Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

[expos4ever]

Isn't this exactly what you have unsuccessfully been trying to do here?

Obviously false. And readers will know this. I have repeatedly done much more than cite single verses. To wit:

- I have used clear Biblical precedent to argue that what Jesus says (Matt 5) about the law lasting till heaven and earth pass away is not to be taken literally.

- I have shown using context that Romans 3:20 does not apply now.

- I have shown using context that the endorsement of the law in Romans 7:7 does not mean that the law is still in effect.

- I have argued that Jesus rises on the 1st day of the new week indicating new creation - this strongly suggests that to keep the Saturday Sabbath effectively denies this insofar as that honours a first round of God's creative activity that, wonderful as it was, has been superseded. One would need to have struck on the head many times to not see this is an argument that is not based on "a verse".

- I have argued that scripture is an evolving narrative, again appealing to broad Biblical themes, not "a verse".

Had enough?

Your claim that I have been only been quoting singel verses is demonstrably incorrect.

 

[expos4ever]

God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law). This is a false teaching designed to lead those who believe it away from God and His Word.

It is indeed a false teaching. And one that, despite repeated misrepresentations, I have never endorsed.

It's not my fault that you guys effectively take this statement from God's word:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

....and edit it thus:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness violation of the 10 commandents in particular (no other laws, even the commandments of Jesus "count")

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It is indeed a false teaching. And one that, despite repeated misrepresentations, I have never endorsed.

It's not my fault that you guys effectively take this statement from God's word:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

....and edit it thus:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness violation of the 10 commandents in particular (no other laws, even the commandments of Jesus "count")

You seem to be wanting to make a whole doctrine from this one verse. It's never wise to make a whole doctrine out of one verse especially when it contradicts the rest of the bible. Usually, it means one does not have a good understanding on what is written. Scripture warns us about many who misunderstand Pauls writing 2 Peter 3:15.

The scriptures and explanation of this verse has been shared with you many times so it looks like we will have to agree to disagree and when Jesus comes back which I think is soon, everything will get sorted out. I pray when He comes that we will all be ready, myself included. I pray He comes soon, this world is filled with lawlessness, I can't imagine the hurt this must cause Jesus after His great sacrifice for us. God bless

 

[Leaf473]

There's a lot of misrepresentation happening on this thread. I hope it is done unconsciously. That is, I hope the people doing the misrepresenting honestly think they are properly representing.

Sometimes when people are placed in a situation that produces cognitive dissonance, they react by distorting some of the things they are presented with. This can often happen so fast that they are unaware that they are doing it.

Grace and peace to all!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There's a lot of misrepresentation happening on this thread. I hope it is done unconsciously. That is, I hope the people doing the misrepresenting honestly think they are properly representing.

Sometimes when people are placed in a situation that produces cognitive dissonance, they react by distorting some of the things they are presented with. This can often happen so fast that they are unaware that they are doing it.

Grace and peace to all!

Perhaps some examples would be best. Since you typically don't agree with scriptures I share, or read them differently I am assuming you are directing this to me. If not, you might want to address this to the specific person.

What I see to be honest is some people disregarding a lot of very clear scripture. Most goes unaddressed. The Word of God is not filled with contradictions, just misunderstandings. Even if Paul was properly understood is he above Jesus or God?

I don't think those who we are addressing for either side is going to change their view, but if it helps some who are seeking Truth in scriptures that are reading, that's all we can pray for. Perhaps a seed will flourish down the road for those we are chatting with as well one day.

We should all seek Truth from scriptures. Twisting scriptures to our own destruction is not wise. The Truth brings peace and it shall set you free.

 

[Leaf473]

Perhaps some examples would be best. Since you typically don't agree with scriptures I share, or read them differently I am assuming you are directing this to me. If not, you might want to address this to the specific person.

What I see to be honest is some people disregarding a lot of very clear scripture. Most if it that goes unaddressed. The Word of God is not filled with contradictions, just misunderstandings. Even if Paul was properly understood is he above Jesus or God?

I don't think those who we are addressing for either side is going to change their view, but if it helps some who are seeking Truth in scriptures that are reading, that's all we can pray for. Perhaps a seed will flourish down the road for those we are chatting with as well one day.

