Those Who Transgress the Torah, Dishonor YHWH.

[Tolworth John]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by our works, living in obedience to God's law is nevertheless intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, the experience of honoring our parents is intrinsically part of being saved from the experience of not honoring our parents.


If you think that God made the Sabbath for man's benefit, then you should value it as a priceless gift rather than spurn it. There is nothing about the Sabbath being made for man's benefit that means that we aren't obligated to keep it holy. The way to have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong is by obediently following His instructions, while it is refusing to do that which is denying the need for faith and Christ's teachings.


If God is legalistic for giving the Torah and Jesus is legalistic for spending his ministry teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example, when we should be legalistic, however, that is not what legalism refers to. It is not legalism to think that followers of God should follow His commands, but rather it is a sin not to.

Jesus demonstrated to those who expected a literal obiedence to the law, that there was far more than just obedience.

Look again at his comments about an unspiritual follwing of rules.

Paul a phareses also dismissed the literal following of worship only on Saturday.

Legalism isn't ones following of a law, but the insistence that everyone else must follow that law.

You are free to worship God on Saturday, but you are not free to make other Christians worship on Saturday.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus demonstrated to those who expected a literal obiedence to the law, that there was far more than just obedience.

Look again at his comments about an unspiritual follwing of rules.

Paul a phareses also dismissed the literal following of worship only on Saturday.

Legalism isn't ones following of a law, but the insistence that everyone else must follow that law.

You are free to worship God on Saturday, but you are not free to make other Christians worship on Saturday.

I agree that there is more than literal obedience, but that is in addition to literal obedience, not in place of it. God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, which are aspects of His nature/fruits of the Spirit. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about a spiritual principle of righteousness that lead us to take physical actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with what God's law literally instructions, and that leads us to act in accordance with God's righteousness even in situations that are not specifically prescribed by God's law. If someone thought that they understood the spiritual principle of love, so they no longer needed to literally love their neighbor, then they would be missing the point, so correctly understanding the spiritual principles behind God's commands will always lead us to take physical actions that are examples of that principle.

In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so he did not dismiss literally following any of God's commands, nor did he have the authority to countermand God even if he had wanted to do that.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so it is inherent to the Gospel message that everyone else must follow God's law, and this is not legalism, just as it is not legalism to think that everyone else in our country must follow the laws of our country.

The command to keep the 7th day holy is not the command to worship God only on the 7th day. The Israelites worshiped God on every day, which included obeying His command to keep the 7th day holy. Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) and God's law says to keep the 7th day holy (Exodus 20:8-11), so people are free to not keep the 7th day holy if they so choose, but not without sinning. Christ set an example of keeping the 7th day holy and the way to follow him is not by refusing to follow his example.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree that there is more than literal obedience, but that is in addition to literal obedience, not in place of it. God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, which are aspects of His nature/fruits of the Spirit. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about a spiritual principle of righteousness that lead us to take physical actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with what God's law literally instructions, and that leads us to act in accordance with God's righteousness even in situations that are not specifically prescribed by God's law. If someone thought that they understood the spiritual principle of love, so they no longer needed to literally love their neighbor, then they would be missing the point, so correctly understanding the spiritual principles behind God's commands will always lead us to take physical actions that are examples of that principle.

In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so he did not dismiss literally following any of God's commands, nor did he have the authority to countermand God even if he had wanted to do that.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so it is inherent to the Gospel message that everyone else must follow God's law, and this is not legalism, just as it is not legalism to think that everyone else in our country must follow the laws of our country.

The command to keep the 7th day holy is not the command to worship God only on the 7th day. The Israelites worshiped God on every day, which included obeying His command to keep the 7th day holy. Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) and God's law says to keep the 7th day holy (Exodus 20:8-11), so people are free to not keep the 7th day holy if they so choose, but not without sinning. Christ set an example of keeping the 7th day holy and the way to follow him is not by refusing to follow his example.

What are the consequences of not keeping the Saturday Sabbath ??

 

[Leaf473]

Only down to the iota and serif.


(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness (keeping the law) should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

So it seems to me, and I don't know if it seems this way to other people or not, that Torah is designed to be used as a unit.

Kind of like a transmission, take away one or more gears and the whole thing doesn't work right.

So in Deuteronomy 23, the Septuagint says
One born of a prostitute shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord.
Deuteronomy 23 Brenton's Septuagint Translation

Most translations based on the masoretic are going to say something like Illegal Union instead of Prostitute.

Which is correct? It would be tempting to say the masoretic, except that it is several hundred years older than the lxx. But of course, we don't have the lxx, either.

If a priest were to stand up with urim and thummim, we could inquire as to which set of iotas and seraphs were correct.

And it struck me that the translation you quoted uses iota, the smallest letter in Greek.

Comments HARK! or anyone?

 

[HARK!]

I'm objecting to your insistence that Christians ' must ' worship only on Saturday.
Paul, a devout Jew, showed us that we are able to worship on any day, that there was no set day of worship.

I'm objecting to your strawman argument.

 

[HARK!]

What are the consequences of not keeping the Saturday Sabbath ??

Back in the good old days, there would be a good old fashioned stoning.

YHWH seems to take his appointment very seriously.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Back in the good old days, there would be a good old fashioned stoning.

YHWH seems to take his appointment very seriously.

