Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

[lismore]

Most people, even continualists, would agree that the original 12 apostles and Paul are special, so no one can ever be "that kind" of apostle.

Hello! That is an interesting question. The writings and teachings of the Apostles and Prophets in the bible were considered to be authoritative, parts of scripture, the very word of God. For example:

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16)

The 66 books are considered inspired and authoritative. They haven't been added to for 1,900+ years. Few evangelical churches have added the 67th book.
God Bless

 

[swordsman1]

The use of the word "until" in v13 indicates an ongoing process at the time of its writing. Closer inspection reveals that the giving of Apostles and Prophets continues to be an ongoing process, as Ephesians 4:13 has not been fulfilled.

The ongoing process is that of equipping (present tense), not giving (past tense).

If that is the case, you should have no problem showing how Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled. Waiting....

"unity of the faith' does not mean worldwide agreement on every nuance of doctrine. It is the unity which binds together those who share the common faith in Christ. It is the same "one faith" that Paul refers to just a few verses earlier in v5. It is by faith that the believers are united to Christ, and in being united to him they realize their own unity one with another.

"knowledge of the Son of God" is easily obtained through Bible study.

"becoming a mature man" is again something that can be expected as we develop as Christians - Philippians 3:15 "All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things."

"the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" can be achieved as we are enriched and penetrated by him to become like Christ himself.

So yes millions of Christians throughout time have achieved this state thanks to the ministering of apostles and prophets (the original ones, not new ones), evangelists, pastors and teachers.


If v13 is something that can never be attained in this life then you need to explain v14-15 which says it can be attained.

 

[John Mullally]

The ongoing process is that of equipping (present tense), not giving (past tense).

The topic in Ephesians 4:11-16 is God giving Ministry Offices. It identifies the period that Ministry Offices are given and its details its benefits to the body of Christ. Your interpretation changes the subject in the middle of the passage and makes it read funny. It renders Ephesians 4:13 as meaningless. If Paul was trying to convey what you say, it would be far better if he left Ephesians 4:13 out.

If v13 is something that can never be attained in this life then you need to explain v14-15 which says it can be attained.

Verse 13 says "till we all come to the ...". It does not say "till some come to the ...".

 

[Vap841]

It could wreck you with pride if you are not mature in the Lord.

I don’t think I would have time for pride, I would be dominated by worrying about the authorities finding out who I am, because black vans would show up at my house and nobody would ever hear from me again. I would always have to be cautious about where I heal someone, can I run away with an open escape route (very very few people could be trusted to know that it’s me without eventually opening their mouths). And not getting caught is much harder in 2022 than in 1940.

 

[swordsman1]

The topic in Ephesians 4:11-16 is God giving Ministry Offices. It identifies the period that Ministry Offices are given and its details its benefits to the body of Christ. Your interpretation changes the subject in the middle of the passage and makes it read funny. It renders Ephesians 4:13 as meaningless. If Paul was trying to convey what you say, it would be far better if he left Ephesians 4:13 out.

Again, the giving of these gifts is in the past tense. Paul is referring to apostles, prophets, teachers, etc that had already been given to the church. And the apostles ministered to the churches mainly by writing letters, not by being present at each church in person. So although we need new pastors and teachers in person in our churches today, the original apostles continue to minister to us via their writings just as they did to the Ephesian church.

This passage says nothing about apostles continuing to this day. To decide whether any of those gifts ceased or continue to this day you need to look elsewhere.

Verse 13 says "till we all come to the ...". It does not say "till some come to the ...".

Not all Christians will achieve maturity at once. So of course the equipping continues to this day for those who have not yet achieved that goal.

But that doesn't answer my question. If you claim that nobody can can ever attain the goal of v13, then you need to explain v14-15 which says it can be attained.

 

[Guojing]

There are plenty of people who claim to be current-day Apostles. Feel free to start a new thread deriding them one-by-one. Realize, that that exercise will do nothing to discount what I have stated concerning Ephesians 4:11-13.

My simple point there is, if you really think they are as air-tight as you think they are, that means there will be other Christians who also share that same view.

