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Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

swordsman1

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James was the Pastor in Jerusalem. His writings minister in absentia, but I don't think anyone reading them would associate it with being ministered to by a Pastor.

So? James was both an apostle and also leader of the Jerusalem church.

God's gifts may be viewed as being laid up or given ahead of time. God is said to have given Jesus as our sacrifice slain before the foundation of the world in Rev 13:8.

That's not what most modern respected translations say...

"everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." (ESV)

"All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered." (NASB)

"every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (RSV)



Those are your observations. Most of the 11 original disciples did not write NT books and some non-Apostles (Luke, Mark, and Jude) did.

I said scripture writing ability. I've already been over this point with Truthseeker.

As I discussed earlier on the thread, Paul identified Timothy, Silas, and Apollos as being Apostles and there is no evidence that they saw Jesus in the flesh.

Timothy was never an apostle. Paul deliberately distinguishes himself from Timothy in this respect by writing "Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus and Timothy our brother" (cf. 2 Cor 1:1; Col. 1: 1; cf. 1 Cor 1: 1; Phm 1). Paul never regarded Timothy as his equal, he was always Paul's underling.

Silas could have seen the risen Lord in the flesh as he was a prominent in the Jerusalem church at the time. But the evidence for him being an apostle is extremely weak anyway.

The is no indication that Apollos was an apostle. He made doctrinal mistakes early in his ministry and had to be taught by Priscilla and Aquila.

Paul talks about the working of miracles in 1 Corinthians 12 and does not confine its operation to Apostles.

I never said healing was confined to apostles.

Apostles were able to perform miracles because that is one of the "marks of a true apostle"

2 Corinthians 12:12 "I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles."

See also Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2:43; 5:12; Heb. 2:4.

Why would I want to discuss present day Apostles with a Cessationist?

To prove that apostles (as per the NT definition) exist today. You quite clearly can't name a single one.
 
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swordsman1

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Seeing as you are a charismatic I think you may be interested in what the world's leading charismatic theologian has to say on the subject of apostles.

Systematic Theology - Wayne Grudem, professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary

1. Apostle. Earlier in this book we saw that the New Testament apostles had a unique kind of authority in the early church: authority to speak and write words which were “words of God” in an absolute sense. To disbelieve or disobey them was to disbelieve or disobey God. The apostles, therefore, had the authority to write words which became words of Scripture.1 This fact in itself should suggest to us that there was something unique about the office of apostle, and that we would not expect it to continue today, for no one today can add words to the Bible and have them be counted as God’s very words or as part of Scripture.

In addition, the New Testament information on the qualifications of an apostle and the identity of the apostles also leads us to conclude that the office was unique and limited to the first century, and that we are to expect no more apostles today.3 We shall see this as we ask the following questions: What were the requirements for being an apostle? Who were the apostles? How many apostles were there? And are there apostles today? At the outset it must be made clear that the answers to these questions depend on what one means by the word apostle. Today some people use the word apostle in a very broad sense, to refer to an effective church planter, or to a significant missionary pioneer (“William Carey was an apostle to India,” for example). If we use the word apostle in this broad sense, everyone would agree that there are still apostles today— for there are certainly effective missionaries and church planters today.

The New Testament itself has three verses in which the word apostle (Gk. ἀπόστολος, G693) is used in a broad sense, not to refer to any specific church office, but simply to mean “messenger.” In Philippians 2:25, Paul calls Epaphroditus “your messenger (ἀπόστολος) and minister to my need”; in 2 Corinthians 8:23, Paul refers to those who accompanied the offering that he was taking to Jerusalem as “messengers [ἀπόστολοι from ἀπόστολος (G693)] of the churches”; and in John 13:16, Jesus says, “Nor is he who is sent [ἀπόστολος] greater than he who sent him.”

But there is another sense for the word apostle. Much more frequently in the New Testament the word refers to a special office, “apostle of Jesus Christ.” In this narrow sense of the term, there are no more apostles today, and we are to expect no more. This is because of what the New Testament says about the qualifications for being an apostle and about who the apostles were.

 
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swordsman1

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a. Qualifications of an Apostle: The two qualifications for being an apostle were (1) having seen Jesus after his resurrection with one’s own eyes (thus, being an “eyewitness of the resurrection”), and (2) having been specifically commissioned by Christ as his apostle.4

The fact that an apostle had to have seen the risen Lord with his own eyes is indicated by Acts 1:22, where Peter said that person to replace Judas “must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” Moreover, it was “to the apostles whom he had chosen” that “he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days” (Acts 1:2–3; cf. 4:33).

