Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[2PhiloVoid]

It’s not a matter of ignoring verses it’s more of a matter of our understanding those verses and often time we get the wrong understanding because we either read only the English words and never look into the original for what the people who it was written to would have understood it to be . For example the verse that says do good to your enemy and pray for him will be like dumping hot coals over there head . I always took that as a way of getting back at them who wants hot coals dumped on them that would be really bad, but I didn’t know that back then fire was a precious they didn’t have bick lighter so if you fire went out the woman would take a jar and put it on there head and walk to someone and ask for a coal to restart the fire and people were stingy with the coals , so by saying you would dump coals on some ones head it was a blessing not a revenge thing like I read it. So those in UR camp don’t ignore verses we just see them in a different light, like the word translated eternal we accept the translation of that being of the age or eon a more literal translation. That’s not ignoring its having what we would say is a better interpretation in view of the whole of scripture. You see I would say that those who don’t interpret it that way are ignoring all the scripture that says Jesus is the savior of the world/it’s God will that none parish/ as in Adam all die in Christ all will live ect. So really it’s not a matter of ignoring it’s a matter of focus and interpretation.

It could be a 'better' interpretation, but since so many Universalists seem to avoid engaging Hermeneutics, I'm having a hard time precisely locating their exegetical praxis on the map of possible destinations ...

... are there hermeneutical GPS coordinates I can get?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Truth is objective, as you say, but we are finite beings and that means that we can only understand things in part.

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
I Corinthians 13:12

That applies to you as well as to everyone else. Everyone has to interpret everything including their own direct experiences of God, let alone a piece of text. It's not what you want, but there you go.

When Christ says not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven how do you translate that to mean that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven? How do you interpret that to mean the exact opposite of what He said?

 

[Hmm]

When Christ says not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven how do you translate that to mean that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven? How do you interpret that to mean the exact opposite of what He said?

I'll answer that if you can explain how it relates to the topic of the thread...

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It could be a 'better' interpretation, but since so many Universalists seem to avoid engaging Hermeneutics, I'm having a hard time precisely locating their exegetical praxis on the map of possible destinations ...

... are there hermeneutical GPS coordinates I can get?

I am sorry I am a simple person I don’t know about hermeneutical GPS stuff. What I did was I set out to prove UR wrong and in the many hours I did of studying,looking into what the early church believers taught (Apokatastasis) and looking up the aionios in as many Greek dictionaries I could find on line and reading as much information as I could find both for and against I came to the conclusion that I was the one in errand yes they were correct. Now I no longer have to make up 2 wills of God or Gods hidden will, or try to make away around ALL in verses, those things I no longer have to do I can believe them as written not after much gyrations to explain them away . That may be ignoring GPS stuff I don’t know but I do know that my love and faith have been boosted like never before and God has been refining me like never before and I have a love for the lost like never before ( I still have a hard time with the LGBQ crowd

I'll answer that if you can explain how it relates to the topic of the thread...

I'll answer that if you can explain how it relates to the topic of the thread...

I will try to answer that one , but just so you know I am a Christian Universal Redemption guy that is slightly different than the Christian Universal Salvation camp. Look at Rev 22:14-15 “Blessed are those who wash their robes so they can have access to the tree of life and can enter into the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerer’s and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood! To me those are the people who are not part of the kingdom of God but are the subjects of that kingdom. They can’t go into the New Jerusalem. I always wondered why Jesus would say we would reign and rule with him if everyone was either in heaven or hell, who would we reign and rule over ? I think maybe those who have been thrown into the lake of fire and when they get out the are put on the New Earth just like Adam was on the first earth. I know this is not your typical thing taught in church but I think it might have legs. That is way Jesus can say not all will enter into the kingdom of heaven. But he never said that they could not be part of the New Earth, it’s revised garden of Eden part of Jesus making all things new , the greatest reset in all of history.

 

[Jipsah]

Well then, if you're in irregular guy, you're welcome to try ...

Whee!

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'll answer that if you can explain how it relates to the topic of the thread...

Jesus specifically said that not everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven, universalism says that everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Hmm]

Jesus specifically said that not everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven, universalism says that everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

That's new to me. Where does he say that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s not a matter of ignoring verses it’s more of a matter of our understanding those verses and often time we get the wrong understanding because we either read only the English words and never look into the original for what the people who it was written to would have understood it to be . For example the verse that says do good to your enemy and pray for him will be like dumping hot coals over there head . I always took that as a way of getting back at them who wants hot coals dumped on them that would be really bad, but I didn’t know that back then fire was a precious they didn’t have bick lighter so if you fire went out the woman would take a jar and put it on there head and walk to someone and ask for a coal to restart the fire and people were stingy with the coals , so by saying you would dump coals on some ones head it was a blessing not a revenge thing like I read it. So those in UR camp don’t ignore verses we just see them in a different light, like the word translated eternal we accept the translation of that being of the age or eon a more literal translation. That’s not ignoring its having what we would say is a better interpretation in view of the whole of scripture. You see I would say that those who don’t interpret it that way are ignoring all the scripture that says Jesus is the savior of the world/it’s God will that none parish/ as in Adam all die in Christ all will live ect. So really it’s not a matter of ignoring it’s a matter of focus and interpretation.

This might be relevant if I were quoting verses that use the words aionios or aion but I’m not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's new to me. Where does he say that?

Matthew 7:21

 

[RickReads]

That's new to me. Where does he say that?

I have to admit, I believe you.

 

[Hmm]

Matthew 7:21

But...but... that doesn't say "not everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven". I'm very confused.

