Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[BNR32FAN]

If you can find it I tried to answer that very question. I still can’t figure out how to use all the things on this site. I hope you are better but I did write what I think is a possibility

Im sorry I didn’t see it brother.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Oh, I thought because scripture says

"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

and also that

"every tongue will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

that, therefore, everyone will be saved. But perhaps there's something wrong with my logic and and your "common sense" interpretation is right.

Anyway, all this is off topic so I'm going to leave it at that.

Yea it does say that but we’re does it say that can only be done in the mortal body why can’t people do that after death of this body just like all the OT people had to do. Unless they got to heaven by a different path

 

[Hmm]

Yea it does say that but we’re does it say that can only be done in the mortal body why can’t people do that after death of this body just like all the OT people had to do. Unless they got to heaven by a different path

No, I think we're in agreement. Clearly not everyone confesses Christ as Lord in this life (if that's what you mean by "mortal body") and so, for this prophesy to be true, they must do so in the next.

 

[JulieB67]

It’s not a matter of ignoring verses it’s more of a matter of our understanding those verses and often time we get the wrong understanding because we either read only the English words and never look into the original

No, that's not true. UR actually changes the meanings of even the original words like -death.
UR apparently doesn't believe the second death really means death.

Greek word 2288 thanatos, death, deadly, death. If death doesn't really mean death, what else can be changed? It's good to take things back to the original Hebrew/Greek when at all possible. I often do. But we can't presume something means something entirely different when it's not written at all that way, especially in the original.

There are other words to describe redemptive measures and that's not one of them. And to use verses when God tries somebody in their lifetime symbolic of refining them through fire is not the same thing as the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his. To even claim it's the same thing is totally off the mark. Again our Father tests and tries his elect through their lifetime, not after Judgement day.

For example -

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."


Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Anyone can pull verses out of context to prove anything. The above verse was quoted to me from someone on this board promoting UR- but of course left out verse 13:8.

We have to keep things in context.

So if taking the word death back to the Greek? What is your definition?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No, that's not true, UR actually changes the meanings of even the original words like -death.
UR doesn't believe the second death really means death.

Greek word 2288 thanatos, death, deadly, death. If death doesn't really mean death, what else can be changed?

There are other words to describe redemptive measures and that's not one of them. And to use verses when God tries somebody in their lifetime symbolic of refining them through fire is not the same thing as the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his. To even claim it's the same thing is totally off the mark. Again our Father tests and tries his elect through their lifetime, not after Judgement day.

For example -

Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."


Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

Anyone can pull verses out of context to prove anything. The above verse was quoted to me from someone on this board promoting UR- but of course left out verse 13:8.

We have to keep things in context.

So if taking the word death back to the Greek? What is your definition?

No we do not change the meaning of death, we take Jesus at his word when he says the last enemy to be conquered is death. If one person remains in the lake of fire death is not conquered it goes on for eternity? How is death conquered if it never ends?

 

[public hermit]

Greek word 2288 thanatos, death, deadly, death. If death doesn't really mean death, what else can be changed?

Early Christians spoke of death as sleep. Jesus spoke of death that way. If you want death to mean death you're already outside the bounds of a Christian understanding. One can't be blamed for allowing the ambiguity of the first death to carry over to the second. We don't know what the second death entails in full, but we know the first one is not destruction/end, despite the phenomenal experience of it appearing as a definite end.

 

[JulieB67]

If one person remains in the lake of fire death is not conquered it goes on for eternity? How is death conquered if it never ends?

No one remains in the Lake of Fire. That's what the second death means. It's the death of the soul which goes hand in hand with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28. The smoke rises forever but anyone thrown in will be turned to ashes from within. That's what a fire does.

Christ also states that those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed because the power of the second death will not fall on them. And yet you're saying the second death has no power regardless. A complete contradiction to Christ's words.