Paul makes much of the fact that he did meet this qualification even though it was in an unusual way (Christ appeared to him in a vision on the road to Damascus and appointed him as an apostle: Acts 9:5–6; 26:15–18). When he is defending his apostleship he says, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor. 9:1). And when recounting the people to whom Christ appeared after his resurrection, Paul says, “Then he appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle” (1 Cor. 15:7–9).

These verses combine to indicate that unless someone had seen Jesus after the resurrection with his own eyes, he could not be an apostle.

The second qualification, specific appointment by Christ as an apostle, is also evident from several verses. First, though the term apostle is not common in the gospels, the twelve disciples are called “apostles” specifically in a context where Jesus is commissioning them, “sending them out” to preach in his name: And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these....These twelve Jesus sent out charging them, “...preach as you go, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”’ (Matt. 10:1–7)

Similarly, Jesus commissions his apostles in a special sense to be his “witnesses...to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8). And in choosing another apostle to replace Judas, the eleven apostles did not take the responsibility on themselves, but prayed and asked the ascended Christ to make the appointment:

“Lord, who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside....” And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:24–26)

Paul himself insists that Christ personally appointed him as an apostle. He tells how, on the Damascus Road, Jesus told him that he was appointing him as an apostle to the Gentiles: “I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and to bear witness...delivering you from the people and from the Gentiles—to whom I send you” (Acts 26:16–17). He later affirms that he was specifically appointed by Christ as an apostle (see Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:1; 1 Tim. 1:12; 2:7; 2 Tim. 1:11).
 
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swordsman1

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b. Who Were Apostles? The initial group of apostles numbered twelve—the eleven original disciples who remained after Judas died, plus Matthias, who replaced Judas: “And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles” (Acts 1:26). So important was this original group of twelve apostles, the “charter members” of the office of apostle, that we read that their names are inscribed on the foundations of the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem: “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Rev. 21:14).

We might at first think that such a group could never be expanded, that no one could be added to it. But then Paul clearly claims that he, also, is an apostle. And Acts 14:14 calls both Barnabas and Paul apostles: “when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it....” So with Paul and Barnabas there are fourteen “apostles of Jesus Christ.”

Then James the brother of Jesus (who was not one of the twelve original disciples) seems to be called an apostle in Galatians 1:19: Paul tells how, when he went to Jerusalem, “I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.”6 Then in Galatians 2:9 James is classified with Peter and John as “pillars” of the Jerusalem church. And in Acts 15:13–21, James, along with Peter, exercises a significant leadership function in the Jerusalem Council, a function which would be appropriate to the office of apostle. Furthermore, when Paul is listing the resurrection appearances of Jesus he once again readily classifies James with the apostles: Then he appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (1 Cor. 15:7–9)

Finally, the fact that James could write the New Testament epistle which bears his name would also be entirely consistent with his having the authority which belonged to the office of apostle, the authority to write words which were the words of God. All these considerations combine to indicate that James the Lord’s brother was also commissioned by Christ as an apostle. That would bring the number to fifteen “apostles of Jesus Christ” (the twelve plus Paul, Barnabas, and James).

Were there more than these fifteen? There may possibly have been a few more, though we know little if anything about them, and it is not certain that there were any more. Others, of course, had seen Jesus after his resurrection (“Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time,” 1 Cor. 15:6). From this large group it is possible that Christ appointed some others as apostles—but it is also very possible that he did not. The evidence is not sufficient to decide the issue.

Romans 16:7 says, “Greet Andronicus and Junias my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners; they are men of note among the apostles and they were in Christ before me.” Because there are several translation problems in the verse, no clear conclusions can be reached. “Men of note” may be also translated “men noted by” (the apostles). “Junias” (a man’s name) may also be translated “Junia” (a woman’s name).7 “Apostles” here may not mean the office “apostles of Jesus Christ,” but may simply mean “messengers” (the broader sense which the word takes in Phil. 2:25; 2 Cor. 8:23; John 13:16). The verse has too little clear information to allow us to draw a conclusion.

