Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[Leaf473]

Here is a thought for your consideration: When scripture teaches, as it certainly does, that Jesus was obedient, it was not the Law that Jesus was obedient to, but rather He was obedient to Israel's mandate to be the means by which the world would be rescued from sin.

There is a whole line of thinking that runs like this:

- God gives Israel the mission of being the means by which "the nations will be blessed".
- Israel is "faithless"; she fails in this mission
- Jesus enters the picture on Israel's behalf and He is the one who is "obedient" to this mission.

This is only a rough sketch of the idea.

In any event, I think it is clear Jesus was not obedient to the Law of Moses - he violates the Sabbath, repeals the purity laws about food, and refuses to stone a woman caught in adultery (as the law required).

That's definitely a line of thinking worth considering!

That story of Jesus refusing to Stone the woman is a big problem, assuming that it is scripture (there are some real textual questions about it).

Some people say that there hadn't been a proper Court proceeding and that the man involved should have been there as well. Those are probably both true, but it seems like it would be up to Jesus to correct the situation. As it is, he's kind of teaching that only a sinless person could be involved in a stoning, which makes the law to stone adulterers basically pointless.

 

[Leaf473]

Everyone (except Messianics) believes that at least some part of the law is no longer to be followed today.

Therefore, at least one of these two conditions have been met:

Until heaven and Earth pass away

Until all is accomplished

 

[guevaraj]

We have been through this before. We all know that Jesus instruct His contemporaries to follow the 10. But this does not preclude the possibility that the Law will be retired later, for example at the cross.

Brother, Jesus wants us to obey 11 commandments in the new covenant with the addition of "one thing you haven't done", which was not possible before Jesus, His "new commandment"!

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

I am curious, what do you think Paul means here: But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul contrasts the surpassing fullness of Jesus by showing us what to do instead of telling us what to do before Jesus. Jesus clarifies below what Paul says above. If love were a simple circle drawn on a page, before Jesus we were mainly told about the boundary of the circle in the oldness of the letter in the ten commandments. What actions would put us outside the circle by the commandments that tell us what not to do, while Jesus shows us how to fill the circle by following His example in what He did throughout His life and how He did God's work in His ministry. The additional eleventh commandment by Jesus fills the circle with the "one thing you haven't done" in newness of the Spirit, reminding us of the exemplary life of Jesus. While the previous ten mainly prevented us from crossing the boundary of the circle to stay within the circle, Jesus' life in the form of stories shows us how to fill the circle in how He lived His life and how He went about doing His ministry.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[expos4ever]

Brother, Jesus wants us to obey 11 commandments in the new covenant with the addition of "one thing you haven't done",....

You are simply repeating your previous post and entirely evading my argument!

Readers will see this! Please address my point, here it is again:

We have been through this before. We all know that Jesus instruct His contemporaries to follow the 10. But this does not preclude the possibility that the Law will be retired later, for example at the cross.

There are many posts in this thread that argue, from scripture, that the law, including the 10, end at the cross.

Please at least try to address them.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul contrasts the surpassing fullness of Jesus by showing us what to do instead of telling us what to do before Jesus. Jesus clarifies below what Paul says above. If love were a simple circle drawn on a page, before Jesus we were mainly told about the boundary of the circle in the oldness of the letter in the ten commandments. What actions would put us outside the circle by the commandments that tell us what not to do, while Jesus shows us how to fill the circle by following His example in what He did throughout His life and how He did God's work in His ministry. The additional eleventh commandment by Jesus fills the circle with the "one thing you haven't done" in newness of the Spirit, reminding us of the exemplary life of Jesus. While the previous ten mainly prevented us from crossing the boundary of the circle to stay within the circle, Jesus' life in the form of stories shows us how to fill the circle in how He lived His life and how He went about doing His ministry.

Please, just answer the specific question I posed. Let me make it easier for you. Please complete this sentence:

"In Romans 7:6, Paul is telling us that.................."

Let me be direct: I think you cannot answer this question without being forced to essentially rewrite Paul's wording. But we'll see what you come up with.