 

[JulieB67]

but we know the first one is not destruction/end,

That's the entire point of Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28 where he describes the death of both body and "soul". We are not to fear the first death (flesh) but we are certainly to fear one that can destroy both body and soul.

 

[public hermit]

That's the entire point of Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28 where he describes the death of both body and "soul". We are not to fear the first death (flesh) but we are certainly to fear one that can destroy both body and soul.

What is your position? Annihilation?

To be clear, I dont assume you must take a position. If you refuse to take a position because the scriptures are ambiguous on the issue, I will honor your doxastic humility.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No one remains in the Lake of Fire. That's what the second death means. It's the death of the soul which goes hand in hand with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28. The smoke rises forever but anyone thrown in will be turned to ashes from within. That's what a fire does.

Christ also states that those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed because the power of the second death will not fall on them. And yet you're saying the second death has no power regardless. A complete contradiction to Christ's words.

Yes those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed we get to be part of Jesus family we will rule and rein with him ,he even says we will sit with him on his throne. No one else gets that reward. Not even the OT followers of God they get a promise land a heavenly home. And yes it is the death of the soul that is why scripture tells us God can separate even soul from spirit those people live on in spirit but every thing that they made of themselves dies and that is a permanent judgement they never get it back. We are made in the image of God we have a spirit that never dies, our body dies (unless we are alive at the second coming) our soul can die but our spirit lives forever.

 

[JulieB67]

What is your position? Annihilation

Yes, it is. I was taught ECT at a young age but the scriptures tell me that death actually means death. Destroy when taken back to the Greek says to me that it's a complete destruction.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Yes, it is. I was taught ECT at a young age but the scriptures tell me that death actually means death. Destroy when taken back to the Greek says to me that it's a complete destruction.

I know for myself If UR were not true then that would be the only option ECT is not

 

[JulieB67]

Yes those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed we get to be part of Jesus family we will rule and rein with him ,he even says we will sit with him on his throne. No one else gets that reward. Not even the OT followers of God they get a promise land a heavenly home. And yes it is the death of the soul that is why scripture tells us God can separate even soul from spirit those people live on in spirit but every thing that they made of themselves dies and that is a permanent judgement they never get it back. We are made in the image of God we have a spirit that never dies, our body dies (unless we are alive at the second coming) our soul can die but our spirit lives forever.

But believing as you do you don't think anyone "ultimately" perishes and that's not what the word states. In fact it's quite the opposite.

I know for myself If UR were not true then that would be the only option ECT is not

To me, it's our Father blotting out everyone that doesn't want to spend the eternity with him. Some don't.

 

[public hermit]

Yes, it is. I was taught ECT at a young age but the scriptures tell me that death actually means death. Destroy when taken back to the Greek says to me that it's a complete destruction.

I think the more varied voices in this discussion the better it is. May God bless you. I like to give ECT hell, myself.

ETA: I bet you love 2 Peter. I was reading it again today. It reeks of annihilation. If it were our only source, that would be doctrine.

 

[JulieB67]

I think the more varied voices in this discussion the better it is. May God bless you. I like to give ECT hell, myself.

Well, there are quite a few who think my position is worse than ECT lol

ETA I do agree with both of you ECT is not what I see.

Off to work..

 

[Jeff Saunders]

But believing as you do you don't think anyone "ultimately" perishes and that's not what the word states. In fact it's quite the opposite.



To me, it's our Father blotting out everyone that doesn't want to spend the eternity with him. Some don't.

I do believe we are triune people we have a body a soul and a spirit, we know the body dies(unless we are Christian at the second coming) we also know that those who do not follow God while in the mortal body there soul dies but never have I read that our spirit dies. All to often do people think that our time on earth is all there is but it’s just the beginning what we do here is only a test for eternity. Will we be part of Gods kingdom or will we be subjects of that kingdom.

 

[Hillsage]

Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven only those who do the will of My Father may enter.

