• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,861
9,324
65
✟440,901.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
And you think eternal torture of most of his creatures glorifies God? 'You want a vision of the future, Winston? It's a boot stomping on a human head forever.' (Orwell)



How so?

Because you have been shown that ainios means both things. It means a certain period of time, mostly an unknown amount, AND it means forever or eternal. Which meaning it has is determined by context.

To say it never means eternal or forever is now gaslighting.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,861
9,324
65
✟440,901.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
I think you confuse Christian Universalists with Unitarian Universalists...or you forget that we are Christians. Your assertions have no basis.

I know there are a couple of different kinda of universalists.

And the assertions are based in facts. If UR teaches that all men will believe and that belief will come to men AFTER they die, there there is no need to repent on this earth. You can live however you want and do as much evil.as you want, reject Christ as you want and you will still be saved, because AFTER death you will believe.

I also know that UR people ARE Christians. It's a doctrine of Christians. BUT it's a false doctrine.

Which kind of universalist are you?
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Let try and exlplain this. Salvation is a gift of God and not of works so no one can boast. So we don't earn salvation. Believing is a conscious act of choice. I hear the gospel and choose either to reject it or accept it into my life.

Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone will open the door I will come in.

We have to open the door. Belief is a realization we need Christ in our lives to be saved. The man at the prison asked Paul what he had to do to be saved. Paul said believe and you will be saved.

Belief is recognizing our need for Christ, that he is the savior and we can't be with God without accepting him as our Lord and Savior. Jesus said if anyone denies me I will deny him. In Hebrews it tells us we can reject this great salvation.

Belief is our action to receive salvation's gift. God does all the rest. Open your hearts door to Christ's knocking and he will come in and Dave you. It's saying yes I need Jesus and I accept Him as my Lord and savior.

My wife's grandmother in her deathbed told my wife emphatically she did not want to hear about her Jesus. She utterly rejected him.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. - Mark 16:15-16
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 16:15-16 - American Standard Version

So belief in Christ is necessary for salvation. We believe and God does the saving.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:6-16 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:6-16 - American Standard Version

See how Jesus uses the word believe. Whosoever believes may have eternal life. That is our choice.

Jesus died on the cross so that whosoever believes in him has eternal life. By the way, a prime example on ainios meaning forever or eternal. So it's our will to believe when the spirit draws us to God. When we do God saves us through his son. Conversely if we refuse to believe God does not save us and we are not born again.

We don't will our salvation. We believe in Christ and He saves us. We can also choose to refuse to believe and trust in our own selves for salvation because we would rather try to save ourselves.

No arguments with that...except for:

Belief doesn't just occur in a vacuum, someone doesn't just say 'I believe' and the deal's done, that's ersatz stuff. Belief comes from faith/ trust/ confidence. Like 'Ah, that grizzled biker actually saved my kid when he ran on to the road, [I believe] he's ok after all.'

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel, the good news which conveys the word that is trustworthy and true, the meaning of Christ and him crucified. It prepares the soil and sows the seed.

So the message of a God who does what He says is a trustworthy message, something worthy of considering belief. It's good news, I can trust God not to be capricious or vindictive, to curse my children unto the 10th generation and roast me for eternity if I respond, 'What if I don't open the door and invite you in?'

Nobody comes to Christ except he is drawn.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Again, doing an extensive word study that includes religious commentary and literature it becomes clear that "correction" is not the principal aspect of kolasis when it refers to divine judgment. What's primarily in mind is the severity and that it is not motivated out of a streak of sadism.

So what is the motivation, to benefit the punisher or the punishee?

Once again you are assigning a position no one has taken. God does not torture, God is not the punisher. They get exactly what they desire, a world without God's presence and in that world there is nothing but evil and suffering.

Not sure they'd see it that way, 'the pursuit of happiness' and all that? All rational beings seek to avoid suffering, but without God are simply lost and deluded. It's grossly unfair to blame a poor blind naked foolish man with sinful tendencies and the sport of demons for his problems.

Nothing about that promise implies a universal extension, that is something you are reading into the promise. All the nations are blessed, but a nation is a corporate body. It does not say every individual from every nation will be blessed, though even there the application of God's perfect justice is in itself a blessing even if it is painful to the one on whom it is applied.

