• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,314
16,093
55
USA
✟404,587.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I'm not sure. Perhaps there's an additional force out there which engages with these fields that is beyond matter. Isn't matter just theoretical physics. We can never see it as a physical force. Its just trying to describe the vacuum of space.

This doesn't even come close to answering my simple question about what thing that physicists call "fundamental matter" really isn't in your physics.

It doesn't explain the nature of matter (particles and fields). What is matter anyway. It seems like some ambiguous phenomena ontologically. But nevertheless its posed as something out there that makes up reality, something we assume and attribute a natural cause to.

If its just energy then how do we know that it may have some immaterial cause that is limited to or enclosed in some physical/material world. It could be that theoretical physics is just describing something of an immaterial and supernatural nature and cause like consciousness and the fields you mention are just the expression of this that we try to explain in object terms.

This is just wordy mush...

Its a bit of a mystery really. But I think the materialist view is limited and consciousness makes sense for what we are finding.

...all in support of a predetermined position, not evidence.

I have read that experiments show that humans can interact with the electromagnetic force. They must throw off some energy field themselves that interacts with matter.

Other than our gravitational attraction to the Earth, *EVERYTHING* in ordinary human experience is the electromagnetic force including light (the EM force carrier), the structure of solid matter, pressure (short range electromagnetic repulsion between atoms), sound (pressure variations), etc.

Oh, BTW, the naturalistic view of consciousness is all built on various EM based interactions. All of it.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I have read that experiments show that humans can interact with the electromagnetic force. They must throw off some energy field themselves that interacts with matter.
Can you provide any of these sources?
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,314
16,093
55
USA
✟404,587.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness

OK, let's take this seriously for a moment. If the EM field is the source/substance of consciousness we can consider two possibilities:

1. EM-consc is localized to flesh (and generally speaking to brain tissue) and generate the conciouness we experience. Given that the brain is full of things that interact with EM fields, how do we ensure that the effect we detect arises from the EM field itself and not from the matter (neurons, neurotransmitters, etc.)?

2. EM-consc is globalized and doesn't need flesh or matter to interact with. In which case EM-consc theory would need to demonstrate how the EM field by itself becomes conscious.

(There is also the combination, but both challenges apply then.)



This one reads as the theology of a bad New-Age religion:

ABSTRACT: The concept of wholeness or oneness refers to not only humans, but also all of creation. Similarly, consciousness may not wholly exist inside the human brain. One consciousness could permeate the whole universe as limitless energy; thus, human consciousness can be regarded as limited or partial in character. According to the limited consciousness concept, humans perceive projected waves or wave-vortices as a waveless item. Therefore, human limited consciousness collapses the wave function or energy of particles; accordingly, we are only able to perceive them as particles. With this “limited concept”, the wave-vortex or wave movement comes into review, which also seems to have a limited concept, i.e., the limited projected wave concept. Notably, this wave-vortex seems to embrace photonic light, as well as electricity and anything in between them, which gives a sense of dimension to our brain. These elements of limited projected wave-vortex and limitless energy (consciousness) may coexist inside our brain as electric (directional pilot wave) and quantum (diffused oneness of waves) brainwaves, respectively, with both of them giving rise to one brain field. Abnormality in either the electrical or the quantum field or their fusion may lead to abnormal brain function.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟348,482.00
Faith
Atheist
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married

And what part of those describe the experiments that were done to show that the brain can influence reality? The sources you provide seem to only talk about ideas, I didn't see any point where they described any experiments that were done to support or disprove the particular hypothesis in question.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,715
1,671
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟315,318.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And what part of those describe the experiments that were done to show that the brain can influence reality? The sources you provide seem to only talk about ideas, I didn't see any point where they described any experiments that were done to support or disprove the particular hypothesis in question.
The first article was an overview of some of the theories of consciousness over the years. Its just gives a background but it had several references to experiments and argues for and against each theory.

The second articles does provide references and argues their hypothesis which is exactly what science is about. Not all scientific ideas can be experimented on.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,715
1,671
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟315,318.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I couldn't see anything in those 'theories' that related to or explained any particular feature(s) of consciousness - not least the 'hard problem'; IOW, what explanatory advantage do they give over conventional neuroscience?
I think thy provide more explanatory power than any explanation from neuroscience. Neuroscience is good at explaining how the brain works but it cannot explain conscious experience. No where in the neurons can the experience of pain or joy of music be found.

A mechanistic and quantitative view cannot account for experience nor even measure it in the first place as it is about quantitative explanations as opposed to qualitative experience which science cannot address.

Ouch! A Gish-gallop of quantum woo o_O
There's too much so called Woo out there for it all to be dismissed away as unreal. The ideas mentioned in those articles are not too dissimilar to other ideas that have been proposed by prominent mainstream scientists in one way or another.

I agree we have to scrutinize these ideas as they are hard to verify in traditional terms. But nevertheless we can apply other ways of support like goodness of fit and simple and elegant explanations which seem to support some form of fundamental consciousness to reality.

