Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[SabbathBlessings]

Are you asking if my post answered the question you asked? If so, No, it doesn't.

But my post was not intended to answer your question, it was intended to clarify what you are asking.

The phrase "a days journey on the Sabbath" does not occur in the King James Bible. So No, there is no scripture that says traveling only a days journey on the Sabbath is an ordinance in the law of Moses.

The phrase "a sabbath day's journey" does occur, though not as part of an imperative.

That's why I was asking for clarification.

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!

I’m asking to see where in the Bible traveling on the Sabbath is prohibited. Regardless of a days journey or longer.

 

[Leaf473]

I’m asking to see where in the Bible traveling on the Sabbath is prohibited. Regardless of a days journey or longer.

Traveling on the Sabbath may be prohibited here.
Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 16 - New King James Version

First off, I agree it's a matter of interpretation. Is that sentence limited to the previous context, or is it a much larger statement made after the earlier context.

The Jewish sages over the centuries considered it a larger statement, and then dealt with this issue: if the Israelites in the wilderness were required to go outside of the camp for toileting, then how far can a person travel and still remain in their place?

I bring up the Jewish sages because I think you had indicated that you considered the Jews to be experts at Sabbath keeping on a different thread.

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Traveling on the Sabbath may be prohibited here.
Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 16 - New King James Version

First off, I agree it's a matter of interpretation. Is that sentence limited to the previous context, or is it a much larger statement made after the earlier context.

The Jewish sages over the centuries considered it a larger statement, and then dealt with this issue: if the Israelites in the wilderness were required to go outside of the camp for toileting, then how far can a person travel and still remain in their place?

I bring up the Jewish sages because I think you had indicated that you considered the Jews to be experts at Sabbath keeping on a different thread.

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!

Yeah, don’t see where it says you cannot travel more than a days journey in that passage. If you want to post the verse that actually says that. . .

 

[Icyspark]

Traveling on the Sabbath may be prohibited here.
Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 16 - New King James Version

First off, I agree it's a matter of interpretation. Is that sentence limited to the previous context, or is it a much larger statement made after the earlier context.

The Jewish sages over the centuries considered it a larger statement, and then dealt with this issue: if the Israelites in the wilderness were required to go outside of the camp for toileting, then how far can a person travel and still remain in their place?

I bring up the Jewish sages because I think you had indicated that you considered the Jews to be experts at Sabbath keeping on a different thread.

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!

Hi Leaf473,

This is a really bad misuse of Exodus 16 in order to have it supposedly validate the idea of "a Sabbath day's journey." Have you taken a moment to consider the implications of the imposition on Exodus 16:29? I believe that SabbathBlessings has already called your attention to the context and it seems that in your response here that you're just waving your hand dismissively, not caring how the context explicitly ties this text to the collection of manna. Instead you are doing as I suggested previously and are looking to the uninspired hedges erected by the Jews in their zeal to protect the Sabbath. Ignoring the context is a bad sign of your willingness to rightly handle the word of God. But let's set that aside for a moment and look at the text in question again and see if you can adjust your current paradigm.

Exodus 16:29
See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” ​

Certainly there isn't anything here about traveling on a journey, let alone a journey lasting a day, or something more strictly concerned with a specific distance. In the Encyclopedia of the Bible they indicate that the "distance has been generally reckoned as 2000 cubits or approximately 2/3 of a mile. Acts 1:12, the only instance of its occurrence in the Bible, specifies its length as the distance from Mt. Olivet to Jerusalem." You can see that Exodus 16:29 doesn't provide for this 2000 cubits distance. However, if one were to do you are doing and strip this text of its context then a strict reading would indicate that no one could leave their place, period (You already alluded to the idea of no one leaving their place to go to the restroom, but then automagically turned around and allowed for that). But the truth of this text can be found in the story of the Sabbath breaker who was put to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath.

