Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

[throughfiierytrial]

I am sure the creation did not just happen in six days of 24 hours each. I believe God took much time and interests to create the ecology and varieties of trees and vegetation , then design the multitude of living creatures and animals. The word "day" means "stage", But the Scripture use the word "day" because "day"t fit the prose of writing in religious manuscript, but "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 certainly does not mean a 24-hour day. In other words, "day" is figurative, not literal.

The real creation might have taken years, decades or 100s or 1000s of years. Humans are finite, we live one generation - usually less than 90 years - and we think short term. But God is timeless and HE is not rushed by time. Why would HE create millions of fauna and creatures in 6x24 hours?

Instead God take interests and pleasure to plan out and create the many varieties of fauna and vegetation. Then He designed the multitude of creatures - He took much interests and pleasure in their appearance and characteristics.

An analogy: Think of people who love to assemble models of planes, tans or figures. They wouldn't want to buy a ready all-finished models -- instead, they enjoy the processing of putting the pieces together, then paint them. Same for people that enjoy assembling a 1000-pieces jigsaw puzzle - the process takes time, it is slow, but to them it is interesting and intriguing.

Why so sure? Is not God almighty with nothing impossible for Him?
Genesis reports the creation and defines "day" which is consistently employed throughout the Scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

I am sure the creation did not just happen in six days of 24 hours each. I believe God took much time and interests to create the ecology and varieties of trees and vegetation , then design the multitude of living creatures and animals. The word "day" means "stage", But the Scripture use the word "day" because "day"t fit the prose of writing in religious manuscript, but "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 certainly does not mean a 24-hour day. In other words, "day" is figurative, not literal. .

Some belief is based on the Bible and some is based on other texts -

In Ex 20:8-11 we have legal code - very clear, exact and precise.
9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:1-3
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

And in Gen 1 each day is one single "evening and morning" rather than one eon or one age.

As noted in the OP -- the phrasing above is not how evolution's opposing view is stated in any science text that I know of.

All views welcomed of course - but if you or someone else is one of the 12 "yes" votes for the 7 day creation week for all life on earth in the poll for this thread or one of the 7 "yes" votes for all the universe created in that 7 day span - but you do not agree with the statements in this post - I would like your view posted so I can better understand your position.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I am sure the creation did not just happen in six days of 24 hours each. I believe God took much time and interests to create the ecology and varieties of trees and vegetation , then design the multitude of living creatures and animals. The word "day" means "stage", But the Scripture use the word "day" because "day"t fit the prose of writing in religious manuscript, but "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 certainly does not mean a 24-hour day. In other words, "day" is figurative, not literal.

The real creation might have taken years, decades or 100s or 1000s of years. Humans are finite, we live one generation - usually less than 90 years - and we think short term. But God is timeless and HE is not rushed by time. Why would HE create millions of fauna and creatures in 6x24 hours?

Instead God take interests and pleasure to plan out and create the many varieties of fauna and vegetation. Then He designed the multitude of creatures - He took much interests and pleasure in their appearance and characteristics.

An analogy: Think of people who love to assemble models of planes, tans or figures. They wouldn't want to buy a ready all-finished models -- instead, they enjoy the processing of putting the pieces together, then paint them. Same for people that enjoy assembling a 1000-pieces jigsaw puzzle - the process takes time, it is slow, but to them it is interesting and intriguing.

I don't know how you can be so sure of what the timing was. God had eternity to work out what He would do, how and when He would do it. Why would He not just speak it into existence as the Bible clearly says?

How long was a morning and evening? It sure sounds like a 24 hour period to me. There is in fact a valid reason why God made things in the order that He did. One of the most interesting books on the subject is "The Mystery of Creation" by Watchman Nee. You can download a .pdf from the internet for free.

 

[Aussie Pete]

There is no shortage of posts on Christian message boards written by people who do not know even so much as the first three letters of the Hebrew alphabet yet think that they know more than hundreds of professors of Semitic languages around the world who are teaching today in seminaries and universities that are internationally known for their academic excellence. None of these professors interpret Genesis to be an accurate account of historic events but rather they teach that Genesis 1-11 is a redacted collection of epic tales, sagas, and myths/legends that are to be understood literally but not historically. This, of course, includes the interpretation of the Hebrew word יוֹם (day) in Genesis.

Academic excellence is no substitute for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is His job to lead us into the truth. I trust those who have devoted their lives to translating the Bible as it is, not interpreting it to suit themselves. God is the God of truth, not myth and legend. When Jesus spoke in parables, it was obvious. There is not even a hint in the OT that Genesis is not to be taken literally.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Definition of CREATIONISM
"Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis "

For the sake of this thread - the way the Bible describes creationism in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is that in 6 evenings-and-mornings God created
the Sun
the moon,
our atmosphere,
and all life on Earth with man and all land animals created in a single "evening and morning" day 6.