Others have been suggested as apostles. Silas (Silvanus) and sometimes Timothy are mentioned because of 1 Thessalonians 2:6: “though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.” Does Paul include Silas and Timothy here, since the letter begins, “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy” (1 Thess. 1:1)?

It is not likely that Paul is including Timothy in this statement, for two reasons.

(1) He says just four verses earlier, “we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know” (1 Thess. 2:2), but this refers to the beating and imprisonment which happened just to Paul and Silas, not to Timothy (Acts 16:19). So the “we” in verse 6 does not seem to include all of the people (Paul, Silvanus, Timothy) mentioned in the first verse. The letter in general is from Paul, Silas and Timothy, but Paul knows that the readers will naturally understand the appropriate members of the “we” statements when he does not mean to include all three of them in certain sections of the letter. He does not specify “—that is, Silas and I—had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know,” because the Thessalonians will know who the “we” are that he is talking about.

(2) This is also seen in 1 Thessalonians 3:1–2, where the “we” certainly cannot include Timothy:

Therefore when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left behind at Athens alone, and we sent Timothy our brother and God’s servant in the gospel of Christ, to establish you in your faith and to exhort you. (1 Thess. 3:1–2)

In this case, the “we” refers either to Paul and Silas, or else just to Paul alone (see Acts 17:14–15; 18:5). Apparently Silas and Timothy had come to Paul in Athens “as soon as possible” (Acts 17:15)—though Luke does not mention their arrival in Athens—and Paul had sent them back to Thessalonica again to help the church there. Then he himself went to Corinth, and they later joined him there (Acts 18:5).

It is most likely that “We were willing to be left behind at Athens alone” (1 Thess. 3:1), refers to Paul alone, both because he picks up the argument again in verse 5 with the singular “I” (“When I could bear it no longer, I sent that I might know your faith,” 1 Thess. 3:5), and because the point concerning extreme loneliness in Athens would not be made if Silas had stayed with him.8 In fact, in the previous paragraph, Paul means “I,” for he says, “We wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us” (1 Thess. 2:18). Apparently he is using “we” more frequently in this epistle as a courteous way of including Silas and Timothy, who had spent so much time in the Thessalonian church, in the letter to that church. But the Thessalonians would have had little doubt who was really in charge of this great mission to the Gentiles, and on whose apostolic authority the letter primarily (or exclusively) depended.

So it is just possible that Silas was himself an apostle, and that 1 Thessalonians 2:6 hints at that. He was a leading member of the Jerusalem church (Acts 15:22), and could well have seen Jesus after his resurrection, and then been appointed as an apostle. But we cannot be very certain.

The situation with Timothy is different, however. Just as he is excluded from the “we” of 1 Thessalonians 2:2 (and 3:1–2), so he seems to be excluded from the “we” of 1 Thessalonians 2:6. Moreover, as a native of Lystra (Acts 16:1–3) who had learned of Christ from his grandmother and mother (2 Tim. 1:5), it seems impossible that he would have been in Jerusalem before Pentecost and would there have seen the risen Lord and come to believe in him, and then suddenly have been appointed as an apostle. In addition, Paul’s pattern of address in his letters always jealously guards the title “apostle” for himself never allowing it to be applied to Timothy or others of his traveling companions (note 2 Cor. 1:1; Col. 1:1: “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...and Timothy our brother”; and then Phil. 1:1: “Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus”). So Timothy, as important a role as he had, should not rightly be considered one of the apostles.
 
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swordsman1

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This gives us a limited but somewhat imprecisely numbered group who had the office “apostles of Jesus Christ.” There seem to have been at least fifteen, and perhaps sixteen or even a few more who are not recorded in the New Testament.

Yet it seems quite certain that there were none appointed after Paul. When Paul lists the resurrection appearances of Christ, he emphasizes the unusual way in which Christ appeared to him, and connects that with the statement that this was the “last” appearance of all, and that he himself is indeed “the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle.”

He appeared to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle.” (1 Cor. 15:5–9)

c. Summary: The word apostle can be used in a broad or narrow sense. In a broad sense, it just means “messenger” or “pioneer missionary.” But in a narrow sense, the most common sense in the New Testament, it refers to a specific office, “apostle of Jesus Christ.” These apostles had unique authority to found and govern the early church, and they could speak and write words of God. Many of their written words became the New Testament Scriptures.