Numbers 15:32-36
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.​

This man was not sentenced to death for leaving his place on the Sabbath. Indeed, neither was there guilt found for those who found this man gathering wood and who brought him to Moses and Aaron. Furthermore, there was no issue in the fact that God sent the whole assembly OUTSIDE THE CAMP to stone the man. That's a whole lotta "traveling" going on.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[JulieB67]

This verse does not say it's a continuous Sabbath all the time,

I said it means that worship will be continuous. I said new moon to new moon and sabbath to sabbath is another way of saying month to month and week to week. Once again, you are confusing when to worship with the Sabbath But at that point time will not be a factor and worship will not cease. The Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I said it means that worship will be continuous. I said new moon to new moon and sabbath to sabbath is another way of saying month to month and week to week. Once again, you are confusing when to worship with the Sabbath But at that point time will not be a factor and worship will not cease. The Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.

While I agree we should worship the Lord daily and part of our worship is shown through our obedience to Him. We worship Him when we don’t place anything above Him, we worship Him by only bowing to Him and not false idols, we worship Him when we only use His name in a sacred way and we worship Him when we keep His seventh day Sabbath holy. So us worshiping God daily does not delete our moral obligation to obey His commandments. Part of His commandments is to work six days, so if we kept the Sabbath daily, nothing would get done, which is why the Sabbath worship is reserved from one Sabbath to another (week to week).

Isaiah 66:23 does not use the word continuous and we should not add what’s not there. We will also be working in heaven and God defined His Sabbath as being on the seventh day Exodus 20:10, so on the New Earth and New Heaven the saints will gather together and worship before Him from one Sabbath to another in His presence the way Adam and Eve celebrated the first Sabbath in Eden in the presence of God. Sabbath is made for man and man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26, right before the first Sabbath with God. Genesis 2:1-3. This was God’s perfect plan before sin separated man from God’s presence.

God is particular, so the way He asks us to worship Him we should pay attention. The story of Cain and Abel is a good example, one worshipped the way God wanted, the other the way he wanted. Good lessons to be learned there and other similar stories in scripture. Take care.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Can you please quote the scripture where it says traveling only a days journey on the Sabbath is an ordinance in the law of Moses. I don’t think you have established this point yet.

Sabbath day’s journey is mentioned in Acts 1:12 after Mary rested on the Sabbath (Luke 23:56). What is your view about this instruction being removed (with the scripture's support) if not by Colossians 2:16-17?

The quote is just for reference purposes.

My main point is since the Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance removed in Colossians 2:14, and Jesus would accept practices not mentioned in OT like baptism, and the Apostles also practiced this straight after the accession of Jesus (which means likely they have always been doing this when Jesus was around), then, shouldn’t you be preaching it too because it is not a practice removed in Colossians 2:16-17?

I have reiterated/rephrased my statement before. But will repost it for clarity purposes.

Since the Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance removed in Colossians 2:14, and Jesus would accept practices not mentioned in OT like baptism, and the Apostles also practiced this straight after the accession of Jesus (which means likely they have always been doing this when Jesus was around), then, shouldn’t you be preaching it too because it is not a practice removed in Colossians 2:16-17?

 

[Cornelius8L]

No verse 9's sabbath rest is the same as verse 4 and 5. The Seventh Day in which God rested from all His works vs.4. All His works mention in verse 4 would also include everything that was needed for everyone to experience the Gospel rest mentioned in verse1-3. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That is why in verse 3 it says, "Although the works were finished from the foundation of the world". Which is said in context to the previous clause, "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest".

The rest or the rests mention are referring to the Gospel in Verses 2,3,6,7,8. Verse 10 mentions both.

Please give me more time later to digest your overall thoughts.

V4-5 are OT quotes pointing to v1-3. V1-11 discuss one type of NT rest, using V4-5 as OT references/shadows (if you will).

 

[Cornelius8L]

Anyway, I realized the Hebrews4:1-11 context can be twisted by simply rearranging its reading sequence.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I have reiterated/rephrased my statement before. But will repost it for clarity purposes.

Since the Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance removed in Colossians 2:14, and Jesus would accept practices not mentioned in OT like baptism, and the Apostles also practiced this straight after the accession of Jesus (which means likely they have always been doing this when Jesus was around), then, shouldn’t you be preaching it too because it is not a practice removed in Colossians 2:16-17?

Are you asking shouldn’t we be preaching baptism? Yes, we should as it is an important teaching and something Jesus did as our example to follow. Why it might not be mentioned as much here is because this is the Sabbath and Law forum.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Are you asking shouldn’t we be preaching baptism? Yes, we should as it is an important teaching and something Jesus did as our example to follow. Why it might not be mentioned as much here is because this is the Sabbath and Law forum.