So then clearly that belief in creationism is not also belief in evolutionism by any stretch and no text on evolution defines it as stated in the creationist text... "The Bible".

Since this is the "Creationism" forum ... so my question is ... do we actually have any creationists posting here - where the term is defined by that Bible definition?

(I am posting this thread because it is starting to look like there are very few if any actual creationists posting here in this forum ... as in "not a believer in evolutionism" ... is it all just evolutionists here?)

===========================
BTW: If you are a real 7 day creation week creationist not at all trying to get evolution to cause a single celled organism to turn into a horse over millions of years of time...then:

1. Look at all the details in these two posts #1 #2 (click the links) and tell me if you find one or two objective realities there that both atheist and creationist do in fact agree to.

2. Tell me if you think it is helpful to find a few points in common and then from there move to where views start to diverge​

This post has some extremely serious problems! Making a dichotomy between atheists and creationists is ridiculously absurd because the vast majority of religious people believe that the earth was created by one or more deities, and only a small fraction of those people believe that the depiction of creation found in Genesis is an accurate depiction of an historic event. Moreover, tens of millions of Christians believe that the theory of evolution is consistent with observable reality and that the interpretation of Genesis by modern day fundamentalists is severely inconsistent with that same observable reality. Indeed, it is entirely possible to believe in the creation of the earth by God and in the theory of evolution.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Academic excellence is no substitute for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is His job to lead us into the truth. I trust those who have devoted their lives to translating the Bible as it is, not interpreting it to suit themselves. God is the God of truth, not myth and legend. When Jesus spoke in parables, it was obvious. There is not even a hint in the OT that Genesis is not to be taken literally.

Yes, it is a job of the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth, but the Holy Spirit is not a monkey in a cage at a circus ran by radicalized Christian fundamentalists. Moreover, no translation of the Bible will ever be any better than the academic excellence of the seminaries and universities where the translators received their formal education. Furthermore, it is impossible to accurately translate the Bible without accurately interpreting it—and that interpretation must be in full agreement with all of the relevant data.

The first eleven chapters of Genesis are recognized today by virtually every Old Testament scholar specializing in the study of Genesis and currently publishing research on Genesis in major, peer-reviewed biblical journals to be a unique body of literature that was written in a genre that is found nowhere else in the Bible. That genre is the same genre of literature in which epic tales, sagas, myths and legends were written. The Holy Spirit is not the personal property Christian fundamentalists and He never had any obligation to them to give us the Bible in the manner in which that they wish it had been written.

For a summary of the massive amount of data upon which these academically solid conclusions are based, and for a very careful and thorough analysis of the relevant data, please see the 636-page commentary on the Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11 by Claus Westermann. For commentaries on the Hebrew text of Genesis that confirm the accuracy of Westermann’s conclusions, please see those by John Skinner, Ephraim A. Speiser, Gerhard von Rad, and Gordon Wenham.

When Jesus spoke in parables, it was obvious. There is not even a hint in the OT that Genesis is not to be taken literally.

There are NO parables in Genesis 1-11, and all of the language is written in literal prose—including “the windows of the heavens” in Gen. 7:11.

 

[East of Eden]

There is no shortage of posts on Christian message boards written by people who do not know even so much as the first three letters of the Hebrew alphabet yet think that they know more than hundreds of professors of Semitic languages around the world who are teaching today in seminaries and universities that are internationally known for their academic excellence. None of these professors interpret Genesis to be an accurate account of historic events but rather they teach that Genesis 1-11 is a redacted collection of epic tales, sagas, and myths/legends that are to be understood literally but not historically. This, of course, includes the interpretation of the Hebrew word יוֹם (day) in Genesis.

What you're saying is basically that all the people who agree with you agree with you. Jesus believed in a literal Adam, and a literal Noah btw. Your professors are like the crowd who jeered Noah while he was building the ark, right before they were drowned.

 

[East of Eden]

Yes, it is a job of the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth, but the Holy Spirit is not a monkey in a cage at a circus ran by radicalized Christian fundamentalists.

Rather than fundamentalists, I prefer the term Bible believer. Jesus was one of those.

 

[BobRyan]

This post has some extremely serious problems! Making a dichotomy between atheists and creationists is ridiculously absurd

The OP is simply asking if there are creationists here -- I was not trying to get into all the many forms of evolutionist

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus believed in a literal Adam, and a literal Noah btw.

Amen!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

What you're saying is basically that all the people who agree with you agree with you.