Isn't the rejoinder to 'all the nations', the 'every knee every tongue" promise? These scriptures make a perfect match of corporate and individual, do they not?
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
It's good news, I can trust God not to be capricious or vindictive, to curse my children unto the 10th generation and roast me for eternity if I respond,

Indeed and it's impossible to trust a god who is capricious and would do these things.

Anyone who buys into Team Hell's conception of God as Torturer is going to find themselves entering a cognitive dissonance that is very hard to get out of as many testimonies attest to. You can't on the one hand believe in a God of love and at the same time believe that God is the complete opposite and will torture anyone forever if they don't believe that He is a God of love.

The first commandment this becomes impossible. The only way to love a God like this is through immense fear. The very last sentence of Orwell's 1884 is "He loved Big Brother" but this only came about after Winston was tortured in Room 101 to the point where when his torturer held up four fingers but said it was five, Winston actually saw five. The breaking point for him was Room 101, which held everyone's greatest fear, which in his case was being eaten by rats. It was so terrifying that he wanted the torture to be applied to his one love, Julia, apart from him. You can only love BIg Brother out of fear but God doesn't want to be lived like this and His perfect love casts out fear.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Anyone who buys into Team Hell's conception of God as Torturer is going to find themselves entering a cognitive dissonance that is very hard to get out of as many testimonies attest to. You can't on the one hand believe in a God of love and at the same time believe that God is the complete opposite and will torture anyone forever if they don't believe that He is a God of love.

The most common attempt I see in Team Hell to resolve the dissonance is to blame the unbeliever. God of course can't be impugned, so it's a deserved failure on the part of man. And this is reinforced by the constant doubling-down of doctrine - original sin, penal substitution, eternal doom... shout out to Augustine and Justinian in particular.

Orwell's 1884

Is that the prequel?


Interesting possibility that Room 101 is (whether or not Orwell realised it) a reference to John 10:1:

Truly, truly I say to you, the one who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

Which is of course leads to one of Jesus 7 great 'I ams', namely:

I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. (Jn 10:9)

So 1984 is about tyrannical heresy of Christianity (like idealistic communism) or maybe a veiled blasphemy, or possibly an inspired vision of the harlot or beast. The worst fear of sinful man is the nightmarish fantasy of the punishment God will inflict on the other side ('the Party knows all', your deepest secret fears). Go Team Hell!
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When we say all must believe the dividing line between you and scripture is you think all will believe either before or after death.

I accept that, but I'm yet to be persuaded that scripture teaches that God's love expires when the unbeliever does.

And fear of death is not for the believer. Oh death where is they sting for to be absent from the body is to be with Christ. Death has no hold on those that believe. However the unbeliever should fear death for they die once and then are judged. Only the believer has no fear of death.

Yes and no. We have the assurance that Jesus conquered death and has a place for us. The unbeliever simply doesn't know. Socrates famously said before he drank the hemlock that there was no reason he should be afraid of the unknown.

The Christian path leads to martyrdom, perhaps by the St Ignatius route:
S136-ignatius-antioch-lions-legacy-icons__43304.1509628516.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Calling God a psychopath is lowering him to your level. God is not you. You are a lousy judge. God is the perfect judge. Don't make God like you.

Team Hell renders God a psychopath. See, what you did there is an example of gaslighting.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

<><
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
29,164
15,709
Washington
✟1,013,358.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I know there are a couple of different kinda of universalists.

And the assertions are based in facts. If UR teaches that all men will believe and that belief will come to men AFTER they die, there there is no need to repent on this earth. You can live however you want and do as much evil.as you want, reject Christ as you want and you will still be saved, because AFTER death you will believe.

I also know that UR people ARE Christians. It's a doctrine of Christians. BUT it's a false doctrine.

Which kind of universalist are you?

It's interesting to me how this argument seems so new to you, even though you've been at it for weeks now. It doesn't look like any headway whatsoever has been made.
 
Upvote 0

Servus

<><
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
29,164
15,709
Washington
✟1,013,358.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This subject has almost become silly to me. So much repetitive circular debate over something essentially simple and straightforward.

The only difference in damnation and UR is what God subjects those who rejected Christ to and for how long.