YLT MAT 7:21 'Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavenS; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavenS.

The Greek word for "doing" is a present tense 'doing', not a past tense 'DONE' or 'DID'. IOW, I 'DID/DONE' the 'past tense' will of the Father, when I received Jesus as savior. For me, this verse contextually pertains to the 'working out of the salvation' of your soul (Phil 2:12), and not 'receiving the salvation of your spirit.'

He who blasphemes the Spirit will never be forgiven.

MAT 12:31-32 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age/aion or in the age/aion to come.

So is it 'eternal' or is it for a couple of ages? Ages starting with the age Jesus spoke these words. But, over 60 years later Eph 2:7 confirms there are ages, plural yet to come, beyond the age that verse was written.

MAR 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never/aion forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal/aionios damnation.

The word "never" is not in the Greek. It is the word "AGES/AION" same as Mat 12:31, indicating no forgiveness to 'the age'. That, of course depends on bible INTERPETATIONS.

Matt 28:20 "I am with you always, even unto the end of the AGE/AION."

When it fits false theology AION/AIONIOS is interpreted as an age or eternity. Assinine, that is no definition at all for one root word to mean 'a period of time' or 'eternity'.

but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.

My NAS bible has margin notes saying that 'the man' who would have been better off if he wasn't born was JESUS, not Judas. And, once again the YLT better reveals that 'truth', I believe.

YLT MAT 26:24 the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! good it were for him/Jesus if that man/Judas had not been born.'

Not good for Jesus because He did nothing to deserve death, and He didn't even want to die. He even appealed his case to the Father in that regard to "let this cup pass from me" concerning His 'shed blood death'. But it was good for Judas...and you...and me.

How the word of God sits with a person is the root of the problem. Truth isn’t subjective to interpretation it remains a constant despite interpretation. People can’t change the truth by ignoring verses no matter how appealing it might seem to them.

I agree totally. Now we must be about the business of seeing who washed our brains, to begin with. I, for one have released a lot of 'false doctrine' taught as 'the truth'. Some of it came from lies when I was born/raised a Catholic, some of it was lies when I became a Lutheran for 2 years after I had actually been born again and Holy Spirit baptized, other errors came from general theologies believed by most of the '666 denominations' (sic) the devil has birthed into existence with 2 millennia of church divisiveness.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

But believing as you do you don't think anyone "ultimately" perishes and that's not what the word states. In fact it's quite the opposite.



To me, it's our Father blotting out everyone that doesn't want to spend the eternity with him. Some don't.

The only reason they don’t want to spend eternity with him is because sin has so clouded there judgement that they can’t see Gods love once that is burned away in the lake of fire they will see the love of God, just like we did , and no one can resist that love forever. God never gives up on his creation. What makes us so special that what we see in Gods love while in the body , no one else can see it also. We keep thinking that the here and now is all there is to God the whole thing is one big story he has made and this time on earth is just one chapter in a incredible story of a loving God who loves his creation and has a plan to restore it all. Isn’t our God wonderful.

 

[RileyG]

Why is it so hard to believe that a all loving all powerful God could not possibly win over someone as hitler? Or even satan himself someday I don’t find that hard to do with a God of the impossible, kind of like what Jesus said with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible. (sorry I threw in that nasty word ALL)

Pride. Those with pride won’t change. Satan is incapable of change.

God never forces himself on anyone.

 

[public hermit]

Pride. Those with pride won’t change. Satan is incapable of change.

God never forces himself on anyone.

We live in a world where God is hidden. The disciples didn't follow Christ because they had free will, they followed him because they had never seen such things; he was not of this world and yet good beyond fail. They saw his beauty, goodness, and truth; they were drawn to him. He chose them.

You can't tell me that God can't reveal the glory and goodness and beauty of the divine and draw all people there. It means nothing if it doesn't mean all will believe and bend their knee when it becomes obvious. Hard hearts. pfft. Child's play.