In that case, why are we not even certain who are the apostles for today?

You cannot see the contradiction? If you had said, "I think its possible that apostles still exist today, and here are some I would consider as apostles", then it will be different.

But you claim its "air tight"?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

But all the apostles had the ability to write scripture if God spoke through them as He often did.

That's not entirely accurate. God can speak through someone and the message can still not necessarily become part of the canon. God spoke through lots of prophets and their messages were never canonized. One example of many: the four daughters of Philip the evangelist (Acts 21:8-9). Another example: the lost epistles of the Apostle Paul. Another example: all the Apostles whose messages were never canonized. Only Matthew, John, Peter and Paul wrote Scripture, everyone else didn't, and yet God certainly spoke through all of them (or are you going to say that God never spoke truths through the other apostles?)

The point is: writing canonical scripture is NOT part of the definition of being an apostle. Most of the apostles never wrote Scripture, and the writings of an Apostle do not automatically become canonical (see lost epistles of Paul). If God wants to produce Scripture and make it canonical, He can do it whenever He wants, however He wants and through whoever He wants, apostle or otherwise.

Because the others who were with Paul saw the same thing.

So what? It could still be a synchronized vision. And even if it was physical, so what? If Jesus did it once, He can perfectly do it again.

But has He? Those who claim to be apostles today need to prove they saw Christ in the flesh and were personally commission by him to be an apostle. And not just by them giving us their word. Otherwise any crank can claim to be an apostle.

If you understand Spanish, check out Yiye Ávila (Yiye Ávila - Wikipedia)

So you think Paul instructions to "teach and admonish one another" only applied to the Colossian church alone? And all other Christians have to get by without teaching?

If you let me borrow your own arguments, modern Christians have the Bible. No need for real people. No need for prophets, apostles, teachers, evangelists, pastors. With the Bible they have everything they need.

An evangelist is someone who seeks to convert others by preaching the gospel.

Apostles can do that too. Missionaries can do that too. The function is not exclusive to evangelists.

The Great Commission applies to the whole church, not just the disciples Jesus was addressing.

Likewise, the benefits of having the five-fold ministry in operation apply to the whole church, not just the Ephesian church Paul was addressing.

When constructing a building you only build a foundation once.

• This fallaciously assumes that the foundation is constrained in time. This needs not be the case. It can perfectly be an ongoing foundation.
• This also fallaciously assumes that prophets and apostles are ONLY for laying a foundation. Again, the word ONLY is not found in the passage. Prophets and apostles can perfectly be useful for other purposes too, such as missionary work, building up the church, etc. (see 1 Corinthians 12).

If there really were genuine apostles and prophets today.

So at least you are open to the possibility. Great!

 

[Guojing]

The use of the word "until" in v13 indicates an ongoing process at the time of its writing. Closer inspection reveals that the giving of Apostles and Prophets continues to be an ongoing process, as Ephesians 4:13 has not been fulfilled.
The fact that the purpose of the Ministry Offices is similar to Ephesians 4:13, underlies their importance.
If that is the case, you should have no problem showing how Ephesians 4:13 has been fulfilled. Waiting....

Its because, in your mind, you form an unquestionable doctrine that Ephesians 4:13, the perfect man can only come at the 2nd coming of Christ.

You refuse to consider the possibility that you might be incorrect.

So when swordsman1 raised a good point that the word "gave" is past tense, if you read that passage with a more open mind, you will think "If the Greek word there was translated as the past tense, and there is also a word until, could this perfect man have already been achieved"?

 

[John Mullally]

Again, the giving of these gifts is in the past tense. Paul is referring to apostles, prophets, teachers, etc that had already been given to the church. And the apostles ministered to the churches mainly by writing letters, not by being present at each church in person. So although we need new pastors and teachers in person in our churches today, the original apostles continue to minister to us via their writings just as they did to the Ephesian church.

In Ephesians 4:11-16, Paul identifies Ministry Offices, that they are needed to edify the body, and states that they remain until they are no longer needed (which is as long as some in the body of Christ remain that need to be perfected).

