SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

[Adventist Dissident]

I read through his very long and extensive post, and I failed to understand what his actual point was about man having or not having an immortal soul/spirit. He seemed to be implying that only born again believers have an immortal spirit, and that unconverted sinners will just cease to exist after death.

But this contradicts Peter who said that after Jesus died, he went down to Hades and preached to the souls in prison. The accepted interpretation is that Jesus went to proclaim His victory to those who died as the result of the Flood. These were unrepentant sinners, who according to our friend's implication should not have existed after they died in the Flood.

not sure how you came to that conclusion. I believe the soul exists and is unconcious. text like 1 peter only make sense in the soul sleep option

 

[BobRyan]

so lets try it again what do these text mean


1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:28, “Do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

It means that your body is not your soul. Those who kill the body are not killing the soul - rather it goes dormant but still exists. A soul that sleeps must exist to sleep.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

It means that your body is not your soul. Those who kill the body are not killing the soul - rather it goes dormant but still exists. A soul that sleeps must exist to sleep.

hey someone who can read the text and give me a straight answer. Well done. that is how it is done. take some pointer here.

 

[BobRyan]

To believe there is "something" within us that never dies is to believe we are immortal.

That is true - if we claim that it is a property of our own sinful fallen nature - that we never die - then we are claiming to be immortal.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

not sure how you came to that conclusion. I believe the soul exists and is unconcious. text like 1 peter only make sense in the soul sleep option

If we view Jesus' story about the Rich Man and Lazarus, we see that neither were unconscious. The rich man was fully conscious where he was, so if Jesus believed in "soul sleep" between death and resurrection then He wouldn't have told that story, because the story would not have made sense. Also, if all the souls in Hades were asleep, the information about Jesus going there to preach to them about His victory would not have made any sense. I know that some preachers tend to send people to sleep in the congregation, but there are people still awake to hear his message to make the preaching worthwhile.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

If we view Jesus' story about the Rich Man and Lazarus, we see that neither were unconscious. The rich man was fully conscious where he was, so if Jesus believed in "soul sleep" between death and resurrection then He wouldn't have told that story, because the story would not have made sense. Also, if all the souls in Hades were asleep, the information about Jesus going there to preach to them about His victory would not have made any sense. I know that some preachers tend to send people to sleep in the congregation, but there are people still awake to hear his message to make the preaching worthwhile.

I don't believe the rich man and lazarus as literal it is a parable about not following God written words, the Law of Moses. Soul Sleep allows for an exception, that would be the voice of the Lord. they are unconcious to everyone but the Lord's word and activity. those that sleep in the dust of the ground will hear his voice and awake, so to everlasting life and some to everlasting destruction.

 

[BobRyan]

If we view Jesus' story about the Rich Man and Lazarus, we see that neither were unconscious. The rich man was fully conscious where he was

Agreed. But as many scholars point out (even those who don't preach soul-sleep) Luke 16 above is a parable and not a historic factual account. IT has prayers to the dead and God is not prayed to at all. Rather Abraham is the sovereign of heaven. The reason Jesus tells a parable of that sort is in response to what the Jews had just said regarding his parables and stories - they were complaining and rejecting them. So Jesus came up with a parable where Abraham is sovereign of all of heaven -- a story the Jews could not resist.

IT ends with the "lesson of the parable" which is according to Christ "if they do not listen to Moses - they will not listen though one rises from the dead".

Jesus was most certainly not teaching that in real life you can pray to the dead, or that Abraham is in charge of all the saints in heaven, or that the lost pray to Abraham after they die or that His sleep illustration/teaching in John 11 was not really true.

=======================

Also, if all the souls in Hades were asleep, the information about Jesus going there to preach to them about His victory would not have made any sense.

No text says that. Not even 1 Peter 3.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

None of that explains the following...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV


Luke 16:19-26
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
KJV


Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.'
KJV

We were not discussing any of these scripture texts. All of these however have been discussed in detail however here in the linked thread below...

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE STATE OF THE DEAD?

if you wish to have a read.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I read through his very long and extensive post, and I failed to understand what his actual point was about man having or not having an immortal soul/spirit. He seemed to be implying that only born again believers have an immortal spirit, and that unconverted sinners will just cease to exist after death.