Not at all! I am saying that the hundreds of professors of Semitic languages around the world who are teaching today in seminaries and universities that are internationally known for their academic excellence believe as I do about Genesis 1-11. I am also saying that many Christian fundamentalists who disagree with me do not even know so much as the first three letters of the Hebrew alphabet.

Jesus believed in a literal Adam, and a literal Noah btw.

It appears to me that you are assuming, without any evidence of any kind, that Jesus was correct in those beliefs. But, let’s look at the facts.

Jesus had a human brain—just like ours! However, it is often supposed by Christians, including many who post to Christian messages boards, that Jesus knew everything—including whether Adam and Noah were real people.

In Mark 6:3 we read, “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.

I am a conservative, evangelical Christian, and therefore I believe that Jesus was actually a carpenter, having been raised in a first century Jewish family with four brothers and an unspecified number of sisters. I do not believe that He attended a university to study world history, cosmology, chemistry, physics, or the arts—and therefore I do not believe that He knew anything more about these subjects than the typical young layman in his community. I do believe, however, that He believed the Jewish traditions that were part of the culture in which He was raised by Mary and Joseph. Therefore, He would have believed that Adam and Noah were real people—unless His heavenly Father had told Him otherwise.

Therefore, I ask—is it likely that His heavenly Father had told Him otherwise? Surely if He had, and Jesus had shared with the people around Him these things, He would have been severely ostracized by his community, and by every other community in which He had shared these things, for being a subversive heretic!

The inspired four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) accurately tell us what Jesus taught, but they do not tell us whether Jesus believed correctly about the first eleven chapters of Genesis.

Christians who are not familiar with the New Testament simply assume that Jesus believed and taught correctly about the first eleven chapters of Genesis because God is omniscient—and Jesus is God—sometimes forgetting that Jesus was also a human being with a very finite human brain and limited knowledge!

These facts are of critical importance because the efficacy of His atonement on the cross for our sins is absolutely dependent upon Jesus being fully human.

Your professors are like the crowd who jeered Noah while he was building the ark, right before they were drowned.

What could be more evil than making such a statement about hundreds of men and women with such a deep love for God and His word that they would choose to devote their lives to the study and teaching of it?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Rather than fundamentalists, I prefer the term Bible believer. Jesus was one of those.

It would be very much more accurate to say that you believe a Christian fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible rather than a true and academically defensible interpretation of the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Definition of CREATIONISM
"Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis "

For the sake of this thread - the way the Bible describes creationism in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is that in 6 evenings-and-mornings God created
the Sun
the moon,
our atmosphere,
and all life on Earth with man and all land animals created in a single "evening and morning" day 6.

So then clearly that belief in creationism is not also belief in evolutionism by any stretch and no text on evolution defines it as stated in the creationist text... "The Bible".

Since this is the "Creationism" forum ... so my question is ... do we actually have any creationists posting here - where the term is defined by that Bible definition?

(I am posting this thread because it is starting to look like there are very few if any actual creationists posting here in this forum ... as in "not a believer in evolutionism" ... is it all just evolutionists here?)

===========================
BTW: If you are a real 7 day creation week creationist not at all trying to get evolution to cause a single celled organism to turn into a horse over millions of years of time...then:

1. Look at all the details in these two posts #1 #2 (click the links) and tell me if you find one or two objective realities there that both atheist and creationist do in fact agree to.

2. Tell me if you think it is helpful to find a few points in common and then from there move to where views start to diverge​

Maybe I missed it - but was this thread moved? I notice it is not under P&LS forum area -- which I view as a "good thing" -- just wondering if it was always outside of P&LS domain.

 

[BobRyan]

belief in creationism is rooted in this solid hard-wired link between the literal days in Ex 20 "legal code" and Gen 2.

In Ex 20:8-11 we have legal code - very clear, exact and precise.
9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:1-3
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

And in Gen 1 each day is one single "evening and morning" rather than one eon or one age.

As noted in the OP -- the phrasing above is not how evolution's opposing view is stated in any science text that I know of.

It would be very much more accurate to say that you believe a Christian fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible rather than a true and academically defensible interpretation of the Bible.

A great many among even the atheist professors of O.T studies in all world class universities apparently do not agree with your suggestion.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus had a human brain—just like ours! However, it is often supposed by Christians, including many who post to Christian messages boards, that Jesus knew everything—including whether Adam and Noah were real people.

Not what the Bible teaches.

Jesus was both God and man. Satan (who as a former Cherub covering angel at the throne of God - perhaps the highest created being in the universe at one time) tempts Christ in Matt 4 to prove His status as the son of God - by turning stone into bread -- on the spot. Jesus refused the temptation --

However that is not the sort of thing that is even remotely tempting to any other normal human because we don't even have the capacity to do it.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Not what the Bible teaches.