Your interpretation puts the Ministry Offices in the past tense and yet has them as necessary to edify the body multiple centuries later. No Pastoral counseling - that was conducted 1900 years ago. Come read about the last Evangelist in the book of Acts.

Ephesians 4:11-13 is all one sentence. You change its subject from Ministry Offices to its purpose (edifying of the body of Christ) mid-sentence so that the ending "until qualifying phrase" applies only to the purpose. Of course, God works to edify His body on earth until He comes again - that is mentioned numerous times in scripture.

Peter speaks about false prophets in 2 Peter 2. If Prophets ended after the last Apostle died or all the books were written, why didn't he include that heads up. Or why isn't that in the book or Revelations.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

The hard scientific evidence that Paul didn't need. (You said, "But Paul didn't need hard scientific evidence to believe in miracles either (the scientific method didn't even exist at that time), so why should I?")

This doesn't answer my question. There was no hard scientific evidence that the Apostle Paul rejected. You can only reject X if there is an X to reject. If there is no hard scientific evidence X to reject in the first place, how could I or the apostle Paul be rejecting something that doesn't exist? We are not rejecting anything.

If I'm rejecting hard scientific evidence, then please show a concrete example of hard scientific evidence I'm rejecting. Otherwise, I'm not rejecting anything.

As I just said, if you don't want to accept scientific proofs because such techniques were not around in Jesus's time then feel free to reject such evidence.

Again, show me a concrete example of a scientific proof I'm not accepting.

Anyways, I'm not rejecting the scientific method in the contexts it is valuable and useful. But belief in miracles is NOT one of those contexts. The Bible never teaches that you need to go through a process of scientific verification in order to believe that miracles can happen. In fact, it's the other way around: faith precedes miracles. You have to have faith FIRST and THEN miracles will come.

Matthew 13:58
58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

John 4:39
Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”

Matthew 14:31
31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”

John 20:26-29
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Matthew 17:14-21
14 And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, 15 said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he has seizures and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. 16 And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” 17 And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” 20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you."

Mark 16:14-18
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

1 Corinthians 13:2
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.​

No mention of the scientific method in any of these passages ...

Nowhere ...

At all ...

But I, the courts, and the vast majority of right thinking humans welcome scientific methods.

So basically you are saying that Jesus, the Apostles and pretty much the whole early church were dumb for believing in miracles without the scientific method?

Were Christians in Acts 4:29-31 dumb?

29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.​

Where is the prayer for the scientific method?

What other explanation is there for all Christian inherently knowing that the Bible is God's word? Something supernatural is obviously going on. Unless you want to attribute it to the Flying Spaghetti Monster then it must be the Holy Spirit.

Again, how do you know that all Christians inherently know that the Bible is God's word? You are essentially begging the question there. You are assuming the conclusion you want to prove as part of your premises. How do you know that Christians inherently know the Bible is God's word in the first place? It's much more likely that people simply believe in the Bible because of their parents telling them so, upbringing, culture, tradition, religious education, psychological bias, etc.

I could also quote 1 Cor 2:12-14

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.​

Miracles are works of the Holy Spirit too (see 1 Corinthians 12), so the same argument can be used to defend miracles. It's the Holy Spirit who has to give you the discernment to acknowledge the authenticity of a miracle, not the scientific method.

...but you don't believe the Bible is God's word do you? Despite the fact that you often quote scripture yourself as an authority to try and prove your point. And you accuse ME of hypocrisy?

I don't need to believe that the Bible is God's word in order to use it against your own worldview. That's how proofs by contradiction and reductio ad absurdum arguments work. You concede (some of) your opponent's premises in order to show how his position is inconsistent or self contradictory. For the sake of argument I can take advantage of the authority you attribute to the Bible to show how the Bible itself does not support your epistemology on miracles.

Moreover, unlike you, I do appreciate the value of testimonial and historial evidence. Therefore, I can appreciate the Bible as a valuable source of historical and testimonial evidence (along with the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, etc.) and assign credibility to it on that basis.


