Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[rjs330]

And I'd say the claim is unconvincing, especially since it almost exclusively relies on secular literature. Surveys that look to religious contexts the corrective aspect disappears instead being primarily characterized by a lack of malice.




Context goes beyond a single chapter especially when the document is as short as the epistles. As for your mentioon of "all the nations" that has to be understood within the historic context as all that is saying is that salvation extended beyond the nation of Israel as a corporate body.

Not to mention that nations rarely is a reference to nations as in a land mass with national borders. It's usually a reference to people of all places.

 

[rjs330]

That's what it is, brainwashing with satanic doctrine. It's the theology of the flesh, self-willed salvation, as opposed to surrender in the spirit. ECT and the other one are really Adamic theology, pagan or Jewish theology at best, because they implicitly posit Adam's victory over Christ.

Interesting you would say that since UR fits really well with a convincing argument of an angel of light who would convince everyone that they don't have to believe. They can live and do whatever they want without consequence. Because someday they will believe. Blinding their eyes to the truth.

Therefore seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we faint not:but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. - 2 Corinthians 4:1-4 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 4:1-4 - American Standard Version

 

[rjs330]

Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:which indeed is less than all seeds; but when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the heaven come and lodge in the branches thereof.Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till it was all leavened.All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.The kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in the field; which a man found, and hid; and in his joy he goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a merchant seeking goodly pearls:and having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away.So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:31-50 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:31-50 - American Standard Version

UR convinces people they do not have to worry.

 

[rjs330]

Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:which indeed is less than all seeds; but when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the heaven come and lodge in the branches thereof.Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till it was all leavened.All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.The kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in the field; which a man found, and hid; and in his joy he goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a merchant seeking goodly pearls:and having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away.So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:31-50 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:31-50 - American Standard Version

UR convinces people that they have no fear of wickedness. That iniquity matters not. And that there is no need to see salvation as a pearl of great price.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all will come to repentance.

knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts,and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.For this they wilfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God;by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness,looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3:3-12 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3:3-12 - American Standard Version

There is no need for God to be patient or to be calling all men to repentance or be concerned over the destruction of ungodly wicked men if everyone gets saved anyway.

 

[Hmm]

The only quibble I have is with 'throughout many ages'. I'd have thought it could only mean many ages if it was the 'aions of the aions'-type formulation that generally is translated 'forever and ever'.

Perhaps the phrase "many ages" is just used for dramatic effect, to suggest a very long time. If an "age" is a time limited period that is of a (possibly) long but unspecified duration, then "many ages" means exactly the same thing. It's like telling someone you've just been on many long journeys, one after the other. It doesn't tell them anything more than if you'd just said you've been on one long journey.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And I'd say the claim is unconvincing, especially since it almost exclusively relies on secular literature. Surveys that look to religious contexts the corrective aspect disappears instead being primarily characterized by a lack of malice.

So what about Acts 4:21, where the Sandhedrin Jews want to punish John and Peter to correct them?

Strongs appears to support a corrective punishment interpretation: Strong's Greek: 2849. κολάζω (kolazó) -- to chastise

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.

2. to check, curb, restrain.

3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished (3Macc. 7:3): Acts 4:21.

The Greek word for retributive punishment is timoria, as you're aware.

So the Bible, lexicon and secular usage, along with the availability of a harsher alternative, make a solid case against an ECT reading.

Surveys that look to religious contexts the corrective aspect disappears instead being primarily characterized by a lack of malice.

So are you suggesting God tortures the many exquisitely forever without malice? Perhaps He takes a casual attitude, breaking to do the dishes every now and then.

Context goes beyond a single chapter especially when the document is as short as the epistles. As for your mentioon of "all the nations" that has to be understood within the historic context as all that is saying is that salvation extended beyond the nation of Israel as a corporate body.

I'm not sure how much more context one needs than the great foundational divine covenant promises, a la 'all the nations will be blessed'.

'All the nations will be saved' to my mind doesn't mean 'Most of the nations will be condemned', but each to his own. For example:

“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.” (Rev 15:4, citing Psalm 86:9)

See what I mean? It's a bit stronger and more emphatic than 'All the nations will have the opportunity to be saved.' There's lots of those kinds of assurances throughout scripture.

Should we be reading them down and always making them conditional on individual will? Tell me, which will win out, the little fishies darting around in the net, or the winch that drags them in?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Thats not what the Bible says.

Ah, this is a major point of difference between us then. Correct me if I've misunderstood, but you believe scripture teaches that we can become born again of our own will? Can a blind man will himself to see, or a dead man will himself alive?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I understand that's what you believe. But that is not what the bible says. Neither Christ nor the apostles say you can believe for salvation after death. It has to be done before.

I'm glad that you now acknowledge UR teaches that all will believe. I hope you can restrain your enthusiasm for saying that it does not.