Your answer above is a meandering effort that simply evades engaging with the specific words in Romans 7:6.

Fine, appeal to the wider Biblical context if you must. But, please, deal with the actual text of 7:6. For example, when Paul says we no longer serve according to the letter, what does he mean?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What this means is that the Sabbath cannot be a "shadow law" because there was no sin. What your posting about here has nothing to do with what I have been talking to you about earlier from the scriptures in my posts to you. Genuine question. What do you think my earlier posts to you were saying and what my argument is?

That Sabbath was not a law, commandment or instruction (shadow or eternal)
at all until Moses. See post #279.


I tried to summarize your argument earlier.

Thank you, LoveGodsWord, for such a detailed and documented statement of your belief.


If I may summarize.


You believe that Moses recorded the process of a literal 6 day creation followed by a day of rest as represented in Genesis. And even though there is no command or instruction in Genesis to “Keep” the Sabbath, you believe that it is in fact a commandment there “for all mankind” and not just the Hebrews Moses addressed.


You also believe then, that Jesus’ instruction of Mark 2:27 was also for all mankind and not just applicable to the context of pre crucifixion instruction to Jewish people he was addressing.


You also believe that a distinction must be made between Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the old covenant that all prefigure Christ and Gods' eternal laws that in the new covenant give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed).


Finally, you believe that It is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a shadow of anything because it points backwards as a memorial of and celebration of the finished work of creation not forwards to things to come.

 

[guevaraj]

You are simply repeating your previous post and entirely evading my argument! Readers will see this! Please address my point, here it is again: We have been through this before. We all know that Jesus instruct His contemporaries to follow the 10. But this does not preclude the possibility that the Law will be retired later, for example at the cross. There are many posts in this thread that argue, from scripture, that the law, including the 10, end at the cross. Please at least try to address them.

Brother, Jesus did not fulfill everything the prophets said about Him! The reason why Judaism does not accept Jesus is because Jesus did not hit the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, like the rock that destroys all earlier empires and establishes a kingdom that will "never" end.

In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. (Daniel 2:44-45a NIV)​

As Jesus said, the law remains with one more commandment added to the ten already given before the incarnation by His own finger!

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, (John 5:37 NIV)​

I am saved by rapid growth through the new faster way of Jesus as our greatest example of righteousness and faster forgiveness as our High Priest than the old way of animal sacrifice by obeying 11 commandments that surpassed the old way of just 10 commandments. Next, Jesus demands the new way with the additional eleventh commandment as the "one thing you haven't done" while keeping the previous ten commandments.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[expos4ever]

Brother, Jesus did not fulfill everything the prophets said about Him! The reason why Judaism does not accept Jesus is because Jesus did not hit the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, like the rock that destroys all earlier empires and establishes a kingdom that will "never" end.

Irrelevant to the matter of whether the 10 have been retired.

In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands-- a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. (Daniel 2:44-45a NIV)

Again, entirely irrelevant.

As Jesus said, the law remains with one more commandment added to the ten already given before the incarnation by His own finger!

Where does scripture ever claim that Jesus says the law is in force this side of the cross?

Are you going to cite statements like "the Law stays until heaven and earth pass away"? Or "the Law stays until 'all is finished"?

If so, I suggest you read some of my posts in this thread about those texts and be prepared to address my arguments.

 

[expos4ever]

I didn't address the opinion about Matthew 5 because you provided no scripture to support your theory. Our opinions do not matter only God's Word does.

False.

I did provide scripture. To wit, I provided this text from Isaiah that is widely acknowledged as a prophecy about the fall of Babylon - something that has already happened:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

This is end-of-the-world language used to refer to events that, in fact, have already taken place. The point: Jesus is part of this Jewish tradition of using such language to describe events in the here and now.

And, as you must know, I also cited John 19:30:

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Now Jesus (in Matt 5) says the law will end when, yes, all is accomplished.

You have to believe this is a coincidence.

Please stop with the false statements: I most certainly did use scripture in my argument about Matt 5.