There is an easy way to prove me wrong though. Just show one example where the Bible teaches that we should be skeptical of miracles and only believe they are possible after a process of scientific verification. Waiting for the passage ...

 

[swordsman1]

That's not entirely accurate. God can speak through someone and the message can still not necessarily become part of the canon. God spoke through lots of prophets and their messages were never canonized. One example of many: the four daughters of Philip the evangelist (Acts 21:8-9). Another example: the lost epistles of the Apostle Paul. Another example: all the Apostles whose messages were never canonized. Only Matthew, John, Peter and Paul wrote Scripture, everyone else didn't, and yet God certainly spoke through all of them (or are you going to say that God never spoke truths through the other apostles?)

The point is: writing canonical scripture is NOT part of the definition of being an apostle. Most of the apostles never wrote Scripture, and the writings of an Apostle do not automatically become canonical (see lost epistles of Paul). If God wants to produce Scripture and make it canonical, He can do it whenever He wants, however He wants and through whoever He wants, apostle or otherwise.

If an apostle had a revelation from God and that message was written down for the benefit of others then that would qualify as scripture. It is God's word (by definition). Any writings of the apostles that did not make the canon were obviously not God's word, otherwise God would have preserved it, just as he did the rest of scripture -

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Mat 24:35)

“The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8)​

Any supposed "lost letters" must therefore have been Paul's personal words and not God's.

So what? It could still be a synchronized vision.

No, it happened exactly as Luke plainly described it...in real life. If it was an extraordinary happening such as multiple people all seeing the exact same internal vision at the same time, then Luke would have told us. He would not miss out an important detail such as that.

Also how can it be an internal vision if the light was so bright that it literally blinded Paul's eyes (Acts 22:11)

And even if it was physical, so what? If Jesus did it once, He can perfectly do it again.

But has He? Outside of any supposed hearsay stories, do we have any evidence for Christ appearing in the flesh in modern times, let alone Him commissioning someone to be an apostle?

If you understand Spanish, check out Yiye Ávila (Yiye Ávila - Wikipedia)

No I don't speak Spanish. I'm guessing it's some hearsay about someone claiming to meet Christ physically in the flesh?

If you let me borrow your own arguments, modern Christians have the Bible. No need for real people. No need for prophets, apostles, teachers, evangelists, pastors. With the Bible they have everything they need.

The Bible says the church needs gifted people. I believe it.

Now how about you answer my question - So you think Paul instructions to "teach and admonish one another" only applied to the Colossian church alone? And all other Christians have to get by without teaching?

If not can we conclude you have conceded to my biblical argument for teachers, evangelists, and pastors continuing.

Apostles can do that too.

Apostles could also heal people, perform miracles, prophesy, teach. So what if they had multiple gifts?

Missionaries can do that too.

I would call missionaries evangelists.

The function is not exclusive to evangelists.

An evangelist is by definition someone who has a particular gift for preaching the gospel to lost souls. So preaching applies to them. And preaching, according to scripture, continues.

Likewise, the benefits of having the five-fold ministry in operation apply to the whole church, not just the Ephesian church Paul was addressing.

I agree Eph 4:11-13 applies to the whole church. But that passage doesn't say the gifting of apostles continues today.

This fallaciously assumes that the foundation is constrained in time. This needs not be the case. It can perfectly be an ongoing foundation.

Do buildings consist of a continuous foundation that stretches from the ground to the roof? No, they are only laid at the beginning of the construction.

• This also fallaciously assumes that prophets and apostles are ONLY for laying a foundation. Again, the word ONLY is not found in the passage. Prophets and apostles can perfectly be useful for other purposes too, such as missionary work, building up the church, etc. (see 1 Corinthians 12).

It doesn't say the apostles and prophets were LAYING a foundation. It says they WERE the foundation of the church, along with Christ. If they were the foundation they can't also appear outside of the foundation.

 

[swordsman1]

In Ephesians 4:11-16, Paul identifies Ministry Offices, what they are needed for, and states that they remain until they are no longer needed (which is as long as some in the body of Christ remain that need to be perfected). If the office of the Apostle and Prophet are removed, they are not around to perfect the body - seems like that should be plainly stated without using wordplay.