But this contradicts Peter who said that after Jesus died, he went down to Hades and preached to the souls in prison. The accepted interpretation is that Jesus went to proclaim His victory to those who died as the result of the Flood. These were unrepentant sinners, who according to our friend's implication should not have existed after they died in the Flood.

The scriptures provided in the body of post # 331 are a detailed scripture review of sleep being death also showing the Greek and Hebrew meanings of body soul and Spirit which are all applicable to 1 Thessalonians 5:23. The summary which says 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "body, soul and spirit is simply that God will sanctify you to the utmost of all your being (body, breath/soul and mind/spirit) and for Matthew 10:28, do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot take away your life as that comes from God (eternal life). Be afraid therefore of those who can take away your body and your life (eternal life) that comes from God (context is to "believers" - John 3:36).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

so lets try it again what do these text mean

quoting text that are not 1 Thess 5:23 is not addressing 1 Thess 5:23, it is avoidence. quoting text other then Matt 10:28 is not addressing Matt. 10:28 it is avoiding the text. how do these fit into your view. They don't appear to. explaing what you do with them. and wishing them away is not an option, drowning them in a bunch of other text is not addressing them either. these are the texts that are causing the problem

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 10:28, “Do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Not really. Your just repeating yourself without addressing anything in the post you are quoting from that is in disagreement with you here. Post # 331 simply shows the application of sleep to death and being in the grave/hell while the meaning of body, soul and spirit in the Greek and Hebrew mean..

Soul = breath (living breathing)
Body = flesh
Spirit = breathing living mind

Therefore the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "body, soul and spirit is simply that God will sanctify you to the utmost of all your being (body, breath/soul and mind/spirit) while Matthew 10:28, do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot take away your life as that comes from God (eternal life). Be afraid therefore of those who can take away your body and your life (eternal life) that comes from God (context is to "believers" - John 3:36).

Your response was simply to ignore what was shared with you from the scriptures. So we will agree to disagree here.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is true - if we claim that it is a property of our own sinful fallen nature - that we never die - then we are claiming to be immortal.

Well, the Scriptures I have quoted show that departed people are conscious of their surroundings where they went. The penitent thief went to Paradise with Jesus, the rich man was very conscious of being tormented in "this horrible place", and there were souls in Hades that went there after the people died in the Flood, and were conscious to be able to hear Jesus peaching to them. So there are three pretty clear Scripture references that contradict the belief of soul sleep.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Not really. Your just repeating yourself without addressing anything in the post you are quoting from that is in disagreement with you here. Post # 331 simply shows the application of sleep to death and being in the grave/hell while the use of body, soul and spirit means in the Greek and Hebrew..

Soul = breath (living breathing)
Body = flesh
Spirit = breathing living mind

Therefore the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "body, soul and spirit is simply that God will sanctify you to the utmost of all your being (body, breath/soul and mind/spirit) while Matthew 10:28, do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot take away your life as that comes from God (eternal life). Be afraid therefore of those who can take away your body and your life (eternal life) that comes from God (context is to "believers" - John 3:36).

Your response was simply to ignore what was shared with you from the scriptures. So we will agree to disagree here.

how can the mind be thrown into hell.

I don't think that is far off, but it is not complete the soul, in SDA talk is the Mind, Character & Personality. what happens to that at death. it has to exist somewhere. Why if it does not then what part remains when Christ give you a new body and a new spirit/power source?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

how can the mind be thrown into hell.
I don't think that is far off, but it is not complete the soul, in SDA talk is the Mind, Character & Personality

Second death, no resurrection.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't believe the rich man and lazarus as literal it is a parable about not following God written words, the Law of Moses. Soul Sleep allows for an exception, that would be the voice of the Lord. they are unconcious to everyone but the Lord's word and activity. those that sleep in the dust of the ground will hear his voice and awake, so to everlasting life and some to everlasting destruction.

It is not usual for anyone to be directly named in a parable, therefore it is quite probable that Jesus was referring to real people. In any case, even if it was a parable, would Jesus even be implying that people would be conscious after death if He believed in soul sleep. It is obvious that the Jesus of the Gospels didn't.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Agreed. But as many scholars point out (even those who don't preach soul-sleep) Luke 16 above is a parable and not a historic factual account. IT has prayers to the dead and God is not prayed to at all. Rather Abraham is the sovereign of heaven. The reason Jesus tells a parable of that sort is in response to what the Jews had just said regarding his parables and stories - they were complaining and rejecting them. So Jesus came up with a parable where Abraham is sovereign of all of heaven -- a story the Jews could not resist.