Christ has conquered death. Which means death is no obstacle, and nothing to fear. We will all be resurrected. If the scriptures teach that the moment of physical death is the cutoff point, does this not reintroduce fear of death?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Wait you don't believe we are born sinners either. So we can live sinless life if we just make the right choices?

I thought that's what you believe - that we believe in Christ then will ourselves to be born again and saved? Until we know God, we have very little if any idea of how sinful and in need we are. Ask most unbelievers, they'll say they consider themselves basically good people. They have no idea that they're dead, lost, hopeless and generally evil.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

UR convinces people that they have no fear of wickedness. That iniquity matters not. And that there is no need to see salvation as a pearl of great price.

Disagree, it's painting a picture of God as a vicious psychopath that causes untold misery, both within and outside the Church.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Another perfect verse to describe the word ainois. It's meaning is determined by context. Present evil world is temporary. But God's glory is everlasting and has no end.

And you think eternal torture of most of his creatures glorifies God? 'You want a vision of the future, Winston? It's a boot stomping on a human head forever.' (Orwell)

o say ainois does not ever mean forever or eternal is gas lighting now on the highest order.

How so?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Interesting you would say that since UR fits really well with a convincing argument of an angel of light who would convince everyone that they don't have to believe. They can live and do whatever they want without consequence. Because someday they will believe. Blinding their eyes to the truth.

No, UR does not (or should not) soft pedal on the dangers of rejecting God, chiefly the risk of perishing, but also the possible torment of being turned around in the judgment, the regret of a wasted life, the guilt of all the sins committed etc etc..

If the righteous receive their due on earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner! (Pro 11:31), restated by Peter as: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (1 Pet 4:18)

But the main motivation is love, not terror. We obey God primarily for His glory, not for our own survival and to avoid being roasted. Love of God (and fear of God ie hatred of evil) can only result from an act of Grace. I just try to remove stumbling stones and sow the seed of the Gospel as 'Glad tidings of great joy for all mankind', which I believe does not require intimidation tactics. Even though force of law is all the heathen understand, I leave the miracles to God.

 

[Lazarus Short]

UR convinces people that they have no fear of wickedness. That iniquity matters not. And that there is no need to see salvation as a pearl of great price.

There is no need for God to be patient or to be calling all men to repentance or be concerned over the destruction of ungodly wicked men if everyone gets saved anyway.

I think you confuse Christian Universalists with Unitarian Universalists...or you forget that we are Christians. Your assertions have no basis.

 

[rjs330]

Ah, this is a major point of difference between us then. Correct me if I've misunderstood, but you believe scripture teaches that we can become born again of our own will? Can a blind man will himself to see, or a dead man will himself alive?

Let try and exlplain this. Salvation is a gift of God and not of works so no one can boast. So we don't earn salvation. Believing is a conscious act of choice. I hear the gospel and choose either to reject it or accept it into my life.

Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone will open the door I will come in.

We have to open the door. Belief is a realization we need Christ in our lives to be saved. The man at the prison asked Paul what he had to do to be saved. Paul said believe and you will be saved.

Belief is recognizing our need for Christ, that he is the savior and we can't be with God without accepting him as our Lord and Savior. Jesus said if anyone denies me I will deny him. In Hebrews it tells us we can reject this great salvation.

Belief is our action to receive salvation's gift. God does all the rest. Open your hearts door to Christ's knocking and he will come in and Dave you. It's saying yes I need Jesus and I accept Him as my Lord and savior.

My wife's grandmother in her deathbed told my wife emphatically she did not want to hear about her Jesus. She utterly rejected him.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. - Mark 16:15-16
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 16:15-16 - American Standard Version

So belief in Christ is necessary for salvation. We believe and God does the saving.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:6-16 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:6-16 - American Standard Version

See how Jesus uses the word believe. Whosoever believes may have eternal life. That is our choice.

Jesus died on the cross so that whosoever believes in him has eternal life. By the way, a prime example on ainios meaning forever or eternal. So it's our will to believe when the spirit draws us to God. When we do God saves us through his son. Conversely if we refuse to believe God does not save us and we are not born again.

We don't will our salvation. We believe in Christ and He saves us. We can also choose to refuse to believe and trust in our own selves for salvation because we would rather try to save ourselves.

 

[Fervent]

So what about Acts 4:21, where the Sandhedrin Jews want to punish John and Peter to correct them?

Strongs appears to support a corrective punishment interpretation: Strong's Greek: 2849. κολάζω (kolazó) -- to chastise

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.

2. to check, curb, restrain.

3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished (3Macc. 7:3): Acts 4:21.

The Greek word for retributive punishment is timoria, as you're aware.

So the Bible, lexicon and secular usage, along with the availability of a harsher alternative, make a solid case against an ECT reading.

Again, doing an extensive word study that includes religious commentary and literature it becomes clear that "correction" is not the principal aspect of kolasis when it refers to divine judgment. What's primarily in mind is the severity and that it is not motivated out of a streak of sadism.

So are you suggesting God tortures the many exquisitely forever without malice? Perhaps He takes a casual attitude, breaking to do the dishes every now and then.