But apostles are not removed. Their ministry is performed today via their writings, just as it was for the majority of churches the 1st century.

Ephesians 4:11-13 is all one sentence. You change its subject from Ministry Offices to its purpose (edifying of the body of Christ) mid-sentence so that the ending "until qualifying phrase" applies only to the purpose. Of course, God works to edify His body on earth until He comes again - that is mentioned numerous times in scripture.

The "until" applies to the present tense "equip" which is ongoing, not the past tense "gave".

 

[swordsman1]

This doesn't answer my question. There was no hard scientific evidence that the Apostle Paul rejected. You can only reject X if there is an X to reject. If there is no hard scientific evidence X to reject in the first place, how could I or the apostle Paul be rejecting something that doesn't exist? We are not rejecting anything.

If I'm rejecting hard scientific evidence, then please show a concrete example of hard scientific evidence I'm rejecting. Otherwise, I'm not rejecting anything.



Again, show me a concrete example of a scientific proof I'm not accepting.

Anyways, I'm not rejecting the scientific method in the contexts it is valuable and useful. But belief in miracles is NOT one of those contexts. The Bible never teaches that you need to go through a process of scientific verification in order to believe that miracles can happen. In fact, it's the other way around: faith precedes miracles. You have to have faith FIRST and THEN miracles will come.

Matthew 13:58
58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

John 4:39
Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”

Matthew 14:31
31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”

John 20:26-29
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Matthew 17:14-21
14 And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, 15 said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he has seizures and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. 16 And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” 17 And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” 20 He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you."

Mark 16:14-18
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

1 Corinthians 13:2
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.​

No mention of the scientific method in any of these passages ...

Nowhere ...

At all ...





So basically you are saying that Jesus, the Apostles and pretty much the whole early church were dumb for believing in miracles without the scientific method?

Were Christians in Acts 4:29-31 dumb?

29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.​

Where is the prayer for the scientific method?



Again, how do you know that all Christians inherently know that the Bible is God's word? You are essentially begging the question there. You are assuming the conclusion you want to prove as part of your premises. How do you know that Christians inherently know the Bible is God's word in the first place? It's much more likely that people simply believe in the Bible because of their parents telling them so, upbringing, culture, tradition, religious education, psychological bias, etc.



Miracles are works of the Holy Spirit too (see 1 Corinthians 12), so the same argument can be used to defend miracles. It's the Holy Spirit who has to give you the discernment to acknowledge the authenticity of a miracle, not the scientific method.



I don't need to believe that the Bible is God's word in order to use it against your own worldview. That's how proofs by contradiction and reductio ad absurdum arguments work. You concede (some of) your opponent's premises in order to show how his position is inconsistent or self contradictory. For the sake of argument I can take advantage of the authority you attribute to the Bible to show how the Bible itself does not support your epistemology on miracles.

Moreover, unlike you, I do appreciate the value of testimonial and historial evidence. Therefore, I can appreciate the Bible as a valuable source of historical and testimonial evidence (along with the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, etc.) and assign credibility to it on that basis.


There is an easy way to prove me wrong though. Just show one example where the Bible teaches that we should be skeptical of miracles and only believe they are possible after a process of scientific verification. Waiting for the passage ...

Your not still flogging that dead horse are you? Seeing as we are now in the middle of new separate discussion I will reply to this lot at a later stage.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1 Corinthians 12 is mainly about the Gifts of the Spirit - and there are nine listed. In 1 Corinthians 12:28, Paul talks about roles in the body of Christ. They are linked because the gifts of the Spirit complement the roles.

Ephesians 4:11-16, written at a different point in time to a different church, strictly discusses the offices in the church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers). Paul was not led by the Holy Spirit to repeat 1 Corinthians 12 here. My point, which is inline with a portion of the OP ask, is to show that the Bible teaches that among other things, the Bible teaches that Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers are still valid ministries.

By the time Paul got to Ephesus, the Corinthian letter would probably have already been circulated around the churches. The Ephesians would already have the information about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. The information that Paul has given to the Ephesians is building on what they already know.