IT ends with the "lesson of the parable" which is according to Christ "if they do not listen to Moses - they will not listen though one rises from the dead".

Jesus was most certainly not teaching that in real life you can pray to the dead, or that Abraham is in charge of all the saints in heaven, or that the lost pray to Abraham after they die or that His sleep illustration/teaching in John 11 was not really true.

=======================



No text says that. Not even 1 Peter 3.

Regardless of what some believe about these Scripture references, whether parable or not, or what Jesus preached to the souls "in prison" (where else but Hades?), the Scripture references contradict soul sleep after death.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The scriptures provided in the body of post # 331 are a detailed scripture review of sleep being death also showing the Greek and Hebrew meanings of body soul and Spirit which are all applicable to 1 Thessalonians 5:23. The summary which says 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "body, soul and spirit is simply that God will sanctify you to the utmost of all your being (body, breath/soul and mind/spirit) and for Matthew 10:28, do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot take away your life as that comes from God (eternal life). Be afraid therefore of those who can take away your body and your life (eternal life) that comes from God (context is to "believers" - John 3:36).

The Old Testament description of kings "sleeping with his fathers" is the way a king's death is described. Being a descriptive historical narrative, it is not suitable for a foundation of soul sleep theology. I have demonstrated through three direct Scriptural references involving Jesus, that He definitely did not believe in soul sleep. So, if you know of a Jesus who believed in soul sleep, it is not the Jesus of the Gospels.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, the Scriptures I have quoted show that departed people are conscious of their surroundings where they went. The penitent thief went to Paradise with Jesus

The text says "remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom" -- this is not a reference to going to paradise that day.

John 20 - Jesus informs Mary that as of Sunday morning He still hand not been to Paradise - where the throne of God is etc.

Jesus' response to the penitent thief was "Truly I say to you TODAY - you SHALL be with Me in Paradise" - which was affirmation that When He would come in His kingdom that born-again sinner would be remembered.

, the rich man was very conscious of being tormented in "this horrible place",

That is a parable where we have prayers to the dead, Abraham as sovereign of heaven, all saints in heaven under Abraham's control etc. IT was told to illustrate one point "if they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead". As Christ points out.

Even Bible scholars like R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry point this out -- and they both believe in the immortal soul and that the wicked go immediately to hell when they die.

and there were souls in Hades that went there after the people died in the Flood, and were conscious to be able to hear Jesus peaching to them.

As even the Presbyterian minister J.V. McGee points out - the statement in 1 Peter 3 that you referenced above is fully explained in 1 Peter 1 - where the Spirit of Christ was active all during OT times inspiring the prophets and preaching to the lost -- 1 Peter 3 says Jesus' Spirit had preached to those "now in prison" -- why are they still in prison? (the prison house of death) ? Well because Jesus preached to them in the OT times - and they are now dead, still dead, awaiting the resurrection.


So there are three pretty clear Scripture references that do not contradict the belief of soul sleep which is clearly taught in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Regardless of what some believe about these Scripture references, whether parable or not, or what Jesus preached to the souls "in prison" (where else but Hades?), the Scripture references contradict soul sleep after death.

Well that all depends if you believe parables are literal or not. Are we as God's followers literally sheep? Is Jesus literally a door or a loaf of bread? Is Jesus literally water? What about the wicked are they literally goats or weeds? Are we literally all virgins? Parables use symbols with hidden meanings and lessons behind them.

 

[BobRyan]

The Old Testament description of kings "sleeping with his fathers" is the way a king's death is described.

We both agree with that.

And we agree that John 11 is in the NT and that Lazarus' death is spoken of as sleep. It is the clear teaching of Jesus -- no parable nothing mystic there.

And we agree 1 Thess 4:13-18 is in the NT and teaches sleep as being the state of death.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well that all depends if you believe parables are literal or not. Are we as God's followers literally sheep? Is Jesus literally a door or a loaf of bread? Is Jesus literally water? What about the wicked are they literally goats or weeds? Are we literally all virgins?

Do you think that Jesus believed in soul sleep or not? I thought that the point of the thread was to discuss whether a person's soul is immortal or not or that Satan and his demons will be ruling over a desolute world during the 1000 years.