We should all seek Truth from scriptures. Twisting scriptures to our own destruction is not wise. The Truth brings peace and it shall set you free.

No, my post wasn't addressed to anyone in particular.

I agree that clear scripture is good. I ask that you post the clear scripture where the laws that you keep are found.

The ten commandments, I understand you keep those. The other laws?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree that clear scripture is good. I ask you to post the clear scripture where the laws that you keep are found.

That has been addressed more than once. :0)

 

[Leaf473]

That has been addressed more than once. :0)

Please tell me where you have posted those scripture references.

 

[Leaf473]

That has been addressed more than once. :0)

Are these the references for the laws that you keep? The laws that you believe didn't end at the cross? Or did you have different scripture references in mind?

Thanks

Your list, then, is:

The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Lev 27:30 All the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the Lord’s. It is holy to the Lord.

Lev. 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

Is the list complete? That is, do you say that is this a complete list of all of God's eternal laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?

Edit: I forgot to include Leviticus 27:30

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Are these the references for the laws that you keep? The laws that you believe didn't end at the cross? Or did you have different scripture references in mind?

As I stated a few times, most of the laws has an umbrella under the Ten Commandments- God's perfect law and the laws I previously listed- paying tithe to God, eating the foods God deemed clean, loving God and man has never been "deleted" from the scriptures. The first 4 commandments are our morally obligation on how to love God and the last six how to love man which is why God's Ten Commandments is perfect and eternal and reflects the character and nature of our Creator and Savior.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Obviously false. And readers will know this. I have repeatedly done much more than cite single verses. To wit:

- I have used clear Biblical precedent to argue that what Jesus says (Matt 5) about the law lasting till heaven and earth pass away is not to be taken literally.

- I have shown using context that Romans 3:20 does not apply now.

- I have shown using context that the endorsement of the law in Romans 7:7 does not mean that the law is still in effect.

- I have argued that Jesus rises on the 1st day of the new week indicating new creation - this strongly suggests that to keep the Saturday Sabbath effectively denies this insofar as that honours a first round of God's creative activity that, wonderful as it was, has been superseded. One would need to have struck on the head many times to not see this is an argument that is not based on "a verse".

- I have argued that scripture is an evolving narrative, again appealing to broad Biblical themes, not "a verse".

Had enough?

Your claim that I have been only been quoting singel verses is demonstrably incorrect.

Sorry but I do not believe anything in this post and have already shown why by addressing your posts section by section and scripture by scripture adding back all the contexts you have disregarded from the scriptures you have left our showing why your teachings of lawlessness (without God's law or Gods' law is abolished) is not biblical and a false teaching which you refuse to discuss with me so we will have to agree to disagree here.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is indeed a false teaching. And one that, despite repeated misrepresentations, I have never endorsed.

It's not my fault that you guys effectively take this statement from God's word:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness

....and edit it thus:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness violation of the 10 commandents in particular (no other laws, even the commandments of Jesus "count")

Please forgive me but I believe this post is not true either so we will have to agree to disagree. Let's talk more when you want to discuss the posts and scriptures shared with you that are in disagreement with your teachings that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished. Until then lets agree to disagree.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What is written on the heart is not letters.

Agreed however, no one can have anything written in their hears without first knowing the letters (the Word of God) because our faith comes by hearing those letters *Romans 10:17 and Gods' Spirit works through the letters as we believe them *John 6:63. It is faith in the truth of God's Word that saves us from our sins *see John 17:17; compare John 8:31-36. So if you do not know the letters how can you have faith when you do not believe *Hebrews 11:6; John 3:36; Romans 14:23? According to the scriptures therefore if we do not have faith in Gods' Word (the letter) you cannot have Gods' Spirit that changes the heart to love and obey what Gods' Word says. This is why Paul says we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but genuine faith does not abolish Gods law it establishes Gods' law through love *see Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10. Faith is how we enter into God's new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

God bless.

 

[expos4ever]

Proponents of the view that the 10 remain in force often cite Romans 3:31. And, at first glance, it does some to assert that the Law, which includes the 10, remains in force:

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law

Now who knows what the range of possible meanings for the greek word translated as "establish" in the NASB really are. For the moment, let's go with "establish".