Nope. I was saying Jesus would accept some practices not mentioned in OT, for example, Baptism. Therefore, Jesus might have also been practicing the Sabbath Journey because the Apostles observed the Sabbath Journey straight after seeing Jesus ascend. If Jesus has removed it, they will not keep it. Then, if the Apostles practice it, why is it not preached? So, where in scripture was it removed?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nope. I was saying Jesus would accept some practices not mentioned in OT, for example, Baptism. Therefore, Jesus might have also been practicing the Sabbath Journey because the Apostles observed the Sabbath Journey straight after seeing Jesus ascend. If Jesus has removed it, they will not keep it. Then, if the Apostles practice it, why is it not preached? So, where in scripture was it removed?

Of course Jesus accepted baptism, He told us to be baptized and Jesus was baptized not to cleanse His sin and a sign of living a new life, but as our example to follow. Matthew 28:19-20

You never answered my question- where does it state you can’t travel on the Sabbath more than a days journey anywhere in scripture. There is no such thing as “observed the Sabbath journey” in scripture. We observe the Sabbath day, and the disciples traveling on the Sabbath as they had a history of traveling and preaching God’s Word every Sabbath Acts 18:4 Acts 13:44. Acts 13:42 is not against any law of God.

 

[Leaf473]

Yeah, don’t see where it says you cannot travel more than a days journey in that passage. If you want to post the verse that actually says that. . .

It doesn't say you can't travel more than a day's journey.

It says you have to remain in your place, it says not to go out of your place.

I think it's one of the few instructions - maybe the only one - where the positive and the negative forms are stated back to back.

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

This is a really bad misuse of Exodus 16 in order to have it supposedly validate the idea of "a Sabbath day's journey." Have you taken a moment to consider the implications of the imposition on Exodus 16:29? I believe that SabbathBlessings has already called your attention to the context and it seems that in your response here that you're just waving your hand dismissively, not caring how the context explicitly ties this text to the collection of manna. Instead you are doing as I suggested previously and are looking to the uninspired hedges erected by the Jews in their zeal to protect the Sabbath. Ignoring the context is a bad sign of your willingness to rightly handle the word of God. But let's set that aside for a moment and look at the text in question again and see if you can adjust your current paradigm.

Exodus 16:29
See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” ​

Certainly there isn't anything here about traveling on a journey, let alone a journey lasting a day, or something more strictly concerned with a specific distance. In the Encyclopedia of the Bible they indicate that the "distance has been generally reckoned as 2000 cubits or approximately 2/3 of a mile. Acts 1:12, the only instance of its occurrence in the Bible, specifies its length as the distance from Mt. Olivet to Jerusalem." You can see that Exodus 16:29 doesn't provide for this 2000 cubits distance. However, if one were to do you are doing and strip this text of its context then a strict reading would indicate that no one could leave their place, period (You already alluded to the idea of no one leaving their place to go to the restroom, but then automagically turned around and allowed for that). But the truth of this text can be found in the story of the Sabbath breaker who was put to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath.

Numbers 15:32-36
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.​

This man was not sentenced to death for leaving his place on the Sabbath. Indeed, neither was there guilt found for those who found this man gathering wood and who brought him to Moses and Aaron. Furthermore, there was no issue in the fact that God sent the whole assembly OUTSIDE THE CAMP to stone the man. That's a whole lotta "traveling" going on.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hi Icyspark,

Lots of great points in your post, there. Let's start with the idea of context.

Is Exodus 16 a situation where a narrow context is concluded with a narrow instruction,

or

is it a narrow context that concludes with a broad instruction?

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It doesn't say you can't travel more than a day's journey.

It says you have to remain in your place, it says not to go out of your place.

I think it's one of the few instructions - maybe the only one - where the positive and the negative forms are stated back to back.

The Peace of the Lord be with you always!

If there is no such scripture that says we can only travel one day's journey, then why even state that?

Your other conclusion is taken out of context that we can't go outside which has the whole bible in contradiction and there are no contradictions in scriptures just misunderstandings. This was already explained to you in detail here Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread] and here Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

Anyway, not a topic I am interested in continuing debating, so take care.

