• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Can you really live by Sola Scriptura?

Status
Not open for further replies.

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Your teachings are outside of what Scripture says and are a flawed interpretation. The Catholic Church CHOSE the 73 books of the Bible in a centuries long process, certainly the Holy Spirit was at work through Christ's Church during that process. The Church had to decide what was God-breathed and what was not. I do understand it is your man-made tradition to not recognize the Eucharist and to believe it is impossible for God to allow us to eat His flesh in modern times. You don't have to believe me, I again urge you to read the writings of the early Christians, I quoted from Ignatius. The old prefigures the new, the spotless lamb as a sacrifice to be eaten.
Umm, nope. Your simply avoiding addressing the content of my posts again. Let's talk about your current post here. How does anything you have written here respond to or address any of the scriptures shared with you or and of the questions asked of you that are based on the scriptures that are in disagreement with you from post # 319? - It doesn't. You just simply ignored everything shared with you in the linked post and posted the writings of someone outside of the scriptures shared with you and the questions asked of you. You quoted Ignatius? So what? Is Ignatius scripture and God's Word? - Nope. I quoted scripture that is God's Words not mine. Writings of those outside of the bible do not trump scripture which is God's Word. The teachings and traditions of men do not supersede what God's Word says. Let's be honest now. Your not able to address the scriptures in my posts or answer the questions asked of you based on those scriptures. Of course you do not have to if you do not want to. At the very least however it should give you something to think about and pray about. As posted earlier many of the early Church Christians recognized the inspired words of God that make up the bible from four gospels of Jesus and the writings of the Apostles. None of it was written by the Roman Catholic Church and the old testament the Hebrews were already in agreement as to what was scripture and what was not. The Apocrypha is not scripture and neither does it belong in the bible.

Take Care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,280
5,848
Minnesota
✟328,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Umm, nope. Your simply avoiding addressing the content of my posts to you here again. Let's talk about your current post here. You quoted Ignatius? So what? Is Ignatius scripture and God's Word? - Nope. I quoted scripture that is God's Words not mine. Writings of those outside of the bible do not trump scripture which is God's Word. The teachings and traditions of men do not supersede what God's Word says. Let's be honest now. Your not able to address the scriptures in my posts or answer the questions asked of you based on those scriptures. Of course you do not have to if you do not want to. At the very least however it should give you something to think about and pray about. As posted earlier many of the early Church Christians recognized the inspired words of God that make up the bible from Jesus and the Apostles. None of it was written by the Roman Catholic Church and the old testament the Hebrews were already in agreement as to what was scripture and what was not.

Take Care.
Just letting you know what the followers of the Apostles understood. Your manmade tradition of saying it is impossible to eat the flesh of Jesus in modern times is outside of the Bible as is your opinion that when Jesus, in John 6, talked about his true flesh and true blood he meant they were only symbols. Your man-made traditions and opinions do not trump Holy Scripture. Your diatribes are based on those two false assumptions. I have also pointed out the difference between the audience response when Jesus spoke literally vs. figuratively to clear up your confusion, and how the early Christians understood the Holy Eucharist. Certainly the NT Catholic authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible. No Catholic Church--no Bible.
Yes Catholics recognized a good deal of Holy Scripture, but there were differences in what was accepted as readings at the masses from area to area. The Catholic Church decided it was important to determine what was God-breathed and what was not, and it was not until the 300s that the first list of NT in the very same order we use today was compiled/ The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible in the late 300s.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Just letting you know what the followers of the Apostles understood. Your manmade tradition of saying it is impossible to eat the flesh of Jesus in modern times is outside of the Bible as is your opinion that when Jesus, in John 6, talked about his true flesh and true blood he meant they were only symbols. Your man-made traditions and opinions do not trump Holy Scripture. Your diatribes are based on those two false assumptions. I have also pointed out the difference between the audience response when Jesus spoke literally vs. figuratively to clear up your confusion, and how the early Christians understood the Holy Eucharist. Certainly the NT Catholic authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible. No Catholic Church--no Bible.
Yes Catholics recognized a good deal of Holy Scripture, but there were differences in what was accepted as readings at the masses from area to area. The Catholic Church decided it was important to determine what was God-breathed and what was not, and it was not until the 300s that the first list of NT in the very same order we use today was compiled/ The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible in the late 300s.