In order to qualify as an apostle, someone (1) had to have seen Christ with his own eyes after he rose from the dead, and (2) had to have been specifically appointed by Christ as an apostle. There was a limited number of apostles, perhaps fifteen or sixteen or a few more—the New Testament is not explicit on the number. The twelve original apostles (the eleven plus Matthias) were joined by Barnabas and Paul, very probably James, perhaps Silas, and maybe even Andronicus and Junias or a few unnamed others. It seems that no apostles were appointed after Paul, and certainly, since no one today can meet the qualification of having seen the risen Christ with his own eyes, there are no apostles today. In place of living apostles present in the church to teach and govern it, we have instead the writings of the apostles in the books of the New Testament. Those New Testament Scriptures fulfill for the church today the absolutely authoritative teaching and governing functions which were fulfilled by the apostles themselves during the early years of the church.

Though some may use the word apostle in English today to refer to very effective church planters or evangelists, it seems inappropriate and unhelpful to do so, for it simply confuses people who read the New Testament and see the high authority that is attributed to the office of “apostle” there. It is noteworthy that no major leader in the history of the church—not Athanasius or Augustine, not Luther or Calvin, not Wesley or Whitefield—has taken to himself the title of “apostle” or let himself be called an apostle. If any in modern times want to take the title “apostle” to themselves, they immediately raise the suspicion that they may be motivated by inappropriate pride and desires for self-exaltation, along with excessive ambition and a desire for much more authority in the church than any one person should rightfully have.
 
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swordsman1

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And here is his footnote on Eph 4:11-13....


Another objection to the idea that there are no apostles today, one that comes especially from people in the charismatic movement, is the argument that the “fivefold ministry” of Eph. 4:11 should continue today, and we should have (1) apostles, (2) prophets, (3) evangelists, (4) pastors, and (5) teachers, since Paul says that Christ “gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11 NASB). However, Eph. 4:11 talks about a one-time event in the past (note the aorist καὶ ἔδωκεν, from δίδωμι, G1443, “and he gave”), when Christ ascended into heaven (vv. 8–10) and then at Pentecost poured out initial giftings on the church, giving the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers (or pastors and teachers). Whether or not Christ would later give more people for each of these offices cannot be decided from this verse alone but must be decided based on other New Testament teachings on the nature of these offices and whether they were expected to continue. In fact, we see that there were many prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers established by Christ throughout all of the early churches, but there was only one more apostle given after this initial time (Paul, “last of all,” in unusual circumstances on the Damascus Road).
 
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John Mullally

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That's not what most modern respected translations say...

"everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." (ESV)

"All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered." (NASB)

"every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (RSV)
Most translations you state above excludes the KJV. That is not a problem as 2 Timothy 2:19 states that Christ Jesus was given before time began.

2 Timothy 2:19 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,​

Timothy was never an apostle. Paul deliberately distinguishes himself from Timothy in this respect by writing "Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus and Timothy our brother" (cf. 2 Cor 1:1; Col. 1: 1; cf. 1 Cor 1: 1; Phm 1). Paul never regarded Timothy as his equal, he was always Paul's underling.

Silas could have seen the risen Lord in the flesh as he was a prominent in the Jerusalem church at the time. But the evidence for him being an apostle is extremely weak anyway.
By combining 1 Thessalonians 1:1 with 1 Thessalonians 2:6 Paul identifies his traveling companions (Silas and Timothy) as also Apostles.

The is no indication that Apollos was an apostle. He made doctrinal mistakes early in his ministry and had to be taught by Priscilla and Aquila.
You can make an argument from 1 Corinthians 4:6-9 that he identifies Apollos as an Apostle.

To prove that apostles (as per the NT definition) exist today. You quite clearly can't name a single one.
If you are really interested you can do your own research.
 
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swordsman1

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Most translations you state above excludes the KJV. That is not a problem as 2 Timothy 2:19 states that Christ Jesus was given before time began.

2 Timothy 2:19 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

That is not a fair comparison. There is a very good reason for Paul using the past tense in this verse. He is explaining the doctrine of election which of course means we were predestined to be saved before the world began.

But in Eph 4 there is no good reason to use the past tense if Paul's intention is to say all those gifts will continue. Quite the opposite, the natural wording for such a meaning would be to use the ongoing present tense: "So Christ himself GIVES apostles, prophets, etc....to equip....until....". The only reason for Paul to use the past tense in v11 would either be due to a very bad grammatical mistake or because those gifts do not all continue.