 

[Leaf473]

If there is no such scripture that says we can only travel one day's journey, then why even state that?

Your other conclusion is taken out of context that we can't go outside which has the whole bible in contradiction and there are no contradictions in scriptures just misunderstandings. This was already explained to you in detail here Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread] and here Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

Anyway, not a topic I am interested in continuing debating, so take care.

That's fine if you don't want to continue. I'll just explain what I was seeing in the scriptures. If you don't reply anymore, we'll just end with the Peace of the Lord be with you always!
________________________
I didn't say We can only travel one day's journey. What the scripture says is,
"Let every man remain in his place".

I didn't say We can't go outside. What the scripture says is
let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 16 - New King James Version

Our modern ears hear "his place" and think his house or his tent. But the scripture doesn't say that.

So the first question for the reader is, what is a person's place?

 

[Leaf473]

Is Exodus 16 a situation where a narrow context is concluded with a narrow instruction,

or

is it a narrow context that concludes with a broad instruction?

Continuing on...

You might think that if the context is narrow, all the commandments given in it are narrow.

Consider this from Leviticus 19
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

The context is vengeance and bearing grudges. And in the very same sentence, there is a broad commandment.

The Peace of the Lord be with you all!

 

[Leaf473]

So the first question for the reader is, what is a person's place?

Interesting word, the single Hebrew word that is translated "in his place" above.
Strong's Hebrew: 8478. תָּ֫חַת (tachath) -- underneath, below, instead of

According to that page, not once does it refer to building, house, or tent.

The Peace of the Lord be with you all!

 

[Cornelius8L]

Of course Jesus accepted baptism, He told us to be baptized and Jesus was baptized not to cleanse His sin and a sign of living a new life, but as our example to follow. Matthew 28:19-20

You never answered my question- where does it state you can’t travel on the Sabbath more than a days journey anywhere in scripture. There is no such thing as “observed the Sabbath journey” in scripture. We observe the Sabbath day, and the disciples traveling on the Sabbath as they had a history of traveling and preaching God’s Word every Sabbath Acts 18:4 Acts 13:44. Acts 13:42 is not against any law of God.

Not sure why you are ignoring the context of my posts. Let me try again.

Since you imply that Colossians 2:16-17 only refers to human handwriting of ordinances (although the actual translation should be "having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us” in v14), while we say it covers more than that (even the Sabbath Journey that is not an ordinance), so since Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance but practiced by the Apostles even after the accession of Jesus, why SDA is not keeping the Sabbath Journey?

You never answer my question which I have been repeating five times since post#1430 and in posts#1442,1451,1467,1471. I have said Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance since post#1442 and in posts#1451,1467, and I say Jesus would accept practices not mentioned in OT, for example, Baptism. Let me repeat my question for the sixth time. Since Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance but practiced by the Apostles even after the accession of Jesus, why SDA is not keeping the Sabbath Journey while you are using the Book of Acts to rationalize their practice of going to the temple as a Sabbath requirement?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not sure why you are ignoring the context of my posts. Let me try again.

Since you imply that Colossians 2:16-17 only refers to human handwriting of ordinances (although the actual translation should be "having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us” in v14), while we say it covers more than that (even the Sabbath Journey that is not an ordinance), so since Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance but practiced by the Apostles even after the accession of Jesus, why SDA is not keeping the Sabbath Journey?

You never answer my question which I have been repeating five times since post#1430 and in posts#1442,1451,1467,1471. I have said Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance since post#1442 and in posts#1451,1467, and I say Jesus would accept practices not mentioned in OT, for example, Baptism. Let me repeat my question for the sixth time. Since Sabbath Journey is not an ordinance but practiced by the Apostles even after the accession of Jesus, why SDA is not keeping the Sabbath Journey while you are using the Book of Acts to rationalize their practice of going to the temple as a Sabbath requirement?

There is no law for a Sabbath journey to keep. You are adding to what is not there. Do I travel to go to church on the Sabbath, yes, but the requirement is to keep the Sabbath holy, thats what’s written in the commandment. The writer was just providing background. While its not stated, my guess is the apostle was in constant communion with God on his Sabbath journey. Anyway, we can agree to disagree, I’m okay with that. Take care.