The writings of Ignatius letters have been in controversy and dispute for some time and the date of their writings range from 160 to 180 AD well after the death of the Apostles. So putting these before the scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with you does not supersede the scriptures that have been shared with you in love as a help to you. Gods Word are not my words but Gods' and Gods' Word not my words have been shared with you, so there is no assumptions my part. I have simply provided scripture evidence and asked you questions based on these scriptures that you are still unable or unwilling to discuss or to answer and it is these scriptures that are evidence that prove your man-made teachings and traditions are not biblical and are based on faulty assumptions. Of course as posted earlier you are free to believe as you wish and I do not judge you. You have been provided Gods Word as evidence and you have been provided questions that were only sent in love that challenge your assumptions in regards to what the scriptures teach in post # 319. That said I hope only the best for you which is why I have spent some time today in discussion with you. According to the scriptures we are to "examine ourselves to see if we are genuinely in the faith (the Word) or not *2 Corinthians 13:5. So we should not be upset or afraid in discussing the scripture because if what we believe is not true God's Word is a light that shines on our way to guide us and are God's blessings for all those who open their eyes to see and their ears to hearing them. Can I ask you an honest question? If what you were being taught was not based on the scriptures, would you not want to know so you can have a closer walk with Jesus? Scripture is not diatribe. It is God's Word and the only standard of what is true and what is not true *Romans 3:4; John 17:17 and the light the shines on our path that is dark and narrow that helps us to find the way.

My prayer is that you might seek God for yourself through His Word.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Certainly the NT Catholic authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible. No Catholic Church--no Bible.
Let's be clear here and not misleading, as there was no new testament Roman Catholic authors of the new testament. Jesus and the Apostles were not Roman Catholic. There were many Church's outside of Rome. The word "catholic" simply means "universal" and all Christians believers defined in the scriptures are the "universal Church" as all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4). The Greek meaning of "Church" ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | ek-klay-see'-ah) G1577 simply means an assembly of believers who believe and follow what God's Word says. It does not mean the "Roman Catholic Church"
Yes Catholics recognized a good deal of Holy Scripture, but there were differences in what was accepted as readings at the masses from area to area. The Catholic Church decided it was important to determine what was God-breathed and what was not, and it was not until the 300s that the first list of NT in the very same order we use today was compiled/ The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible in the late 300s.
Not exactly. The bible before Jesus started with the writings of the old testament Hebrew scriptures. This was the bible of Jesus and the Apostles. The new testament scriptures included the four gospels of Mathew, Mark Luke and John all of known origins outlining the life and death of Jesus and His teachings. The rest of the new testament included all the writings of the Apostles. The Apostles were the chosen of Jesus to teach all nations and to give the teachings of Jesus to the world. The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). It didn’t give us the Word of God. Also, it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles – not the Roman Catholic Church. The early Church simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have as the bible. The Apocrypha however, that is all the writings outside of the old and new testament scriptures do not belong in the bible and are not scripture as they are mostly Greek writings (accept a few) that do not fit in the old testament recognized Hebrew bible of the old testament and being written before Christ, so they neither fit in the new testament scriptures which is why they are called Apocrypha meaning of disputable origins (not scripture).