Jesus was both God and man. Satan (who as a former Cherub covering angel at the throne of God - perhaps the highest created being in the universe at one time) tempts Christ in Matt 4 to prove His status as the son of God - by turning stone into bread -- on the spot. Jesus refused the temptation --


However that is not the sort of thing that is even remotely tempting to any other normal human because we don't even have the capacity to do it.

The Bible teaches that Christ Jesus manifested at some times His divine nature, and at other times His human nature. Luke tells us in his gospel that while Jesus was growing up, “the favor of God was upon him.” (Luke 2:40). Luke also tells us that when Jesus was 12 years old, he became temporarily separated from his parents and that after they had searched for him for three days in Jerusalem, “they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions….” (Luke 2:46)

This relationship, known in theology as the hypostatic union, has been from the earliest years of the Church a subject of much discussion and debate. I have here in study two books on the subject that are especially helpful,

The Humiliation of Christ by Alexander Balmain Bruce (January 31, 1831 – August 7, 1899) Professor of Apologetics and New Testament Exegesis, Free Church College, Glasgow. Second edition revised and enlarged, 1901.

The Two Natures of Christ [De Duabus Naturis in Christo: De hypostatica earum unione: De communicatione idiomaticum. 1561] by Martin Chemnitz (November 9, 1522 – April 8, 1586) translated by J.A.O. Preus. 1971.

 

[roman2819]

I don't know how you can be so sure of what the timing was. God had eternity to work out what He would do, how and when He would do it. Why would He not just speak it into existence as the Bible clearly says?

How long was a morning and evening? It sure sounds like a 24 hour period to me. There is in fact a valid reason why God made things in the order that He did. One of the most interesting books on the subject is "The Mystery of Creation" by Watchman Nee. You can download a .pdf from the internet for free.

On first 3 days, Genesis said there was evening n morning at end of each day. However the sun and moon were created on 4th day, so how did evening and morning happen on first 3 days ? Does evening really mean sunset evening or morning mean sunrise morning ?

Notice the.order : There was evening and morning ---instead of morning first then evening. So it is not saying 24 hrs passed. Instead, i believe Evening mesns end of one stage and Morning means beginning of another.. it means God created in a distinct phases or stages, ie He didnt mix the different categories eg after finishing with the multitude of sea crestues , then He worked on the land creatures.

 

[roman2819]

And in Gen 1 each day is one single "evening and morning" rather than one eon or one age.

On first 3 days, Genesis said there was evening n morning at end of each day. However the sun and moon were created on 4th day, so how did evening and morning happen on first 3 days ? How could evening and morning really mean sunset evening and sunrise morning without the sun in first 3 days ?

Notice the.order : There was evening and morning ---instead of morning first then evening. So it is not saying 24 hrs passed. Instead, i believe Evening mesns end of one stage/eon and Morning means beginning of another.. it means God created in a distinct phases or stages, ie He didnt mix the different categories eg after finishing with the multitude of sea crestues , then He worked on the land creatures.

 

[roman2819]

Why so sure? Is not God almighty with nothing impossible for Him?
Genesis reports the creation and defines "day" which is consistently employed throughout the Scriptures.

Exodus did said God created in 6 days and rested.on 7th , we shall labor 6 days n rest a day.

However, back then, the Hebrews might understand that day is a word.with different meaning and connitations according to context eg to them, Day could 24 hour time, or eon or age. Aurhor of Exodus used same word Day but people back then understand the different connotations of same word.

Even today we have some words that mean different things.

I don't know how you can be so sure of what the timing was. God had eternity to work out what He would do, how and when He would do it. Why would He not just speak it into existence as the Bible clearly says?

On first 3 days, Genesis said there was evening n morning at end of each day. However the sun and moon were created on 4th day, so how did evening and morning happen on first 3 days ? Did Genesis evening rand morning mean sunrise morning and sunset evening ?

Notice the.order : There was evening and morning --instead of morning first then evening. So it is not saying 24 hrs passed. Instead, i believe Evening mesns end of one stage and Morning means beginning of another.. it means God created in a distinct phases or stages, ie He didnt mix the different categories eg after completed creating the multitude of sea crestues , then He worked on the land creatures.

 

[BobRyan]

On first 3 days, Genesis said there was evening n morning at end of each day.

True - and from science we know that this requires a rotating planet on and a light source on one side but not the other.

However the sun and moon were created on 4th day, so how did evening and morning happen

Well as it turns out - infinite God could know of at least "one other light source" other than the Sun, since that is included in what it means to have infinite power and knowledge..