What is the context? Well, Paul has just finished explaining that we are justified by faith and not Law. This sets up the obvious objection: Paul, are you saying the Law was a mistake? Paul's answer is "no", and then he says, in my opinion, that we "establish" the law in the sense of affirming that is a good thing although it is no longer necessary. Here it would be interesting to see what ranges of possible meanings the original greek would allow. Maybe later.

No doubt there will be howls that I am doing what I have accused other of doing - editing the text by adding something that is not there.

Well I want to point out something interesting. Note that in Romans 7:7, Paul says something good about the law - that it told him what sin was. Of course, this, despite overly simplistic statements to the contrary, does not require use to believe the Law remains in force - I can say something good about a former NFL player who is now retired.

But notice the pattern: In verse 6, Paul tells us we no longer serve the law. Yet in verse 7 and again in 12 he lauds the Law.

My point is this: Romans 7 establishes a clear precedent where Paul affirms the goodness of the law while also affirming its time is over. This, I believes, gives us more justification for thinking that in 3:31, he is doing the same thing - applauding the law, recognizing its important role in God's plan, while also believing is now retired. From chapter 7 we know that Paul has good things to say about the law and we also know he believes it is in the past. These things are not contradictory.

Again, look at the pattern in chapter 3 - Paul has just said that justification has nothing to do with Law. Even if, as I believe to be the case, Paul thinks the law is retired, he is highly motivated to dispel the notion that he is saying the law was irrelevant - hence he "upholds" or "establishes" the law.

 

[Leaf473]

As I stated a few times, most of the laws has an umbrella under the Ten Commandments- God's perfect law and the laws I previously listed- paying tithe to God, eating the foods God deemed clean, loving God and man has never been "deleted" from the scriptures. The first 4 commandments are our morally obligation on how to love God and the last six how to love man which is why God's Ten Commandments is perfect and eternal and reflects the character and nature of our Creator and Savior.

Thanks! Do you keep this law as well, or did it end at the cross?

Leviticus 27:31 If a person redeems anything of their tithe, they shall add a fifth part to it.

 

[Leaf473]

Agreed however, no one can have anything written in their hears without first knowing the letters (the Word of God) because our faith comes by hearing those letters *Romans 10:17 and Gods' Spirit works through the letters as we believe them *John 6:63. It is faith in the truth of God's Word that saves us from our sins *see John 17:17; compare John 8:31-36. So if you do not know the letters how can you have faith when you do not believe *Hebrews 11:6; John 3:36; Romans 14:23? According to the scriptures therefore if we do not have faith in Gods' Word (the letter) you cannot have Gods' Spirit that changes the heart to love and obey what Gods' Word says. This is why Paul says we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but genuine faith does not abolish Gods law it establishes Gods' law through love *see Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10. Faith is how we enter into God's new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

God bless.

Are you saying that someone has to know all the letters of the entire law before God is able to write anything on their heart?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks! Do you keep this law as well, or did it end at the cross?

Leviticus 27:31 If a person redeems anything of their tithe, they shall add a fifth part to it.

I haven’t been in that situation as I usually try to tithe and give more than 10% and I never borrow against tithe. God owns 100% but only asks for 10% back. Just like God gives us 6 days and only asks for one for Him- the seventh day. Exodus 20:8-10, Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3

I have noticed the promise of the scriptures once I started tithing my income has increased significantly. I do not tithe for the blessings, but God does bless those who follow Him.

 

[Leaf473]

I haven’t been in that situation as I usually try to tithe and give more than 10% and I never borrow against tithe. God owns 100% but only asks for 10% back. Just like God gives us 6 days and only asks for one for Him- the seventh day. Exodus 20:8-10, Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3

I have noticed the promise of the scriptures once I started tithing my income has increased significantly. I do not tithe for the blessings, but God does bless those who follow Him.

Okay... but Leviticus 27:31 is a law that didn't end at the cross?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Okay... but Leviticus 27:31 is a law that didn't end at the cross?

It’s part of tithing.

I personally think you’re looking at this from all the wrong way, but thats another topic.