Take Care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,280
5,848
Minnesota
✟328,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The early Church simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have as the bible.
Incorrect. First, there was no "Hebrew Bible." Jews disagreed among themselves as to what books comprised Holy Scripture. While readings allowed to be read at Catholic masses in the first centuries were similar, and books like the Gospels were widely accepted, as I told you there were differences from area to area. The Catholic Church decided there was a need and set out to determine which texts were God-breathed and which were not. The Catholic Church process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) in 367. A.D., containing the same books in the same order we use today. Hardly the simple task of gathering those and putting them together as you allege. The list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D., by the Council of Florence 1442 A.D., and by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Full context provided here...
LoveGodsWord said: Not exactly. The bible before Jesus started with the writings of the old testament Hebrew scriptures. This was the bible of Jesus and the Apostles. The new testament scriptures included the four gospels of Mathew, Mark Luke and John all of known origins outlining the life and death of Jesus and His teachings. The rest of the new testament included all the writings of the Apostles. The Apostles were the chosen of Jesus to teach all nations and to give the teachings of Jesus to the world. The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). It didn’t give us the Word of God. Also, it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles – not the Catholic Church. The early Church simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have as the bible. The Apocrypha however, that is all the writings outside of the old and new testament scriptures do not belong in the bible and are not scripture as they are Greek writings of unknown origins that do not fit in the old testament recognized Hebrew bible of the old testament and being written before Christ, so they neither fit in the new testament scriptures which is why they are called Apocrypha meaning of unknown origins (not scripture).
Your response here...
Incorrect. First, there was no "Hebrew Bible." Jews disagreed among themselves as to what books comprised Holy Scripture. While readings allowed to be read at Catholic masses in the first centuries were similar, and books like the Gospels were widely accepted, as I told you there were differences from area to area. The Catholic Church decided there was a need and set out to determine which texts were God-breathed and which were not. The Catholic Church process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) in 367. A.D., containing the same books in the same order we use today. Hardly the simple task of gathering those and putting them together as you allege. The list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D., by the Council of Florence 1442 A.D., and by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D
Umm nope. What was written to you was correct. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding as to what was written to you? When stating earlier that the bible in the days of Jesus was the Hebrew scriptures of the law and the prophets was not that there was a bible that was available to everyone like we have them today, but that the law and the prophets and the old testament scriptures, as we know them today were the equivalent to what we have in our bibles today. Contrary to your opinion the Jews did agree among themselves what was considered to be scripture and a part of the Hebrew bible (see below)

"Hebrew Bible, also called Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament, or Tanakh, collection of writings that was first compiled and preserved as the sacred books of the Jewish people. It also constitutes a large portion of the Christian Bible, known as the Old Testament. Except for a few passages in Aramaic, appearing mainly in the apocalyptic Book of Daniel, these scriptures were written originally in Hebrew during the period from 1200 to 100 BCE. The Hebrew Bible probably reached its current form about the 2nd century CE." - (source; Encyclopedia Britannica)​

So as shown above it is your view that is not correct here. As posted earlier, The Hebrew scriptures were the equivalent of the bible that Jesus and the Apostles used in their day which is what we have today. The new testament scriptures included the four gospels of Mathew, Mark Luke and John all of known origins outlining the life and death of Jesus and His teachings. The rest of the new testament includes all the writings of the Apostles. The Apostles were the chosen of Jesus to teach all nations and to give the teachings of Jesus to the world. The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). The Church didn’t give us the Word of God because it was already given to us by the Jews, Jesus and the Apostles who wrote them. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through Jesus and the apostles – not the Roman Catholic Church. The early Church, which included all Church's even those outside of Rome simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have today as the bible. The councils of Rome simply made this official for the Roman Catholic Church but this was something already being practiced by all church's outside of Rome for a 1000 plus years. The Apocrypha however, that is all the writings outside of the old and new testament scriptures do not belong in the bible and are not scripture as they are mostly Greek writings of disputable origins that do not fit in the old testament recognized Hebrew bible of the old testament and being written before Christ, so they neither fit in the new testament scriptures which is why they are called Apocrypha meaning of unknown origins (not scripture). Sadly I see you simply ignored the content and questions asked of you in the post you are quoting from again. As posted earlier you do not have to address my posts to you or answer my questions to you if you do not want to. Perhaps you can pray about it.

Take Care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D., by the Council of Florence 1442 A.D., and by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.
Valletta perhaps this will help. Do you agree...

[1]. that the Roman Catholic Church did not write the bible?
[2]. that the early Church's were never controlled by the Roman Catholic Church and that all of these Church's were already using the same scriptures from the four gospels and the writings of the Apostle and Hebrew bible?
Thanks for your thoughts.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,280
5,848
Minnesota
✟328,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Valletta perhaps this will help. Do you agree...