By combining 1 Thessalonians 1:1 with 1 Thessalonians 2:6 Paul identifies his traveling companions (Silas and Timothy) as also Apostles.

Grudem explains why this reasoning is faulty in his exposition I posted earlier.

You can make an argument from 1 Corinthians 4:6-9 that he identifies Apollos as an Apostle.

Let's have a look....

1 Corinthians 4:6-9
Now these things, brothers and sisters, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos on your account, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become [a]arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 7 For who considers you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
8 You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think, God has exhibited us, the apostles, last of all as men condemned to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to mankind.

I presume you are trying to make a connection between "myself and Apollos" in v6 and "us, the apostles" in v 9?

When Paul said "us, the apostles," he wasn't referring to him and Apollos, he was referring to him and the Twelve. He wouldn't have used the definite article "THE apostles" if he was just referring to him and Apollos. Paul only uses "THE apostles" elsewhere in his epistles as a reference to the twelve. And the rest of the verse would only make sense it was the twelve who were a "spectacle to the world", with Apollo being relatively unknown in comparison.

If you are really interested you can do your own research.

I already have. The only claimed apostles today I could find are clearly bogus. They were either heretics such as the NAR wolves, or deluded self-aggrandizers such as the Nigerian showmen. And of course they all failed the NT qualifications for being an apostle.

I was hoping you could provide some more credible examples of apostles today. Clearly there aren't any.
 
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John Mullally

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And here is his footnote on Eph 4:11-13....


Another objection to the idea that there are no apostles today, one that comes especially from people in the charismatic movement, is the argument that the “fivefold ministry” of Eph. 4:11 should continue today, and we should have (1) apostles, (2) prophets, (3) evangelists, (4) pastors, and (5) teachers, since Paul says that Christ “gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11 NASB). However, Eph. 4:11 talks about a one-time event in the past (note the aorist καὶ ἔδωκεν, from δίδωμι, G1443, “and he gave”), when Christ ascended into heaven (vv. 8–10) and then at Pentecost poured out initial giftings on the church, giving the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers (or pastors and teachers). Whether or not Christ would later give more people for each of these offices cannot be decided from this verse alone but must be decided based on other New Testament teachings on the nature of these offices and whether they were expected to continue. In fact, we see that there were many prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers established by Christ throughout all of the early churches, but there was only one more apostle given after this initial time (Paul, “last of all,” in unusual circumstances on the Damascus Road).
Good point on Ephesians 4:8-10. It indicates that Christ gave gifts to men after descending and ascending into heaven. The past tense used for gave is based upon when the gift was given (at the ascension). The pEphesians 4:11 is picking up on that gave in verse 8 listing the gifts as being the Ministry Offices. As to whether the gave of Ministry Offices is for one generation, which you state, or ongoing is answered in Ephesians 4:13, which has the conditions for its ceasing not being met until the second coming. Additionally, Apostles and Prophets are linked to Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher in Ephesians 4:11 - so you can't cherry pick among them.
 
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Timothy was never an apostle. Paul deliberately distinguishes himself from Timothy in this respect by writing "Paul, an Apostle of Christ Jesus and Timothy our brother" (cf. 2 Cor 1:1; Col. 1: 1; cf. 1 Cor 1: 1; Phm 1). Paul never regarded Timothy as his equal, he was always Paul's underling.
You are correct. Timothy was mentored by Paul, and became a bishop of several churches in his region of ministry. Timothy respected Paul as his spiritual father. We know Timothy was a bishop because of the detailed instructions Paul gave Timothy on the appointment of elders in the churches. This means that Timothy had the authority to appoint elders. An apostle is an itinerate ministry. Timothy being a bishop over a cluster of churches was not, therefore he could not have been an apostle. I came to that conclusion by just reading the Bible with a modicum of common sense.

Silas could have seen the risen Lord in the flesh as he was a prominent in the Jerusalem church at the time. But the evidence for him being an apostle is extremely weak anyway.
Although Silas was Paul's partner in the ministry team, it doesn't mean that he was an apostle in his own right. If the popular modern definition of apostle as an itinerate missionary then he could have fitted the definition. But he was certainly not an Apostle with the same standing as Paul. And incidentally, we don't have any record of the same calling by the Holy Spirit as was with Paul and Barnabas. We don't see, "Separate unto Me Paul and Silas for the work I have for them." This is not to put Silas down as an effective missionary partner for Paul, but to afford him as someone with the same status as Paul would be a mistake.