What we need to remember is that Paul's letters to the churches are not synoptic, in the same sense that the synoptic Gospels are. Each church that Paul wrote to had a different culture and different issues. He wrote information that he felt that each church needed to know according to the particular issues they faced. This made each letter unique. But as each letter came into the public domain, as it were, different letters were bundled together and distributed around the different churches, culminating in the group of letters and Gospels that eventually formed the canon of the New Testament. There was a lot of religious literature flying around the churches in the 1st Century, and all this literature had to be prayed over and sorted into what was deemed truly inspired by the Holy Spirit as written or associated by a true Apostle of Christ. This is why we have a New Testament canon, and an apocrypha of other literature not approved to be part of the inspired canon of New Testament Scripture.

So, when we combine Paul's letters, we get a broad-based inspired document that forms the basis of sound Christian doctrinal teaching that we can rely on as the Word of God to us.

 

[John Mullally]

But apostles are not removed. Their ministry is performed today via their writings, just as it was for the majority of churches the 1st century.

Pastor and Apostle are both Ministry Offices being addressed. To be consistent you would have to count the writings from a first century Pastor as fulfilling the role of the Pastor today. On top of that you argue "But Pastors have not been removed".

The "until" applies to the present tense "equip" which is ongoing, not the past tense "gave".

The way you tell it, Ephesians 4:11-13 is contrasting the Ministry Offices with the "edification of the body". You have the ministry offices completely distributed before the time of the writing of Ephesians; whereas the "edification of the body of Christ" goes on until we all reach perfection.

Ministry Offices were given for the edification of the body of Christ, and continue until all in the body is perfected - they are complimentary. The "given" in Ephesians 4:11 and the "until" in Ephesians 4:13 are both in the same sentence and apply to the Ministry Offices subject as its role in perfecting the body is an ongoing process.

God gave Jesus to redeem His Church before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). Perhaps in the same way He gave Ministry Offices to the Church.

 

[John Mullally]

By the time Paul got to Ephesus, the Corinthian letter would probably have already been circulated around the churches. The Ephesians would already have the information about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. The information that Paul has given to the Ephesians is building on what they already know.

What we need to remember is that Paul's letters to the churches are not synoptic, in the same sense that the synoptic Gospels are. Each church that Paul wrote to had a different culture and different issues. He wrote information that he felt that each church needed to know according to the particular issues they faced. This made each letter unique. But as each letter came into the public domain, as it were, different letters were bundled together and distributed around the different churches, culminating in the group of letters and Gospels that eventually formed the canon of the New Testament. There was a lot of religious literature flying around the churches in the 1st Century, and all this literature had to be prayed over and sorted into what was deemed truly inspired by the Holy Spirit as written or associated by a true Apostle of Christ. This is why we have a New Testament canon, and an apocrypha of other literature not approved to be part of the inspired canon of New Testament Scripture.

So, when we combine Paul's letters, we get a broad-based inspired document that forms the basis of sound Christian doctrinal teaching that we can rely on as the Word of God to us.

I also view 1 Corinthian 12 & 13 and Ephesians 4 as complementary. I just chose to narrow my discussion to Ephesians 4.

I see you are Pentecostal from NZ. We have had Paul DeJong come to our church a few times - good memories.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I also view 1 Corinthian 12 & 13 and Ephesians 4 as complementary. I just chose to narrow my discussion to Ephesians 4.

I see you are Pentecostal from NZ. We have had Paul DeJong come to our church a few times - good memories.

That name jogs a memory. I was involved with Teen Challenge and Christian Centre in Palmerston North from 1970-79. If he was there during that time, I might have come across him.

 

[swordsman1]

Pastor and Apostle are both Ministry Offices being addressed. To be consistent you would have to count the writings from a first century Pastor as fulfilling the role of the Pastor today. On top of that you argue "But Pastors have not been removed".

Pastor is a local gift, shepherding a local group of Christians. New pastors would therefore be required as new communities are established over time. Apostle however is a universal gift, they minister to multiple churches. Paul is an apostle to me as much as he was an apostle to someone in 1st century Colossae. Neither had met Paul personally. He ministered to us both by his writings.