[1]. that the Roman Catholic Church did not write the bible?
[2]. that the early Church's were never controlled by the Roman Catholic Church and that all of these Church's were already using the same scriptures from the four gospels and the writings of the Apostle and Hebrew bible?
Thanks for your thoughts.
It's the Catholic Church, the NT writers were all Catholics. Catholic means universal, and Catholics met for the "breaking of the bread," the Catholic mass, on Sundays. When decisions had to be made, Peter, our first pope, made such decisions after consulting with the other bishops, as did later popes. It was at least ten years before any of the Gospels were written, so at first there were no Gospels available to Catholics. for the readings. You might be interested to learn that there is no record of most of the Apostles writing anything, nor Jesus telling them to do so. So eventually the Gospels did become part of the readings, one accepted in one region and maybe another in a different region. But there were teachings that were outside of the Catholic Church being read, heresies, and you can see various inspired speakers correcting specific audiences in speeches are now part of the Bible. Realize it was over 300 years before the first historical list of the 73 books of the Bible, in the exact same order we us today, where history shows the list was written down. As the process enfolded you would be correct that the four Gospels were widely well received, but again there is no finalized list of NT books occurring in history until the list of NT books by Saint Athanasius in 367 A.D.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It's the Catholic Church, the NT writers were all Catholics. Catholic means universal, and Catholics met for the "breaking of the bread," the Catholic mass, on Sundays. When decisions had to be made, Peter, our first pope, made such decisions after consulting with the other bishops, as did later popes. It was at least ten years before any of the Gospels were written, so at first there were no Gospels available to Catholics. for the readings. You might be interested to learn that there is no record of most of the Apostles writing anything, nor Jesus telling them to do so. So eventually the Gospels did become part of the readings, one accepted in one region and maybe another in a different region. But there were teachings that were outside of the Catholic Church being read, heresies, and you can see various inspired speakers correcting specific audiences in speeches are now part of the Bible. Realize it was over 300 years before the first historical list of the 73 books of the Bible, in the exact same order we us today, where history shows the list was written down. As the process enfolded you would be correct that the four Gospels were widely well received, but again there is no finalized list of NT books occurring in history until the list of NT books by Saint Athanasius in 367 A.D.

No, not really. Your post here is misleading but allow me to explain why. As posted earlier from post # 324 linked; "Let's be clear here and not misleading, as there was no new testament Roman Catholic authors of the new testament. Jesus and the Apostles were not Roman Catholic. There were many Church's outside of Rome. The word "catholic" simply means "universal" and all Christians believers defined in the scriptures are the "universal Church" as all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4). The Greek meaning of "Church" ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | ek-klay-see'-ah) G1577 simply means an assembly of believers who believe and follow what God's Word says. It does not mean the "Roman Catholic Church". According to the scriptures, Gods' people met everyday to break bread *see Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. You might be interested to learn that Jesus gave all the Apostles the great commission to teach all nations everything he had taught them *e.g. see Matthew 28:19-20. The rest of your post has already been addressed so no further comment is needed here. Did you want to answer the questions asked of you in post # 327? You seemed to have missed it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,280
5,848
Minnesota
✟328,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
No your post is misleading. As posted earlier from post # 324 linked; Let's be clear here and not misleading, as there was no new testament Roman Catholic authors of the new testament. Jesus and the Apostles were not Roman Catholic. There were many Church's outside of Rome. The word "catholic" simply means "universal" and all Christians believers defined in the scriptures are the "universal Church" as all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4). The Greek meaning of "Church" ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | ek-klay-see'-ah) G1577 simply means an assembly of believers who believe and follow what God's Word says. It does not mean the "Roman Catholic Church". According to the scriptures, Gods' people met everyday to break bread *see Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. You might be interested to learn that Jesus gave all the Apostles the great commission to teach all nations everything he had taught them *e.g. see Matthew 28:19-20. The rest of your post has already been addressed so not further comment is needed here. Did you want to answer the questions asked of you in post # 327? You seemed to have missed it.
Catholic means "universal," today there are various rites within the Catholic Church, such as the Roman rite, but it is still the Catholic Church. It is well agreed upon that the word "Catholic" was used to define Christ's Church because various heresies occurred, and there is only one Catholic Church. The Catholic Church chose Sunday as a special day to meet for the breaking of the bread because Jesus rose on the third day, Sunday. We do have mass on weekdays but Sunday, the Lord's Day, is special.
Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,... RSVCE
The ancient Didache also describes the practices of Catholics in the first century:

Of Sunday Worship

14. Assemble on the Lord's Day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, "Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations."


I provided some detail to your questions in post 32, if there is something specifically more I can inform you about I would be glad to do so. We simply will have to agree to disagree about the writers of the NT.
 