The is no indication that Apollos was an apostle. He made doctrinal mistakes early in his ministry and had to be taught by Priscilla and Aquila.
I agree. Apollos was an evangelist primarily, and then he took over from Paul to lead the Corinthian church as a respected elder. We have no record of what he did after that. If he did have an itinerate ministry it wasn't to plant churches but to work with already established ones.
I never said healing was confined to apostles.
This is shown in the ministries of Stephen and Phillip. Also, according to James, the ministry of the healing gifts was the role of the church elders. "If any are sick among you let them call for the elders of the church", etc. The healing miracles that occurred through Peter and Paul were in direct connection with the preaching of the Gospel to the unconverted.

Apostles were able to perform miracles because that is one of the "marks of a true apostle"
2 Corinthians 12:12 "I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles."

See also Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2:43; 5:12; Heb. 2:4.
True. And it was in direct connection with preaching the Word of God to the unconverted. "Give us boldness to preach Your word and that signs and wonders be done in the name of Jesus Christ." This was not a ministry to the converted, as is done in modern "healing" crusades, mainly attended by the converted. It was to show that Jesus had truly risen from the dead and was alive, to the unconverted, to show them that they need to reject their gods and turn to Christ, which they did when miracles of healing occurred among them.

To prove that apostles (as per the NT definition) exist today. You quite clearly can't name a single one.
The ministry of apostle cannot exist while the Christian church is so divided into its many denominations. Some can call themselves an apostle and be recognised as such by, for example, a cluster of Charismatic churches, but in order to be a true apostle, they have to be recognised and be welcomed by Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, Quakers, Churches of Christ, Methodist, Mennonite, Amish, Eastern Orthodox, and every other existing denomination. In reality, those who give themselves the title of "apostle" are not recognised as such outside of their limited cluster of churches.

The only role that approaches what called be apostle is the missionary that goes into unchurched pagan countries and plants churches. But even then, they are funded by denominational churches and missionary societies, and so cannot really be recognised trans-denominationally as apostles.
 
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Good point on Ephesians 4:8-10. It does indicate that Christ gave the Ministry Gifts after descending and ascending into heaven. Ephesians 4:11 is picking up on that "gave" in verse 8. As to whether that "gave" is for one generation or ongoing is answered in Ephesians 4:13, where the conditions for its ceasing is stated. And Ephesians 4:13 has not occurred yet. This now resolves why "gave" was used instead of "give". Thanks for the pointer.
Everything that Paul wrote about the ministry of Apostle and Prophet in the New Testament church was totally correct - while the church was unified and being led by the Holy Spirit. And if the unified church, led by the Holy Spirit, continued through the centuries until today, the five fold ministries would still be active in the churches.

But the reality is that when the regional bishops took over authority, they replaced the Holy Spirit, and the prophetic gifts among the rank and file disappeared. This is because it was the bishops who called the shots and what they said was the authoritative word to the churches. When the Bishop of Rome became supreme, he assumed the prophetic function, which resulted in a series of doctrinal decrees which form the basis of Roman Catholic theology today.

Therefore, we can't apply what Paul wrote about the ministries and gifts of the Spirit to modern churches because they are not being led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is interested only in generally leading a totally unified Christian church. This is not to say that He doesn't lead individuals who are faithful to Christ and who make the effort to know what the will of the Lord is for themselves and the people they minister to. In the main, most denominational churches, including Pentecostal and Charismatic, are led by their leaders, using man designed programmes and services. Just because someone gets up and declares that they are being led by the Holy Spirit, doesn't mean that they actually are.

So, people can quote Paul about the ministries and gifts of the Spirit until the cows come home, but it won't mean a thing in church situations that are being led by men instead of the Holy Spirit. For Paul's words to become reality, we need a totally unified Christian church led exclusively by the Holy Spirit. But I won't be holding my breath about that!

So, there is no point quoting the verses in Ephesians to try and validate modern "apostles" and "prophets" without the same church structure that existed in Paul's time. So, we have to view those verses as for our education about what is possible in a true unified New Testament church.

The trouble with working towards Christian union is that always there is one dominant denomination that wants to call the shots. We don't have to guess what denomination that is. For that reason I don't believe that true Christian unity will be achievable this side of the Second Coming of Christ.
 