The way you tell it, Ephesians 4:11-13 is contrasting the Ministry Offices with the "edification of the body". You have the ministry offices completely distributed before the time of the writing of Ephesians; whereas the "edification of the body of Christ" goes on until we all reach perfection.

Ministry Offices were given for the edification of the body of Christ, and continue until all in the body is perfected - they are complimentary. The "given" in Ephesians 4:11 and the "until" in Ephesians 4:13 are both in the same sentence and apply to the Ministry Offices subject as its role in perfecting the body is an ongoing process.

God gave Jesus to redeem His Church before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). Perhaps in the same way He gave Ministry Offices to the Church.

There is no reason that apostles cannot minister in absentia by writing. They did so in the 1st Century and the same apostles do so now.

If new apostles were expected to appear over the course of history, Paul would not have used the past tense "gave", it would be present tense "gives". That would make far better grammatical sense.

And of course history proves it. Nowhere since the 1st century have there been any apostles that match the NT description of apostles: miracle-working, scripture-writing ability, eye-witness of Christ in the flesh, divinely appointed, authoritative spokesmen for Christ. If there had been you would have given us a few examples.

 

[John Mullally]

There is no reason that apostles cannot minister in absentia by writing. They did so in the 1st Century and the same apostles do so now.

James was the Pastor in Jerusalem. His writings minister in absentia, but I don't think anyone reading them would associate it with being ministered to by a Pastor.

If new apostles were expected to appear over the course of history, Paul would not have used the past tense "gave", it would be present tense "gives". That would make far better grammatical sense.

God's gifts may be viewed as being laid up or given ahead of time. God is said to have given Jesus as our sacrifice slain before the foundation of the world in Rev 13:8.

And of course history proves it. Nowhere since the 1st century have there been any apostles that match the NT description of apostles: miracle-working, scripture-writing ability, eye-witness of Christ in the flesh, divinely appointed, authoritative spokesmen for Christ.

Those are your observations. Most of the 11 original disciples did not write NT books and some non-Apostles (Luke, Mark, and Jude) did. As I discussed earlier on the thread, Paul identified Timothy, Silas, and Apollos as being Apostles and there is no evidence that they saw Jesus in the flesh. Paul talks about the working of miracles in 1 Corinthians 12 and does not confine its operation to Apostles. Paul said the Corinthians did not come behind in the gifts - which infers that all the gifts including Miracles operated there.

If there had been you would have given us a few examples.

I saw your response to ThruthSeek3r in Post 311. It went down exactly as I thought it would. Why would I want to discuss present day Apostles with a Cessationist?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

If an apostle had a revelation from God and that message was written down for the benefit of others then that would qualify as scripture.

If anyone (not just apostles) had a revelation from God and that message was written down for the benefit of others then that would qualify as scripture, provided that God guides providentially the process of canonization of that scripture. You need the canonization process as an additional condition. If God doesn't want that scripture to become canonical (e.g. a message that God only intended for a single individual, a few individuals or a local church alone, not the entire church), then the writings will not become canonized scripture, even if the message is from God.

So, again, even if an apostle writes down a message from God, the message does not automatically become canonical scripture unless God makes sure providentially that a process of canonization ensues.

Again, we don't have canonized scriptures from most of the apostles and prophets, even though their messages were most assuredly from God, because they were scoped to limited local audiences of their times. God didn't intend those messages (even though they were His) to be canonized. Otherwise they would have been.

This is the same reason why "closed canon" arguments against modern dreams, visions and messages from God are moot. God can certainly speak to someone today, and that person can even write down the message (and that would be, by definition, a true written message from God), and it would STILL not be canonical scripture, if God doesn't guide the process of canonization. If God doesn't intervene to initiate the process of canonization, then the message was not intended to become part of the universal canon, even though the message was divinely inspired.