Once again you are assigning a position no one has taken. God does not torture, God is not the punisher. They get exactly what they desire, a world without God's presence and in that world there is nothing but evil and suffering.

I'm not sure how much more context one needs than the great foundational divine covenant promises, a la 'all the nations will be blessed'.

'All the nations will be saved' to my mind doesn't mean 'Most of the nations will be condemned', but each to his own. For example:

“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.” (Rev 15:4, citing Psalm 86:9)

See what I mean? It's a bit stronger and more emphatic than 'All the nations will have the opportunity to be saved.' There's lots of those kinds of assurances throughout scripture.

Should we be reading them down and always making them conditional on individual will? Tell me, which will win out, the little fishies darting around in the net, or the winch that drags them in?

Nothing about that promise implies a universal extension, that is something you are reading into the promise. All the nations are blessed, but a nation is a corporate body. It does not say every individual from every nation will be blessed, though even there the application of God's perfect justice is in itself a blessing even if it is painful to the one on whom it is applied.

 

[rjs330]

See what I mean? It's a bit stronger and more emphatic than 'All the nations will have the opportunity to be saved.' There's lots of those kinds of assurances throughout scripture.

That verse does not say all nations will have the opportunity. Where does it say that?

 

[rjs330]

I'm glad that you now acknowledge UR teaches that all will believe. I hope you can restrain your enthusiasm for saying that it does not.

Christ has conquered death. Which means death is no obstacle, and nothing to fear. We will all be resurrected. If the scriptures teach that the moment of physical death is the cutoff point, does this not reintroduce fear of death?

From the beginning of the conversation I knew that UR says all will believe.

The difference is the bible teaches that belief is necessary BEFORE we die and not all will believe. Belief before death is required. When we say all must believe the dividing line between you and scripture is you think all will believe either before or after death.

Scripture teaches that this life is your only chance to believe. After that it is too late. And most people will not believe.

And fear of death is not for the believer. Oh death where is they sting for to be absent from the body is to be with Christ. Death has no hold on those that believe. However the unbeliever should fear death for they die once and then are judged. Only the believer has no fear of death.

 

[rjs330]

I thought that's what you believe - that we believe in Christ then will ourselves to be born again and saved? Until we know God, we have very little if any idea of how sinful and in need we are. Ask most unbelievers, they'll say they consider themselves basically good people. They have no idea that they're dead, lost, hopeless and generally evil.

Where did you get that idea?

We agree that men are dead, hopeless and evil. That's why most will not choose to believe for they love darkness more than light cause their deeds are evil.

 

[rjs330]

Disagree, it's painting a picture of God as a vicious psychopath that causes untold misery, both within and outside the Church.

If you can live wickedly without faith in Christ and still be saved then there is no fear of the wicked and no need for the wicked to repent and believe in this life. It's all good, live however you want l, do whatever evil you want it matters not.

Yet Jesus said we should fear God who can destroy both the body and soul in hell.

Calling God a psychopath is lowering him to your level. God is not you. You are a lousy judge. God is the perfect judge. Don't make God like you.

 

[rjs330]

But the main motivation is love, not terror. We obey God primarily for His glory, not for our own survival and to avoid being roasted. Love of God (and fear of God ie hatred of evil) can only result from an act of Grace. I just try to remove stumbling stones and sow the seed of the Gospel as 'Glad tidings of great joy for all mankind', which I believe does not require intimidation tactics. Even though force of law is all the heathen understand, I leave the miracles to God

Not really. Jesus spoke a lot about hell and punishment. Loving God isn't the main thing that brings us to salvation. It's recognizing who Jesus is as out savior and our need for repentance.

The first converts in Acts are a picture of this.

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38 Bible Gateway passage: Acts 2:38 - American Standard Version

The rest.
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. - Acts 2:38-41 Bible Gateway passage: Acts 2:38-41 - American Standard Version

And as he held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon’s, greatly wondering.And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.And by faith in his name hath his name made this man strong, whom ye behold and know: yea, the faith which is through him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.And now, brethren, I know that in ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, even Jesus:whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of his holy prophets that have been from of old.Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me; to him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.Ye are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.Unto you first God, having raised up his Servant, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities. - Acts 3:11-26 Bible Gateway passage: Acts 3:11-26 - American Standard Version

The jailor didn't love God or didn't believe because love for God.

And the jailor, being roused out of sleep and seeing the prison doors open, drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped.But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.And he called for lights and sprang in, and, trembling for fear, fell down before Paul and Silas,and brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.And they spake the word of the Lord unto him, with all that were in his house.And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately.And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God. - Acts 16:27-34 Bible Gateway passage: Acts 16:27-34 - American Standard Version

It's all through Acts. People who didn't know God or live God were convinced that Christ died for them and they believed then. There were some her were devout to God for sure. Like Lydia. But most didn't really love him. They saw God's love for us and believed repenting which the apostles taught.