Take care Leaf.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Here let me help you with this one. Part 1/2

Proponents of the view that the 10 remain in force often cite Romans 3:31. And, at first glance, it does some to assert that the Law, which includes the 10, remains in force: Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law

Agreed, Romans 3:31 says; 31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Why not believe Gods' Word as it is and seek to explain it away because it does not agree with your teachings of lawlessness (without law or Gods' law is abolished)? To be at first glance and with the scripture context added in Romans 3:31 says exactly what it says and agrees with the context it is surrounding it.

Let have a look...

SCRIPTURE CONTEXT AROUND ROMANS 3:31.

• Romans 3:9-19 all of us have sinned against and stand guilty before God

• Romans 3:20 says that through the law we have a knowledge of sin

• Romans 3:21 is continuing on the same thought in context to Romans 3:9-20 and that is all of us have sinned according to the law so what do we do? He says "But now" all you sinners condemned by the law, the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. That is where the law leads us. According to the scriptures. God's law leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven or justified through faith *Galatians 3:22-25 because we have all sinned and broken the law (see context of Romans 3:9-19). All the law and the prophets pointed to Christ and this is where the law leads us.
  God's law shows us that we are all sinners and have sinned against God and none of us are righteous no not one (Romans 3:9-11).

• Romans 3:22 Gods law leads us to the righteousness of Christ which is through faith to all those who believe.

• Romans 3:23 because all of us have sinned

• Romans 3:24 We are justified and given God's forgiveness as a gift of Gods' grace through faith because we have sinned and we cannot save ourselves from our sins.

• Romans 3:25 God Grace and salvation is because of God sending His only begotten son to die and pay the penalty for our past sins so that we can receive Gods' forgiveness

• Romans 3:26 We receive Gods' forgiveness of sins through faith

• Romans 3:27 there is no boasting in faith as forgiveness is a gift of God to sinners who believe

• Romans 3:28 Therefore we receive Gods' forgiveness of sins as a gift of God through faith there is nothing we can do to earn it because we have all sinned.

• Romans 3:29-30 God forgives all sin from all men

• Romans 3:31 Paul asks the question to leave no doubt in case anything thinks that faith abolishes God's law when he says [31], Do we then abolish the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

...............

Note: This is all the scripture, context prior to Romans 3:31 shown by Paul in Romans 3:9-30. Paul continues to disagree with you in the scripture context right through to Romans 3:31 where he says that faith does not abolish God's law like you are teachings. Genuine faith establishes or obeys God's law. Paul is in disagreement with you here as shown in the scripture context your disregarding in your posts once more. "Do we then abolish the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31

Now who knows what the range of possible meanings for the greek word translated as "establish" in the NASB really are.

You might want to take that claim up with all the Greek bible translators that are in disagreement with you.

PARALLEL BIBLE TRANSLATIONS OF ROMANS 3:31

New International Version
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

English Standard Version
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Berean Study Bible
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.

Berean Literal Bible
Do we, then, nullify the Law through faith? Never may it be! Instead, we uphold Law.

King James Bible
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

New King James Version
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

New American Standard Bible
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

NASB 1995
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

NASB 1977
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Amplified Bible
Do we then nullify the Law by this faith [making the Law of no effect, overthrowing it]? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law [since it convicts us all of sin, pointing to the need for salvation].

Christian Standard Bible
Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

American Standard Version
Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Are we eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are establishing The Written Law.

Contemporary English Version
Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.

Good News Translation
Does this mean that by this faith we do away with the Law? No, not at all; instead, we uphold the Law.

International Standard Version
Do we, then, abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.

Literal Standard Version
Do we then make law useless through faith? Let it not be! Indeed, we establish law.

New American Bible
Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law.

NET Bible
Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law.

New Revised Standard Version
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

New Heart English Bible
Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not. No, we establish the law.

Weymouth New Testament
Do we then by means of this faith abolish the Law? No, indeed; we give the Law a firmer footing.

World English Bible
Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.

Young's Literal Translation
Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.

...............

Yep seems everyone else is in disagreement with you. Romans 3:31 says that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes or upholds Gods' law. Gods' Word dear friend does not teach lawlessness (without law or that Gods' law is abolished) like your teaching here.

May you receive Gods' correction and be blessed.