 

[RickReads]

But...but... that doesn't say "not everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven". I'm very confused.

Look in a red letter version of the King James.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

This might be relevant if I were quoting verses that use the words aionios or aion but I’m not.

The whole topic of UR hinges on those words you can’t leave them out

 

[BNR32FAN]

But...but... that doesn't say "not everyone will enter the kingdom of Heaven". I'm very confused.

Oh it’s really simple you see because some people who say to Him Lord Lord will not enter so those people are part of what makes up the word everyone. If some people who say to Him Lord Lord will not enter Heaven then it’s obvious that not everyone will enter Heaven. I mean how can everyone enter Heaven if some don’t? That wouldn’t make sense. In order for everyone to enter Heaven that would mean that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord would have to enter Heaven as well, I mean that’s just common sense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The whole topic of UR hinges on those words you can’t leave them out

Im not trying to leave anything out I’m simply providing other evidence that doesn’t use those words because that argument is inconclusive. However if we can find evidence that isn’t hinged on aion or aionios that refutes universal salvation then we have something this is more conclusive because it can’t simply be dismissed based on the inconclusive definition of the words aion and aionios.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Im not trying to leave anything out I’m simply providing other evidence that doesn’t use those words because that argument is inconclusive. However if we can find evidence that isn’t hinged on aion or aionios that refutes universal salvation then we have something this is more conclusive because it can’t simply be dismissed based on the inconclusive definition of the words aion and aionios.

I think this might be what you want. Rom11:32 “for God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on them all” John 6:38-39 “I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me, That of all which He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” then John 13:3 “ The Father has given all things into Jesus hands. John 3:35 same idea Hebrews 1:2 “Jesus heir of all things “ I think it’s hard to say Jesus will lose most of what he paid for when it says he will lose none, and for those who will say not all are his God says He has placed all things in his hands. (That pesky little word ALL )

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Oh it’s really simple you see because some people who say to Him Lord Lord will not enter so those people are part of what makes up the word everyone. If some people who say to Him Lord Lord will not enter Heaven then it’s obvious that not everyone will enter Heaven. I mean how can everyone enter Heaven if some don’t? That wouldn’t make sense. In order for everyone to enter Heaven that would mean that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord would have to enter Heaven as well, I mean that’s just common sense.

If you can find it I tried to answer that very question. I still can’t figure out how to use all the things on this site. I hope you are better but I did write what I think is a possibility

 

[Hmm]

Oh it’s really simple you see because some people who say to Him Lord Lord will not enter so those people are part of what makes up the word everyone. If some people who say to Him Lord Lord will not enter Heaven then it’s obvious that not everyone will enter Heaven. I mean how can everyone enter Heaven if some don’t? That wouldn’t make sense. In order for everyone to enter Heaven that would mean that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord would have to enter Heaven as well, I mean that’s just common sense.

Oh, I thought because scripture says

"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

and also that

"every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

that, therefore, everyone will be saved. But perhaps there's something wrong with my logic and and your "common sense" interpretation is right.

Anyway, all this is off topic so I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think this might be what you want. Rom11:32 “for God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on them all” John 6:38-39 “I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me, That of all which He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” then John 13:3 “ The Father has given all things into Jesus hands. John 3:35 same idea Hebrews 1:2 “Jesus heir of all things “ I think it’s hard to say Jesus will lose most of what he paid for when it says he will lose none, and for those who will say not all are his God says He has placed all things in his hands. (That pesky little word ALL )

I think the scriptures saying that God might have mercy on all isn’t as conclusive as Christ saying not everyone will enter heaven. Your comparing a verse that says what God might do to a verse that says what He will do and choosing the one that more suits your personal preference. You can’t ignore verses that say what God will do and base doctrines on what they say He might do.

As for John 3:38-39 it does not say that Jesus will lose none. That’s not what the verse says.

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39-40‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The word translated to “will” can also mean “desire” so that’s just as inconclusive as every verse pertaining to eternal punishment based on the same argument that aionios can mean for an age. It’s no secret that God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it will happen. God didn’t desire for man to be sinful either but He knew it would happen just the same. That’s just part of what you have to expect when people are given free will. So if your going to argue that verses containing the word aionios can’t conclusively be proven to refer to something eternal then by that same logic you must also hold to that same logic on the verses containing the word thelema that can either mean something God has declared to be true or something that God desires.

I don’t think it’s hard at all to imagine that Jesus will lose most of what He paid for because that was the plan from the beginning. The whole point of Him dying for everyone was so that no one had any excuses on judgement day. Everyone has equal opportunity and they are solely responsible for their fate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh, I thought because scripture says

"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

and also that

"every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

that, therefore, everyone will be saved. But perhaps there's something wrong with my logic and and your "common sense" interpretation is right.

Anyway, all this is off topic so I'm going to leave it at that.

So what about Matthew 7:21? Does Romans 10:9 cancel out Matthew 7:21? No we have to examine both to see how both can be true. Matthew 7:21 says not all who say to Him Lord Lord will enter. Matthew 7:21 doesn’t say anything about them believing in Him. Yes every tongue will confess that He is Lord and these are the people He will say I never knew you to. The unbelievers who see His second coming and they can’t refute it any longer because by then it will be unrefutable but it will also be too late. What else did Paul say in Romans 10 surrounding that verse?

“that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:9-11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So you see here that Paul was not saying that anyone who says with their mouth “Jesus is Lord” is automatically saved, there’s an “and” there indicating another requirement. Confess with their mouth AND believe with their heart.