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
8,855
1,504
Visit site
✟299,815.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Let's be clear here and not misleading, as there was no new testament Roman Catholic authors of the new testament. Jesus and the Apostles were not Roman Catholic. There were many Church's outside of Rome. The word "catholic" simply means "universal" and all Christians believers defined in the scriptures are the "universal Church" as all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4). The Greek meaning of "Church" ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | ek-klay-see'-ah) G1577 simply means an assembly of believers who believe and follow what God's Word says. It does not mean the "Roman Catholic Church"

Not exactly. The bible before Jesus started with the writings of the old testament Hebrew scriptures. This was the bible of Jesus and the Apostles. The new testament scriptures included the four gospels of Mathew, Mark Luke and John all of known origins outlining the life and death of Jesus and His teachings. The rest of the new testament included all the writings of the Apostles. The Apostles were the chosen of Jesus to teach all nations and to give the teachings of Jesus to the world. The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). It didn’t give us the Word of God. Also, it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles – not the Catholic Church. The early Church simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have as the bible. The Apocrypha however, that is all the writings outside of the old and new testament scriptures do not belong in the bible and are not scripture as they are Greek writings of unknown origins that do not fit in the old testament recognized Hebrew bible of the old testament and being written before Christ, so they neither fit in the new testament scriptures which is why they are called Apocrypha meaning of unknown origins (not scripture).

Take Care.

That is not exactly true. Mark and Luke were not Apostles, but their writings were authenticated by the Church. It was by ecclesial authority that they were included. There were also many religious books or gospels in the early Church, some alleged writings of apostles, and they were rejected by the Church using her Ecclesial and Apostolic authority. It took more than having an Apostolic name for a book to be accepted, it had to be accepted by the Church authorities.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That is not exactly true. Mark and Luke were not Apostles, but their writings were authenticated by the Church. It was by ecclesial authority that they were included. There were also many religious books or gospels in the early Church, some alleged writings of apostles, and they were rejected by the Church using her Ecclesial and Apostolic authority. It took more than having an Apostolic name for a book to be accepted, it had to be accepted by the Church authorities.
Hi BWAP nice to see you. I am not sure what your post is about here as I never made any claims in any of my posts here that Mark and Luke were Apostles. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Catholic means "universal," today there are various rites within the Catholic Church, such as the Roman rite, but it is still the Catholic Church.
I think I was the one that already told you this way back in post # 324 linked.
It is well agreed upon that the word "Catholic" was used to define Christ's Church because various heresies occurred, and there is only one Catholic Church.
The word "catholic" as first discussed with you as to it's use was shared with you in post # 324 linked showing that the term means "universal" application to Church is not and never has been a reference to the Roman Catholic Church in isolation from every other Church that existed in the times of the Apostles and after their time. Jesus and the Apostles were not Roman Catholic. There were many Church's outside of Rome. The word "catholic" simply means "universal" and all Christians believers defined in the scriptures are the "universal Church" as all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4). The Greek meaning of "Church" ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | ek-klay-see'-ah) G1577 simply means an assembly of believers who believe and follow what God's Word says. It does not mean the "Roman Catholic Church".
The Catholic Church chose Sunday as a special day to meet for the breaking of the bread because Jesus rose on the third day, Sunday.
Agreed. It is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God just as Jesus warns us about in His own words where he days in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from Gods Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. So it begs the question if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break the commandments of God who are we worshiping? There is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments have now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. Can you show me where it says this in the scriptures? - There is none.
We do have mass on weekdays but Sunday, the Lord's Day, is special.
Sunday is not "the Lords day" according to the scriptures. The claim that Sunday as "the Lords day" is simply a man-made teaching that is unsupported by the scriptures.
Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread,... RSVCE
According to the scriptures, Gods' people met everyday to break bread. God's people meeting everyday to break bread does not make everyday the Lords day now does it? Also, there is no scripture in the entire bible that states Sunday or the first day of the week is "the Lords day". This is simply a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by scripture.
  • Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 [46], And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,[47], Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
So Acts of the Apostles 20:7 was no different to the disciples meeting every other day of the week breaking bread. For your interest the reason why the disciples were meeting together on the first day of the week was because Paul was departing the next day and would not be seeing them anymore for some time.
The ancient Didache also describes the practices of Catholics in the first century: Of Sunday Worship 14. Assemble on the Lord's Day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, "Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations."
Once again the Didache is a man-made document that is not scripture that is unsupported by scripture from an unknown source and date outside of the bible with no date and author that mysteriously appeared in 1873. Because the document has no author or date scholars cannot agree when the didache was written and argue anywhere up to 400 AD. Let's be clear the Didache is not God's Word. Also, if many scholars are of the view that Didache 14:1 that you posted is also a mistranslation of the original Koine Greek does not include the Greek word [day] and the manuscript has no reference point to day and time.