I think that some form of this idea based on interpreting QM which are already well known such as the observer effect, QBism, Mind or consciousness being fundamental is the key and this is the new frontier in understanding reality. If consciousness is some form of field as you acknowledged then all this article is doing is attempting to explain that field.

After all this idea has been around for millennia and is a common issue across all domains where we need to address the place humans as conscious observers and participators play a central role. Whether its through belief such as Christianity, New age, the ancient Buddhist, in spiritual healing, transcendental meditation, or mainstream science like Wheeler's Participatory Universe.

The traditional and classical view of science has the observer as a passive player as far as reality is concerned and sets out to explain away any agency, will, conscious experience as the result of mechanistic causes that have tricked us into thinking what we experience is real but its all an illusion. But now may are saying our conscious experience is what is real all along and the material world is the illusion.

When you make the claim and argue that an idea that doesn't conform to methodological naturalism is woo you are actually also claiming that science is revealing some ontological truth about reality. But that's beyond scientific verification. So in some ways you could say scientific ideas are also Woo as they appeal to something out there as being real metaphysically.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,715
1,671
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟315,318.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
OK, let's take this seriously for a moment. If the EM field is the source/substance of consciousness we can consider two possibilities:

1. EM-consc is localized to flesh (and generally speaking to brain tissue) and generate the conciouness we experience. Given that the brain is full of things that interact with EM fields, how do we ensure that the effect we detect arises from the EM field itself and not from the matter (neurons, neurotransmitters, etc.)?
I think that's the big question. Methodological naturalism assumes naturalistic causes so it cannot even measure consciousness as its not mechanistic. You can't derive experiences from neurons. That's the Hard problem.

2. EM-consc is globalized and doesn't need flesh or matter to interact with. In which case EM-consc theory would need to demonstrate how the EM field by itself becomes conscious.

(There is also the combination, but both challenges apply then.)

This one reads as the theology of a bad New-Age religion:
If consciousness is a form of field then it will interact with the physical world in some way. Many of these articles are attempts at explaining this and I don't think we should just dismiss them all out of hand. The answer is going to be along these lines. This is the new frontier so its going to take time to understand. But I think science is limited on this issue.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,314
16,093
55
USA
✟404,587.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I think that's the big question. Methodological naturalism assumes naturalistic causes so it cannot even measure consciousness as its not mechanistic. You can't derive experiences from neurons. That's the Hard problem.

Find me something with consciousness that doesn't have neurons and then we can talk.

If consciousness is a form of field then it will interact with the physical world in some way. Many of these articles are attempts at explaining this and I don't think we should just dismiss them all out of hand. The answer is going to be along these lines. This is the new frontier so its going to take time to understand. But I think science is limited on this issue.

And those interactions will be measurable. Yet, they haven't been detected.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrid
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟348,482.00
Faith
Atheist
I think thy provide more explanatory power than any explanation from neuroscience.
That doesn't answer the question. Again: what explanatory advantage do they give over conventional neuroscience?

Neuroscience is good at explaining how the brain works but it cannot explain conscious experience.
Nor has any other field of enquiry - but neuroscience has demonstrated that every reportable feature of consciousness is influenced (determined?) by brain activity. As Chalmers has pointed out, the only puzzle is how it creates a sense of subjective experience.

No where in the neurons can the experience of pain or joy of music be found.
Straw man. Nowhere in water molecules can wetness be found, nowhere in gas molecules can pressure or hurricanes be found, etc. These phenomena are emergent.

A mechanistic and quantitative view cannot account for experience nor even measure it in the first place as it is about quantitative explanations as opposed to qualitative experience which science cannot address.
ISTM that the problem is that objective study can only account for subjective experience via correlation. How else do you think any of the ideas you linked to could explain subjective experience?

There's too much so called Woo out there for it all to be dismissed away as unreal.
Obvious argumentum ad populum fallacy. The quantity of woo has no bearing on its likelihood of being 'real' - but it's a useful indicator of the amount of ignorance and gullibility out there.

I agree we have to scrutinize these ideas as they are hard to verify in traditional terms. But nevertheless we can apply other ways of support like goodness of fit and simple and elegant explanations which seem to support some form of fundamental consciousness to reality.
By all means explain how you would apply 'goodness of fit', and how simplicity and elegance is not just a rule of thumb for deciding between equally good explanations (i.e. that are indistinguishable by the other criteria of a 'good explanation').

I think that some form of this idea based on interpreting QM which are already well known such as the observer effect, QBism, Mind or consciousness being fundamental is the key and this is the new frontier in understanding reality.
Nope. The observer effect has nothing to do with QM interpretations, mind or consciousness are demonstrably irrelevant, and QBism treats the probabilistic wavefunction as epistemic (Bayesian priors), which itself requires some interpretation.

If consciousness is some form of field as you acknowledged then all this article is doing is attempting to explain that field.
I haven't acknowledged that consciousness is some form of field and the article doesn't explain the proposed field.