The argument of belief after death makes no sense whatsoever, as when one dies they meet their maker. No matter what God does with them, they'll obviously be fully aware that God exists and that he really is God.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This subject has almost become silly to me. So much repetitive circular debate over something essentially simple and straightforward.

Why not join me on the Biblical flat earth threads for a change?

The only difference in damnation and UR is what God subjects those who rejected Christ to and for how long.

Lol there might be only scale differences in the method, but what's at stake here is the character of God and the nature of the divine plan.

The argument of belief after death makes no sense whatsoever, as when one dies they meet their maker. No matter what God does with them, they'll obviously be fully aware that God exists and that he really is God.

Belief, being motivated by trust in God - there are many who'd expect the worst - The rat farm in Big Brother's Room 101 rather than the Sheep's Gate of John 10:1.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Servus

<><
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
29,164
15,709
Washington
✟1,013,358.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well that's a pity, because it happens to have solid scriptural and scientific basis imho. Don't think the devil lies about evolution and retires there.



It's an oft-discussed topic here:
Conspiracy Theories

You invited me to join you. So I'm asking which thread would that be. My main stance on the subject is that I don't care. Round or flat it's the earth our Lord created and I personally can't tell the difference one way or another.
 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You invited me to join you. So I'm asking which thread would that be. My main stance on the subject is that I don't care. Round or flat it's the earth our Lord created and I personally can't tell the difference one way or another.

Lol, 'standard model' modern cosmology primarily was a stumbling stone for me to come to God and the Bible for many years, so it's mostly something for unbelievers. But the threads here are full of Christians shouting the few FE'ers down.

Try this thread: Is the Earth Flat?

I'm off to bed now though, so welcome back, let's resume hostilities tomorrow. Grace and peace.
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
This subject has almost become silly to me. So much repetitive circular debate over something essentially simple and straightforward.

I agree, it's become very silly. As you say, Christian universalism is very simple. It's essentially the belief that, as Paul writes, “’As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” (Romans 14:11, cf. Phil 2:10, quoting Isaiah 45:23).

Universalists simply believe that this verse (and others that speak similarly) should be understood literally. All Christians believe that only through faith in Christ can we be saved. But it seems only Universalists take these verses into account and believe that eventually all will come to faith and be saved.

Universalism is the expectation, based on scriptural promises such as these, that God's victory will be made complete in the end of the ages, that all the world will eventually be conquered by Christ, and that, "When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

Universalists believe scripture affirms that Hell (which is a word used by Team Hell - they even named.themselves after it -.but which is not found in scripture The Bible uses various metaphors such as the "fires of gehenna" or "the outer darkness", or the "last judgement") is actually a process by which God purifies and redeems his people. This is because we understand the metaphorical fire as a 'refiner's fire', which doesn’t destroy the individual (who bears God’s image and whom God loves and died for), but rather serves to burn away the dross of sin to leave the pure gold of the perfected soul behind. This is a major theme throughout the Bible, verse after verse associates God's fire with purification and purgation for the purpose of redemption.

Otherwise, if Hell was an unending torture that with no end goal, or if a person was simply annihilated so they remained for ever lost to God and their loved ones, that would be a testament of God's failure to save them. If any human was subjected to eternal suffering we could not call that either just or good, and if any person was abandoned to oblivion we could not call that a victory over either sin or death. Both Annihilationism and ECT argue that at the end of everything God will ultimately have failed to save the majority of His creation from the enslavement of sin or the loss of death.

The Universalist belief that eventually everyone will repent and accept Christ does not negate Christ's salvific power, neither does it deny that all must repent and believe in Christ to be saved. It affirms that Christ is the only way to salvation, and that faith in Him is the only means by which we can be reconciled to God. Universalists do not deny any part of the Gospel of Christ. A constantly upheld strawman here is that faith in Christ is not required but that's to confuse Christian universalism with Utilitarian Universalism. This has been pointed out to the Team Hell salespersons umpteenth time but they still repeat the same old thing. We can only wonder why and shiver.

Christian universalists believe that the Good Shepherd will not rest until the last one of his sheep is safe in the fold, however long that takes, for "your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish." (Matthew 18:14) and He “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4)

We do not believe that God will suddenly switch off His love, turn away from His salvation, and change his nature from a loving Father into an unmerciful judge. We believe that if God saves sinners today then he will save sinners tomorrow, and if he saves sinners in this corrupted age then he can certainly save sinners in the new perfected age. Death, Sin, and the Grave are no barrier or obstacle to Him, for He has declared His victory over all.