It is God's word (by definition). Any writings of the apostles that did not make the canon were obviously not God's word, otherwise God would have preserved it, just as he did the rest of scripture

Again, false, as explained above. God can speak true messages with local scope. If He wants the messages to have universal scope and every single believer to read them, He would need to ensure that the writings are preserved and that a process of canonization of those writings takes place as an additional condition. Absence of canonization does not logically entail that God didn't speak. That's fallacious reasoning.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Mat 24:35)

“The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8)​

Any supposed "lost letters" must therefore have been Paul's personal words and not God's.

You are clearly taking those verses out of context. Mat 23:25 is evidently about the eschatological words Jesus spoke in the preceding verses. Isaiah 40:8 is clearly about the prophetic good news Isaiah spoke in preceding verses. These passages have nothing to do with canonization of scriptures.

Again, most of God's messages through prophets and apostles were never canonized. Where are the canonized messages of God through the four daughters of Philip? Where are the canonized messages of God through the prophet Agabus? Where are the canonized messages of God through all the other apostles? Where are the canonized messages that Paul heard in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12)?

Not every message from God is intended to be canonized.

But has He? Outside of any supposed hearsay stories, do we have any evidence for Christ appearing in the flesh in modern times, let alone Him commissioning someone to be an apostle?

No I don't speak Spanish. I'm guessing it's some hearsay about someone claiming to meet Christ physically in the flesh?

Here we go again with your trademark "hearsay".

I can say the same thing about Paul's testimony. You don't have any hard scientific evidence that Christ appeared physically to Paul other than the "hearsay" story found in scripture.

Are you skeptical of the testimony of Yiye Ávila? Well, learn Spanish, watch his testimony and then become an investigative journalist and go interview all the people who were healed and got saved in the hundreds of crusades he conducted over his more than 50 years of ministry.

The Bible says the church needs gifted people. I believe it.

Gifted people such as Apostles and Prophets

Now how about you answer my question - So you think Paul instructions to "teach and admonish one another" only applied to the Colossian church alone? And all other Christians have to get by without teaching?

Again, if you let me borrow your own argument, they have the Bible, they can learn everything they need by studying the scriptures. The Bible is their teacher. No need for real pastors, evangelists, teachers, apostles, prophets. With the Bible you have everything you need. Unless you are willing to admit that your argument is absurd

Apostles could also heal people, perform miracles, prophesy, teach. So what if they had multiple gifts?

Sure. And if God wants to do that again in modern times, there is nothing stopping Him.
Even concentric cessationists admit that God continues to do these things in the mission field (see different types of Cessationism here: Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia)

An evangelist is by definition someone who has a particular gift for preaching the gospel to lost souls. So preaching applies to them. And preaching, according to scripture, continues.

Just like the other gifts. All the gifts are useful for the body of Christ, not just preaching.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. (1 Corinthians 12:27-30)

I agree Eph 4:11-13 applies to the whole church. But that passage doesn't say the gifting of apostles continues today.

It doesn't say it would cease either, so at best this is an interpretative stalemate. And given the value the office has, it makes much more sense that it would continue.

Do buildings consist of a continuous foundation that stretches from the ground to the roof? No, they are only laid at the beginning of the construction.

You are attacking a strawman. I never said that the whole building is pure foundation. Of course in a building there are parts which are not the foundation. The foundation is just one part of the building. What I meant by "ongoing" is that the foundation may renew itself over time. Just like past pastors, evangelists and teachers pass away and are replaced by new ones (even if you have the legacy of their writings, such as the sermons of Charles Spurgeon: The Spurgeon Library), God can certainly raise new prophets and apostles to the extent He sees fit in each generation, even if we have writings from some of the past prophets and apostles who have passed away.

By the way, even Charles Spurgeon had personal experiences with the gifts of the Spirit, see https://www.groupbiblestudy.com/post/charles-spurgeon-s-word-of-knowledge-1

It doesn't say the apostles and prophets were LAYING a foundation. It says they WERE the foundation of the church, along with Christ. If they were the foundation they can't also appear outside of the foundation.

Fair enough, but again, this does not preclude an ongoing foundation, nor does it preclude them from being multi-functionally useful in addition to their foundational role.