Here is the evidence.

Didache 14:1a in the original Koine Greek reads....

Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ.​

Didache 14:1a in the original Greek to literal English....

According to 'the Lord's things' of Lord: gather break bread and give thanks, confessing out
Mistranslated to English....

Didache 14:1a as mistranslated to the English with no reference point to time for translation reads....

"But every Lord's [day; not in original Greek] gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving";[14] another translation begins, "On the Lord's own [day]".​

The first clause in Greek, "κατά κυριακήν δέ κυρίου", literally means in English "On the Lord's of the Lord", a unique and unexplained double possessive, and translators supply the elided noun, e.g., "day" (ἡμέρα hemera), "commandment" (from the immediately prior verse 13:7), or "doctrine". This is one of two early extra biblical Christian uses of "κυριακήν" where it does not clearly refer to Sunday or a fixed point in time for reference because textual readings have given rise to questions of proper translation as there is no reference point to time or day. According to the scriptures breaking bread of bread is also not a reference point because this was done daily or weekly at any time of the week *Acts of the Apostles 2:42, 20:7. (see Ambiguous references).
I provided some detail to your questions in post 32, if there is something specifically more I can inform you about I would be glad to do so. We simply will have to agree to disagree about the writers of the NT.
You did not write post # 32. Could you please tell me your views on the two questions posted in post # 327? Perhaps you missed it.

Hope this was helpful.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,280
5,848
Minnesota
✟328,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Our Church is the "Catholic Church," you continue to get that wrong. The consensus of the date for the Didache is first century, however, some disagree. Honoring our Lord on Sunday leads no one away from God. This was done by the authority Jesus gave to Simon when he renamed him as Rock and gave Rock (Peter) the keys to the kingdom. Post 327 has been answered, please go back and read my responses. We can agree to disagree.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I am sorry but I respectfully disagree. The word "catholic" or "universal" Church means all church's that believe and follow what Gods' Word says. It does not mean "Roman Catholic Church" in isolation from every other Church. I do not see much point in continuing our discussion to be honest if you are going to continue to ignore everything in the posts and scriptures that have been shared with you in love and refuse to address my posts and the questions asked of you that are in disagreement with you. Anyhow perhaps take some time to re-read our discussion when you get some more time. It should be concerning however for any of us if we are not able to answer any questions asked of us or we are unable to address posts that are in disagreement with what we believe when discussing the scriptures. Of course we are all free to believe and do anything we like as that is between each individual and God *see John 12:47-48. My view is that if we do indeed have the truth of Gods' Word we should be able to freely discuss it in a friendly manner to see if we are really following Gods' Word or not. However if any of us are unwilling to do so we are better off to agree to disagree. The conversation is there for all to see and I hope only the best for you and you get a chance to re-read it. I do not believe that there is anything biblical in what you have posted here at all sadly and no you did not answer any questions asked of you from post # 327. If you did please provide a link. Finally no, Matthew 16:18 is a reference to Jesus being the Rock not Peter. The Greek word for Peter means a piece of rock or a stone in the Greek. Go look it up. Nice talking to you.

Take Care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Jun 26, 2003
8,855
1,504
Visit site
✟299,815.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Hi BWAP nice to see you. I am not sure what your post is about here as I never made any claims in any of my posts here that Mark and Luke were Apostles. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding.