Christ revealed God to us on the cross and in His parables as the one who would rather die Himself than allow one of His children to perish. God is the Good Shepherd who leaves 99 sheep in the fold to search the wilderness for a single lost one.

Universalists believe in the promise of Christ in John 6:39, "And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day."

Thus, universalists would say that these verses teach that however long it takes God will continue to be merciful towards us until everyone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, and through that faith be saved, whether that repentance and faith occurs in this age or the age after the resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Indeed and it's impossible to trust a god who is capricious and would do these things.

Anyone who buys into Team Hell's conception of God as Torturer is going to find themselves entering a cognitive dissonance that is very hard to get out of as many testimonies attest to. You can't on the one hand believe in a God of love and at the same time believe that God is the complete opposite and will torture anyone forever if they don't believe that He is a God of love.

The first commandment this becomes impossible. The only way to love a God like this is through immense fear. The very last sentence of Orwell's 1884 is "He loved Big Brother" but this only came about after Winston was tortured in Room 101 to the point where when his torturer held up four fingers but said it was five, Winston actually saw five. The breaking point for him was Room 101, which held everyone's greatest fear, which in his case was being eaten by rats. It was so terrifying that he wanted the torture to be applied to his one love, Julia, apart from him. You can only love BIg Brother out of fear but God doesn't want to be lived like this and His perfect love casts out fear.
It's simply called faith and everyone who has it seems to be content, including you : )
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,861
9,324
65
✟440,901.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
No arguments with
that...except for:

Belief doesn't just occur in a vacuum, someone doesn't just say 'I believe' and the deal's done, that's ersatz stuff. Belief comes from faith/ trust/ confidence. Like 'Ah, that grizzled biker actually saved my kid when he ran on to the road, [I believe] he's ok after all.'

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel, the good news which conveys the word that is trustworthy and true, the meaning of Christ and him crucified. It prepares the soil and sows the seed.

So the message of a God who does what He says is a trustworthy message, something worthy of considering belief. It's good news, I can trust God not to be capricious or vindictive, to curse my children unto the 10th generation and roast me for eternity if I respond, 'What if I don't open the door and invite you in?'

Nobody comes to Christ except he is drawn.

Most of what you say I have no problems with with the exception of:

It's good news, I can trust God not to be capricious or vindictive, to curse my children unto the 10th generation and roast me for eternity if I respond, 'What if I don't open the door and invite you in?'

What makes the gospel.giod news is that we have a way of peace, a way of joy a way to be one with God and Christ AND a way from judgement. For we are already condemned. We have a way out! That's good news. You don't have to drive over the cliff. That's good news.

Remember Jesus said IF anyone opens the door. He didn't say when everyone opens the door.

Please here me on this. I DONT KNOW exactly what happens in the lake of fire. I know from description it is not pleasant. It's not going to be good. It's going to be bad. It very well could be that part of the punishment is mental anguish over the failure to open the door. Think about the mental anguish we face now when we make a big mistake and it affects us severely and how we suffer with "if only I would have made a different choice.". I also wouldn't be surprised to see a variation of punishment based upon how we lived. Will Hitler and Stalin have it worse? Possibly.

But the clarity of scripture in the issue that not everyone will open the door is so rampant in scripture it's undeniable.

God is NOT capricious. You are, I am. God isn't. He would NEVER do anything like that. But if you refuse his gift and the sacrifice of Christ, you will incur his righteous judgement and get exactly what you asked for. It will be perfect and right. And no one will be standing before God in that day trying to tell him he's too harsh. How do we know that?

Because all will worship God and acknowledge Christ really is Lord even though they denied it on earth. They will see him for who he is and like Isaiah will see their sin and failure. They will see his holiness and recognize his judgements are true.
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
It's simply called faith and everyone who has it seems to be content, including you : )

I agree! I think though that many people are put off exploring Christianity and finding faith because they are told they have to do what in their view is simply impossible, I.e. belief in a God who is prepared to torture/torment someone forever. And other people come to faith but.suffer from a level of cognitive dissonance for the same reason. That's why I think this question of ECT is an important one.
 
Upvote 0