
Everything he does is just and fair.

Isaiah 30:18
18For the Lord is a God of justice;
How blessed are all those who long for Him.

Isaiah 5:16
But the Lord of hosts is exalted in justice, and the Holy God shows himself holy in righteousness.

Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations!



There are plenty more...
 
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GodsGrace101

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I find it interesting that Calvinists will use John 6:44 as evidence that no one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them but then when you get to John 15:6 they conveniently forget all about John 6:44 and claim that those who fail to remain in Christ are tares.
Of course. The old saying: they weren't saved to begin with.
Even though Jesus clearly says some were saved but fell away.
(Luke 8:13 for example)
 
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Clare73

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So you're saying that God is not a just God?
So you're saying that God does not give everyone what he owes them, does not give them what they have earned, their just due?
But we're speaking about justice here... merciful would make God save all 3 persons and not just 1.
Who made that rule?

God is free to give his gifts as he so wills, based on nothing but his choice to do so, as was his choice with Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Of course. The old saying: they weren't saved to begin with.
Even though Jesus clearly says some were saved but fell away.
(Luke 8:13 for example)
Or Galatians 5:4. You have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace. Luke 13:6-9 is another one of my favorite verses that Calvin’s theology contradicts.
 
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