 

[expos4ever]

Our faith upholds the law Romans 3:31...... 5:32

I agree that Romans 3:31 is somewhat of a challenge. In another thread, if not this thread, I engaged Romans 3:31 head on:

Here is that famous Romans 3:31 passage:

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

On the surface, this seems like a ringing endorsement of the position that that Law, including the 10, remains in force.

But, of course, we also have this from the same letter:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Obviously, there appears to be a contradiction.

Now back to Romans 3: Paul starts with a treatment of how both Jew and Gentile are sinners even though the Jew was entrusted with "the actual words of God". Next we get this critical transition:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed,....

Paul is telling us about an unfolding story, and pointing out where we are in that story. And where are we? We are at the point where Jesus enters the story and justification by faith is made clear (as opposed to justification by the Law).

This leads to the obvious question - was the Law a mistake?

Do we then nullify the Law through faith?

Answer: no, we "establish" the Law in the very specific sense that we affirm its fundamental goodness and proper role in the evolving redemption narrative even though the Law has fulfilled its role and can be retired.

This, I suggest, is a plausible way to understand Romans 3:31.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

False.

I did provide scripture. To wit, I provided this text from Isaiah that is widely acknowledged as a prophecy about the fall of Babylon - something that has already happened:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

This is end-of-the-world language used to refer to events that, in fact, have already taken place. The point: Jesus is part of this Jewish tradition of using such language to describe events in the here and now.

And, as you must know, I also cited John 19:30:

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Now Jesus (in Matt 5) says the law will end when, yes, all is accomplished.

You have to believe this is a coincidence.

Please stop with the false statements: I most certainly did use scripture in my argument about Matt 5.

Sorry I should have clarified, there is no scripture that supports this opinion, the scripture you provided does not support your commentary.

Fulfilled in Matthew 5 does not mean destroy so Jesus is not contradicting Himself. Fulfilled in Matthew 5 means to fill full. Like when one fulfills their marriage vows- does that mean we can disregard and commit adultery? If one wants to read Matthew 5 correctly Jesus is clearly not giving permission that we do not have to obey the commandments. He actually says quite the opposite.

Matthew 5: 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is expanding on the laws, not changing or doing away with.

Murder Begins in the Heart
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

I'm still going to stick with the words of Jesus and He never says that we are free to break the commandments of God, He instead teaches us to keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17-19, John 14:15 Matthew 15:3-9, Mark 7:6-8, Matthew 7:21-23 as well as the disciples 1 John 5:3, James 2:10-12, 1 Cor 7:19, Revelation 14:12. Revelation 22:14-15 to name just a few.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree that Romans 3:31 is somewhat of a challenge. In another thread, if not this thread, I engaged Romans 3:31 head on:

Here is that famous Romans 3:31 passage:

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

On the surface, this seems like a ringing endorsement of the position that that Law, including the 10, remains in force.

But, of course, we also have this from the same letter:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Obviously, there appears to be a contradiction.

Now back to Romans 3: Paul starts with a treatment of how both Jew and Gentile are sinners even though the Jew was entrusted with "the actual words of God". Next we get this critical transition:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed,....

Paul is telling us about an unfolding story, and pointing out where we are in that story. And where are we? We are at the point where Jesus enters the story and justification by faith is made clear (as opposed to justification by the Law).

This leads to the obvious question - was the Law a mistake?

Do we then nullify the Law through faith?

Answer: no, we "establish" the Law in the very specific sense that we affirm its fundamental goodness and proper role in the evolving redemption narrative even though the Law has fulfilled its role and can be retired.

This, I suggest, is a plausible way to understand Romans 3:31.

The law of God is PERFECT Pslam 19:7 according to scripture just like God is. The only mistakes are those misinterpreting Paul which scripture warns about doing so....2 Peter 3:15-16 Take care

 

[expos4ever]

The law of God is PERFECT Pslam 19:7 according to scripture just like God is. The only mistakes are those misinterpreting Paul which scripture warns about doing so....2 Peter 3:15-16 Take care

And?