I tried to read your post several times and you made the claim that the New Testament was a collection of writings from the Apostles. If you did not mean that, it was the impression I got
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I tried to read your post several times and you made the claim that the New Testament was a collection of writings from the Apostles. If you did not mean that, it was the impression I got
The claim I made and what was posted in my discussion earlier was that the New Testament included the four gospels of the life and death and teachings of Jesus and the writings of the Apostles. I never said anywhere that Mark and Luke were Apostles. Perhaps you had a misunderstanding.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,280
5,848
Minnesota
✟328,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Let's be clear here and not misleading, as there was no new testament Roman Catholic authors of the new testament. Jesus and the Apostles were not Roman Catholic. There were many Church's outside of Rome. The word "catholic" simply means "universal" and all Christians believers defined in the scriptures are the "universal Church" as all those who believe and follow what God's Word says (see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4). The Greek meaning of "Church" ἐκκλησία (ekklēsía | ek-klay-see'-ah) G1577 simply means an assembly of believers who believe and follow what God's Word says. It does not mean the "Roman Catholic Church"

Not exactly. The bible before Jesus started with the writings of the old testament Hebrew scriptures. This was the bible of Jesus and the Apostles. The new testament scriptures included the four gospels of Mathew, Mark Luke and John all of known origins outlining the life and death of Jesus and His teachings. The rest of the new testament included all the writings of the Apostles. The Apostles were the chosen of Jesus to teach all nations and to give the teachings of Jesus to the world. The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). It didn’t give us the Word of God. Also, it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles – not the Catholic Church. The early Church simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have as the bible. The Apocrypha however, that is all the writings outside of the old and new testament scriptures do not belong in the bible and are not scripture as they are Greek writings of unknown origins that do not fit in the old testament recognized Hebrew bible of the old testament and being written before Christ, so they neither fit in the new testament scriptures which is why they are called Apocrypha meaning of unknown origins (not scripture).

Take Care.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,280
5,848
Minnesota
✟328,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Well certainly there were plenty of errors in his statements. For example:
The early Church simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have as the bible."
This showed a lack of knowledge of basis Bible history, not knowing that the Jews disagreed about what was Holy Scripture and not knowing about the Catholic Church process that spanned centuries before the 73 books of the Bible were finalized.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,636
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,349.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
LoveGodsWord said: Not exactly. The bible before Jesus started with the writings of the old testament Hebrew scriptures. This was the bible of Jesus and the Apostles. The new testament scriptures included the four gospels of Mathew, Mark Luke and John all of known origins outlining the life and death of Jesus and His teachings. The rest of the new testament included all the writings of the Apostles. The Apostles were the chosen of Jesus to teach all nations and to give the teachings of Jesus to the world. The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). It didn’t give us the Word of God. Also, it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles – not the Catholic Church. The early Church simply gathered together copies of the Hebrew bible and the four gospels and the writings of the Apostles and put them all together in what we have as the bible. The Apocrypha however, that is all the writings outside of the old and new testament scriptures do not belong in the bible and are not scripture as they are Greek writings of unknown origins that do not fit in the old testament recognized Hebrew bible of the old testament and being written before Christ, so they neither fit in the new testament scriptures which is why they are called Apocrypha meaning of unknown origins (not scripture).
Your response here...
Well certainly there were plenty of errors in his statements. For example: This showed a lack of knowledge of basis Bible history, not knowing that the Jews disagreed about what was Holy Scripture and not knowing about the Catholic Church process that spanned centuries before the 73 books of the Bible were finalized.
Prove it. I have already provided references in disagreement with you from scripture and the Encyclopedia Britannica that you are unwilling to discuss here. Happy to provide more references if you need them.

"Hebrew Bible, also called Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament, or Tanakh, collection of writings that was first compiled and preserved as the sacred books of the Jewish people. It also constitutes a large portion of the Christian Bible, known as the Old Testament. Except for a few passages in Aramaic, appearing mainly in the apocalyptic Book of Daniel, these scriptures were written originally in Hebrew during the period from 1200 to 100 BCE. The Hebrew Bible probably reached its current form about the 2nd century CE." - (source; Encyclopedia Britannica)​

There was nothing in any of my posts that state I do not know what the Roman Catholic process was for canonizing the scriptures. That is something your making up. I simply posted that the Roman Catholic Church had nothing to do with writing anything in the bible and that all these manuscripts were freely available and used by all churches outside of the Roman Catholic Church and that the Roman Catholic books of the Apocrypha do not belong in the bible as they have no place there as they do not belong in the Hebrew scriptures and books of the old testament and being written before the new testament mostly in the Greek before Christ neither belong in the new testament which is why they are called Apocrypha and not scripture.

Take care.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.