Are you comfortable that your position judges the vast majority of Christians living today?

 

[Carl Emerson]

So it seems to me, and I don't know if it seems this way to other people or not, that Torah is designed to be used as a unit.

Kind of like a transmission, take away one or more gears and the whole thing doesn't work right.

So in Deuteronomy 23, the Septuagint says
One born of a prostitute shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord.
Deuteronomy 23 Brenton's Septuagint Translation

Most translations based on the masoretic are going to say something like Illegal Union instead of Prostitute.

Which is correct? It would be tempting to say the masoretic, except that it is several hundred years older than the lxx. But of course, we don't have the lxx, either.

If a priest were to stand up with urim and thummim, we could inquire as to which set of iotas and seraphs were correct.

And it struck me that the translation you quoted uses iota, the smallest letter in Greek.

Comments HARK! or anyone?

The translation Hark uses was authored by a gentleman who was excommunicated for heresy.

 

[For_Faith]

What are the consequences of not keeping the Saturday Sabbath ??

The consequences of not resting from sin is death. In other words, people who never take a rest (Sabbath) from sinning end up dead.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The consequences of not resting from sin is death. In other words, people who never take a rest (Sabbath) from sinning end up dead.

Yes we need rest to be healthy, but that was not my question.

I asked what are the consequences for not keeping the Saturday Sabbath???

 

[HARK!]

Are you comfortable that your position judges the vast majority of Christians living today?

I'm not judging them. That's YHWH's job. I'm praying for them.

 

[HARK!]

The translation Hark uses was authored by a gentleman who was excommunicated for heresy.

So was Martin Luther. If I was a Catholic; I wouldn't wait around for them to excommunicate me.

It would be nice to get back on topic now.

 

[For_Faith]

I asked what are the consequences for not keeping the Saturday Sabbath???

And Moses went up unto God, and Jehovah called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles wings, and brought you unto myself. 5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: 6and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Jehovah commanded him. 8And all the people answered together, and said, All that Jehovah hath spoken we will do. And Moses reported the words of the people unto Jehovah. 9And Jehovah said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto Jehovah. (Exodus 19:3-9)

So only those people who say they will do all that is agreeable to Jehovah are in a covenant relationship with God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

And Moses went up unto God, and Jehovah called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles wings, and brought you unto myself. 5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: 6and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Jehovah commanded him. 8And all the people answered together, and said, All that Jehovah hath spoken we will do. And Moses reported the words of the people unto Jehovah. 9And Jehovah said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto Jehovah. (Exodus 19:3-9)

So only those people who say they will do all that is agreeable to Jehovah are in a covenant relationship with God.

Are you saying that those who are not keeping the Saturday Sabbath have no relationship with God ???

 

[HARK!]

Are you saying that those who are not keeping the Saturday Sabbath have no relationship with God ???

What is YHWH's relationship with those who dismiss his instructions? The prodigal son comes to my mind; but I would like to see your opinion of the details of such a relationship.

 

[Carl Emerson]

What is YHWH's relationship with those who dismiss his instructions? The prodigal son comes to my mind; but I would like to see your opinion of the details of such a relationship.

I was a prodigal son, in rebellion 11 years.

But it seems in your estimation I never was a son because I didn't keep the Saturday Sabbath at any stage. (except in Israel like everyone else)

Frankly I don't think coming into relationship with God has anything to do with keeping the Law and your insistence that it does is seriously judgemental.

Of note is that the prodigal never wasn't a son, but that is another issue.

Has it occurred to you that God might not let a massive number of those who call on the Name of Jesus to be deceived.

Yet that is your thesis it seems.

I see no biblical foundation for Law keeping to be an entry point for salvation in the New Covenant.

We enter the Kingdom by being born again according to Jesus.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I might add that it seems that your thesis concludes that any young child who prayed to Jesus for salvation, read and loved the scripture is going to Hell if their patents worshiped on Sunday.

This seems a far cry from the Jesus who invited such children to sit on His knee.

 

[HARK!]

I was a prodigal son, in rebellion 11 years.

But it seems in your estimation I never was a son because I didn't keep the Saturday Sabbath at any stage. (except in Israel like everyone else)

Frankly I don't think coming into relationship with God has anything to do with keeping the Law and your insistence that it does is seriously judgemental.

Of note is that the prodigal never wasn't a son, but that is another issue.

Has it occurred to you that God might not let a massive number of those who call on the Name of Jesus to be deceived.

Yet that is your thesis it seems.

I see no biblical foundation for Law keeping to be an entry point for salvation in the New Covenant.

We enter the Kingdom by being born again according to Jesus.

I didn't ask you to present a bunch of strawman arguments, and spread a bunch of lies about me. You might want to reread my post. If you can't answer the question; that's no an excuse to make up stories about me.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I didn't ask you to present a bunch of strawman arguments, and spread a bunch of lies about me. You might want to reread my post. If you can't answer the question; that's no an excuse to make up stories about me.

If I am wrong about your position please correct me...

 

[HARK!]

I might add that it seems that your thesis concludes that any young child who prayed to Jesus for salvation, read and loved the scripture is going to Hell if their patents worshiped on Sunday.

This seems a far cry from the Jesus who invited such children to sit on His knee.

There are some very deceptive notions being conjured up in your imagination. I'll keep that in prayer.