How does this post add to the discussion? We all know that either you or I are mistaken.

How do you know that the warning should be heeded by me and not you? Am I systematically misrepresenting other posters here, as you are?

I am certainly not the one taking a hatchet to Romans 7:6, for example.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And?

How does this post add to the discussion? We all know that either you or I are mistaken.

How do you know that the warning should be heeded by me and not you? Am I systematically misrepresenting other posters here, as you are?

I am certainly not the one taking a hatchet to Romans 7:6, for example.

That easy:

Keeping the commandments of God does no harm- but breaking them does. And God says so!

God says: showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6

Jesus repeats: If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15

John: This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3

Paul: What matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19

Jesus again: Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Found in Exodus 20

James:2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

This is the fruit of a saved person which reconciles with God, Jesus, and the
apostles:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And a warning for those who do not keep:

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That Sabbath was not a law, commandment or instruction (shadow or eternal) at all until Moses. See post #279. I tried to summarize your argument earlier.

Hello AS. You tried to summarize my argument earlier and did not get it right. According to the scriptures Gods' Sabbath is a commandment given after mankind sinned *Exodus 20:8-11 but was, according to Jesus, made for mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3. In fact God's Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments that according to the scriptures give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *see Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to James if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand before God guilty of sin *see James 2:10-11. According to the scriptures if we continue in known unrepentant sin after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God *see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31. Now what have I shared with you here that is not Gods' Word?

Take Care now

 

[expos4ever]

In fact God's Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments that according to the scriptures give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *see Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20;

Once more, about Romans 3:20:

Romans 3:20 (with context)

20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets..

Note that verses 1 - 20 is a story about the past. Here, Paul refers to the giving of the Law:

Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Paul is telling us about history. And in verse 20, he arrives in the present:

But now apart from the Law ....

So the stuff in verse 20 about the Law giving knowledge of sin, is, yes, in the past. Why would Paul say "but now" if he was not saying "this stuff I have just been telling you is now behind us"?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Once more, about Romans 3:20:

Romans 3:20 (with context)

20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets..

Note that verses 1 - 20 is a story about the past. Here, Paul refers to the giving of the Law:

Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Paul is telling us about history. And in verse 20, he arrives in the present:

But now apart from the Law ....

So the stuff in verse 20 about the Law giving knowledge of sin, is, yes, in the past. Why would Paul say "but now" if he was not saying "this stuff I have just been telling you is now behind us"?

ROMANS 3:20 WITH PARALLEL TRANSLATIONS

Romans 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Parallel translations.

New International Version
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

English Standard Version
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Berean Study Bible
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore by works of the Law, not any flesh will be justified before Him; for through the Law is knowledge of sin.

King James Bible
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

New King James Version
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

New American Standard Bible
because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

NASB 1995
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

NASB 1977
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Christian Standard Bible
For no one will be justified in his sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.

American Standard Version
because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because by works of The Written Law no one is justified before him, for by The Written Law sin has been made known.

Contemporary English Version
God doesn't accept people simply because they obey the Law. No, indeed! All the Law does is to point out our sin.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Good News Translation
For no one is put right in God's sight by doing what the Law requires; what the Law does is to make us know that we have sinned.

International Standard Version
Therefore, God will not justify any human being by means of the actions prescribed by the Law, for through the Law comes the full knowledge of sin.

Literal Standard Version
for this reason by works of law will no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

New American Bible
since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin.

NET Bible
For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

New Revised Standard Version
For “no human being will be justified in his sight” by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

New Heart English Bible
Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Weymouth New Testament
For on the ground of obedience to Law no man living will be declared righteous before Him. Law simply brings a sure knowledge of sin.

World English Bible
Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Young's Literal Translation
wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.​

..............

Now if someone says to you the purpose of God's law in the new covenant is to give us a knowledge of what sin is and they quote Romans 3:20 with other supporting scripture from Paul like Romans 7:7 stating the same thing why are you trying to argue with the scriptures that state that the purpose of Gods' law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken (James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4)?