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swordsman1

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Good point on Ephesians 4:8-10. It indicates that Christ gave gifts to men after descending and ascending into heaven. The past tense used for gave is based upon when the gift was given (at the ascension). The pEphesians 4:11 is picking up on that gave in verse 8 listing the gifts as being the Ministry Offices. As to whether the gave of Ministry Offices is for one generation, which you state, or ongoing is answered in Ephesians 4:13, which has the conditions for its ceasing not being met until the second coming. Additionally, Apostles and Prophets are linked to Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher in Ephesians 4:11 - so you can't cherry pick among them.

The church certainly needs the ministry of all 5 of those gifts. We need the ministry of the apostles and prophets contained in the New Testament, as well as teachers, pastors, and evangelists.

That need doesn't end at the 2nd coming however, but rather when the believer becomes a mature Christian. v14-15 makes it clear that goal is attainable.

It is interesting that Paul uses the definite article to prefix each of those gifts. Paul always uses the term "THE apostles" to refer to the original band of 1st century apostles. Another reason for concluding that Paul was referring to the past apostles rather than new ones.
 
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So, there is no point quoting the verses in Ephesians to try and validate modern "apostles" and "prophets" without the same church structure that existed in Paul's time. So, we have to view those verses as for our education about what is possible in a true unified New Testament church.
I quote from Ephesians 4 because Gifts of the Spirit and Ministry Offices given by God to assist in maturing the saints are automatically being tossed out as irrelevant by entire denominations.
 
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That need doesn't end at the 2nd coming however, but rather when the believer becomes a mature Christian. v14-15 makes it clear that goal is attainable.
The need does not end when a believer becomes a mature Christian. It ends when all believers become mature Christians. And that will not happen until the second coming.

Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.​

It is interesting that Paul uses the definite article to prefix each of those gifts. Paul always uses the term "THE apostles" to refer to the original band of 1st century apostles. Another reason for concluding that Paul was referring to the past apostles rather than new ones.
When people talk about their sports team, they use terms like "the Dodgers". In any case the Ephesians 4:13 makes it clear that the ministries of The Apostles, The Prophets, The Evangelists, The Pastors, and The Teachers are not going away before the second coming or maybe Rapture.
 
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swordsman1

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The need does not end when a believer becomes a mature Christian. It ends when all believers become mature Christians. And that will not happen until the second coming.

Ephesians 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.​

When people talk about their sports team, they use terms like "the Dodgers". In any case the Ephesians 4:13 makes it clear that the ministries of The Apostles, The Prophets, The Evangelists, The Pastors, and The Teachers are not going away before the second coming or maybe Rapture.

If the need doesn't end until the 2nd coming, then you need to explain v14-15. If it means as you say then we are all still infants, being tossed by waves and deceived by crafty men.
 
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If the need doesn't end until the 2nd coming, then you need to explain v14-15. If it means as you say then we are all still infants, being tossed by waves and deceived by crafty men.
If just one person has not attained to the measure of the fullness of Christ, then Ephesians 4:13 is not fulfilled. I view verse 14 and 15 as expanding on verse 12 - which is they state why the Ministry Gifts were given.

You seem to have gotten logical terms mixed up when you infer this: If it means as you say then we are all still infants, being tossed by waves and deceived by crafty men.
 
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swordsman1

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If just one person has not attained to the measure of the fullness of Christ, then Ephesians 4:13 is not fulfilled. I view verse 14 and 15 as expanding on verse 12 - which is they state why the Ministry Gifts were given.

You seem to have gotten logical terms mixed up when you infer this: If it means as you say then we are all still infants, being tossed by waves and deceived by crafty men.

Verse 14 is describing what will happen after maturity has been reached:
"THEN we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming."

If that occurs at the 2nd coming then we are all still infants, tossed by the waves by crafty people.

There is no "all" in v14.

The "all" in v13 simply means that we all need to reach that goal.
 
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Verse 14 is describing what will happen after maturity has been reached:
"THEN we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming."

If that occurs at the 2nd coming then we are all still infants, tossed by the waves by crafty people.

There is no "all" in v14.

The "all" in v13 simply means that we all need to reach that goal.

Nice recognition of how vs 14 elaborates on the previous verses.

With this I can understand better what Paul meant in 2 Timothy 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

A perfect man is quite obviously not an infant.
 
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