After all this idea has been around for millennia and is a common issue across all domains where we need to address the place humans as conscious observers and participators play a central role. Whether its through belief such as Christianity, New age, the ancient Buddhist, in spiritual healing, transcendental meditation, or mainstream science like Wheeler's Participatory Universe.
As above, the amount and longevity of beliefs is no indication of their explanatory quality or utility. At best, it comforts people, at worst it's dangerous. Wheeler's Participatory Anthropic Principle isn't mainstream science, and I have nothing against ancient Buddhism or meditation, but they're not explanations for consciousness.

The traditional and classical view of science has the observer as a passive player as far as reality is concerned and sets out to explain away any agency, will, conscious experience as the result of mechanistic causes that have tricked us into thinking what we experience is real but its all an illusion. But now may are saying our conscious experience is what is real all along and the material world is the illusion.
Don't confuse methodology with metaphysics. Of course conscious experience is real - it's how we're able to have this discussion.

To what degree the material world is an illusion is a matter of viewpoint and interpretation - all your brain receives are neural spike trains, it generates the material world you experience from them; sensations such as colour, taste, odor, etc., could be called illusory, as they have no objective existence; you can have real experiences that don't correspond to reality - that's what 'illusion' generally means. But be careful - your experience of the world generally has some basis - if you try to fly from a high window, or walk through walls, or step in front of traffic to test the illusory nature of the material world, you're likely to discover the distinction.

When you make the claim and argue that an idea that doesn't conform to methodological naturalism is woo you are actually also claiming that science is revealing some ontological truth about reality. But that's beyond scientific verification. So in some ways you could say scientific ideas are also Woo as they appeal to something out there as being real metaphysically.
Well, I didn't make that claim, the ideas I called 'woo' were incorrectly or deceitfully using the language of methodological naturalism (science), making them pseudoscience; scientific ideas are explanatory models for empirical observations, whether or not they represent metaphysical reality is the domain of philosophy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

partinobodycular

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,616
1,043
partinowherecular
✟135,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
If God was fallible, we could see the use of trial and error, to create life on this (and other) planets.

But we don't see trial and error.
Well that's obviously wrong, seeing as how 99.9% of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct, trial and error would seem to be the method of choice.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hans Blaster
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,383
704
46
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
Well that's obviously wrong, seeing as how 99.9% of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct, trial and error would seem to be the method of choice.

Has matter ceased to be conserved? Are souls destroyed upon reaching Heaven? Are we told that we must pay for our sins immediately?

You are looking for a method that comes and goes - that's how the Devil works.

God is the same today, now and forever - if God had been revealed to you, you would know it?
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,314
16,093
55
USA
✟404,587.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Has matter ceased to be conserved?

What does this have to do with "God"?

Why would a "God" need to conserve matter?

Are souls destroyed upon reaching Heaven? Are we told that we must pay for our sins immediately?

You are looking for a method that comes and goes - that's how the Devil works.

God is the same today, now and forever - if God had been revealed to you, you would know it?

None of this is relevant. It is just a bunch of claims unrelated to the topic.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,383
704
46
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
What does this have to do with "God"?

Why would a "God" need to conserve matter?

If God did not conserve matter, souls would not survive.

Souls survive, ergo there is a God conserving the environment that created them.


None of this is relevant. It is just a bunch of claims unrelated to the topic.

It is a typological claim, about what can be discovered.

Dawkins is all too happy to suppose there might be alien life, but if what I said is true, he will never find the trial and error that created them (those aliens) - as if to say "trial and error on an alien world, proved life on Earth artificial".
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Hood was a loser.
Mar 11, 2017
21,314
16,093
55
USA
✟404,587.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If God did not conserve matter, souls would not survive.

Souls survive, ergo there is a God conserving the environment that created them.

These are *CLAIMS*, not evidence. Especially in a thread the purports to "prove god exists" based on scientific evidence.

It is a typological claim, about what can be discovered.

Dawkins is all too happy to suppose there might be alien life, but if what I said is true, he will never find the trial and error that created them (those aliens) - as if to say "trial and error on an alien world, proved life on Earth artificial".

What do Dawkins and aliens have to do with anything, especially you "soul destruction" stuff?
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
If God was fallible, we could see the use of trial and error, to create life on this (and other) planets.

But we don't see trial and error.

The whole concept of evolution is trial and error, and there's a huge amount of evidence for it.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,383
704
46
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
The whole concept of evolution is trial and error, and there's a huge amount of evidence for it.

Trial and error assumes that that which is evolving has a concept that it is evolving.

We don't see that (creatures remain largely oblivious, to which evolution is where).
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Trial and error assumes that that which is evolving has a concept that it is evolving.

We don't see that (creatures remain largely oblivious, to which evolution is where).

That is completely incorrect.

Evolution needs the following:

  • Organisms must be able to reproduce themselves.
  • The offspring must have some variation from the parent.
  • The variations make the organism more likely or less likely to survive.
  • The organisms that are more likely to survive will pass on the genes that caused them to be more likely to survive more often than the organisms less likely to survive will pass on their genes.

Evolution does NOT need for the organisms to have any concept of what evolution is.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.