Let's add some scripture context back into the discussion that your disregarding. Gods' law has the the same role as it always has and that is to give us a knowledge of what sin is.

ROMANS 3:21 "But now"

In answer to your other question the "But now" from *Romans 3:21 is not in disagreement to Romans 3:20 that states through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is. Romans 3:21 is continuing on the same thought in context to Romans 3:9-20 and that is all of us have sinned according to the law so what do we do? He says "But now" all you sinners condemned by the law, the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. That is where the law leads us. According to the scriptures, God's law leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven or justified through faith *Galatians 3:22-25 because we have all sinned and broken the law (see context of Romans 3:9-19). All the law and the prophets pointed to Christ and this is where the law leads us.

God's law shows us that we are all sinners and have sinned against God and none of us are righteous no not one (Romans 3:9-11). This is all the context prior to Romans 3:20 shown by Paul in Romans 3:9-19. Paul continues to disagree with you in the scripture context right through to Romans 3:31 where he says that faith does not abolish God's law like you are teachings. Genuine faith establishes or obeys God's law. Paul is in disagreement with you here as shown in the scripture context your disregarding in your posts once more. "Do we then abolish the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31

Take Care now.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The point, of course, is that Jesus rises on the first day of the new week! This is not a coincidence - new creation has begun. The Sabbath was there to honor the "first round" of God's work. We are now in round two.
To continue to honour the Sabbath is to, at least symbolically, deny where we are in God's evolving narrative of redemption.

Let's be honest. There is no scripture that says Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished as we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest now is there. Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. Jesus warns us in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. This then begs the question who are we worshiping; God or man?

Take Care now.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I suggest that Scripture does teach that we are to move on from the Sabbath.

I see so show me the scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? - There is no scripture. There is no scripture commanding us to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. Your peddling in man-made teachings and traditions that are not supported in the scriptures that are false teachings.

Any reader who is following this thread carefully will know that you have evaded my argument about how Jesus rises on the first day of a new week and that this signals new creation and that this, in turn, implies that to keep honouring the Sabbath amounts to denying that God's plan has, in fact, moved on.

Actually it is the other way around. It is you that has been trying to evade my posts and arguments by micro-quoting parts of my posts and ignoring the content of my posts and arguments. I welcome anyone to follow the conversation through to see that your claims here have no truth in them.

You guys do this often - refuse to engage arguments that are challenging for you. For example, I believe no one has even attempted to refute detailed argument that Jesus uses not-to-be-taken-literally, apocalyptic, "end-of-the-world" language in Matthew 5 when he sets an expiration date for the law.

Your post is not truthful. Everyone of your claims and arguments have been addressed section by section and scripture by scripture adding back the context of scripture that shows your claims are not truthful and not biblical. God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law). This is a false teaching designed to lead those who believe it away from God and His Word.

Take Care now.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What did Jesus think about keeping the Sabbath? From Greg Boyd (Jesus Refuted Old Testament Laws - Greg Boyd - ReKnew)

This article that you posted is a good example of a false teaching of lawlessness (without law) from the teachings of traditions of man taking scripture out of context to and adding false meanings to Gods' Word in order to lead those who do not know the scriptures away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God but lets see why from the scriptures if it might be helpful to the discussion here.

Greg Boyd said: Although it’s clear that Jesus regarded the Old Testament as the inspired word of God, he also directly challenged aspects of the Old Testament law. To illustrate, Jesus was repudiating Sabbath law when he defended his disciples’ harvesting of food on the Sabbath (Mt 12:1-14; cf. Ex. 34:21).

The claims here are that Matthew 12:1-14 and Exodus 34:21 is saying Jesus is repudiating the Sabbath law. Where in the scriptures that have been provided does it say Jesus is repudiating, repealing, abolishing the Sabbath law? - Nowhere! Matthew 12:1-14 is Jesus and His disciples not working on the Sabbath but eating corn directly from the field repudiating the man-made laws of the Scribes and Pharisees and teaching the people what it means to keep the Sabbath as a holy day by showing that in Gods' eyes it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day see Matthew 12:12.

Greg Boyd said:Some scholars argue that the disciples were merely violating a Pharisaical tradition surrounding the Sabbath, not any actual OT law regarding the Sabbath.

Correct, there is no old testament law stating you cannot go into a field when hungry and eat directly from the field. This is different to working on the Sabbath and going into the field to harvest the field and getting paid for working in a field. So how did Jesus break any scriptural law? - He didn't. Think it through if Jesus broke the law then that would make Him a sinner and we would all be lost.

Greg Boyd said: In this view, Jesus was trying to bring out the true meaning of Sabbath (i.e., showing that the Sabbath was made for humans, not humans for the Sabbath) and to demonstrate his authority as Lord of the Sabbath.

Correct. In fulfillment of the scriptures from Isaiah 42:21 Jesus was teaching the true meaning of the Sabbath and that He as Lord and creator of the Sabbath made it for man and He did not make man for the Sabbath to be a burden for man *Mark 2:27-28; The Sabbath is for mans blessing and rest and according to Jesus it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day *Matthew 12:12.

Greg Boyd said: While I grant that this was certainly part of Jesus’ intent, I do not see how this absolves his disciples from the charge of Sabbath-breaking.

You would need to first find and show scripture that the disciples were breaking the Sabbath as they were not working on the Sabbath they were eating corn directly from the field.

Greg Boyd said: After all, according to the OT—not merely a Jewish tradition—people were to be executed merely for picking up sticks on the Sabbath (Nu 15:32-36).

The disciples were not gathering corn or harvesting corn on the Sabbath. They were eating corn in the field because they were hungry. When the Scribes and the Pharisees accused the disciples of breaking the Sabbath Jesus said to them "have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungry, and they that were with him and how he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Jesus goes on to say that if they know who is talking to them they would know that God desired mercy over sacrifice and that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day. *Matthew 12:1-12.

Now let's talk about Numbers 15:32-36. If we add some context back by looking at Numbers 15:29-31 (see also Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2) you will see that the person stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath for making a fire did so out of known disregard for breaking Gods 4th commandment. This is not the same as Matthew 12:1-12 as none of the disciples were harvesting or gathering corn they were eating the corn directly from the field because they were hungry. According to the scriptures, if anyone in the old covenant was caught openly and publicly in known unrepentant sin breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments they were to be put to death. The death penalty for breaking the Sabbath was not restricted to Gods' 4th commandment but to all of Gods' 10 commandments (see Deuteronomy 17:1-5; 14:6-10; Exodus 22:20; Exodus 20:4; Deuteronomy 27: 15; Leviticus 24:16; Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2; Exodus 21:15-17; see Leviticus 24:17; Numbers 35:31-33; Leviticus 20:10; John 8:3-5; Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 19:15-21; Joshua 7:21-25).

This was to teach Gods' people that the wages of sin is death *Romans 6:23. This of course all ceased during the time of Christ when Israel was under Roman rule and law and at the death of Christ bringing an end to the old covenant and the bringing in of the new covenant. The death penalty is still in force today because it is written that the wages of sin is death for those that do not repent before the time of judgement is finished (Romans 6:23; James 2:8-12) but enforcement of the death penalty does not take place until the second coming (see Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8 etc etc).

Greg Boyd said:
Moreover, Moses’ prohibition against doing work on the Sabbath explicitly included a prohibition on gathering food (i.e., manna) (Ex. 16:23-29). Hence, in this particular instance it seems the Pharisee’s had some biblical basis for their criticism of Jesus.

As already shown from the scriptures, the disciples were not gathering food, they were not harvesting corn like the Israelite's were harvesting manna they were eating corn directly from the field because they were hungry. Jesus says it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day and desired mercy not sacrifice and that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. The scriptures do not teach lawlessness (without law) and they are certainly not teaching what your teaching. If we want to know the truth of Gods Word we need to turn away from the teachings and traditions of men as seek God for it through His World praying for His Spirit to be our guide and teacher *John 7:17.

Take Care now