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Evolution happens

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Fossils are evidence of evolution, but they don’t tell us anything about what biological process was responsible for evolution; they don't confirm the theory that the fossil record is the result of a process of natural selection acting on mutations.

So my question remains: How do you test the theory that a human evolved from a fish via a process of mutations and natural selection?
We test the predictions of the ToE. IOW, if the ToE is correct, we should see a tree-like pattern of relationships between existing organisms, and we should see a progressive sequence of snapshots of the development of this tree in the fossil record, and so on for each of the predictions we can make based on the ToE. Assuming a fairly constant mutation rate (averaged over evolutionary timescales), the differences and similarities in DNA between humans and fish match the tree-like ToE relationship and the estimated time back to the common ancestor pretty well.

One of the best tools for verifying the relationships between organisms is their DNA. Not only can we see that we share the majority of our DNA with fish, but we can see the relationship predicted by the ToE reflected in the DNA similarities and differences. One key indicator is called an endogenous retrovirus (ERV). This is a chunk of DNA inserted into the host organism's DNA when a retrovirus infects it. The insertion point of an ERV in the host DNA is random. Occasionally these pieces of viral DNA are inserted into the DNA of germ cells, so they are inherited by the offspring and effectively become part of the DNA of that species.

Now that we can sequence DNA, we can spot these ERVs, and compare them with the ERVs in other creatures. For example, if we compare our ERVs with those in chimp DNA, we find about 200 matching ERVs in exactly the same places in their DNA as in ours. We also find a few ERVs in us and them that don't match. The only way we can share those matching ERVs in identical positions is if we both inherited them from the same ancestor. The ERVs that don't match are more recent ones that were inserted after our two lineages branched off from that ancestor. We can roughly estimate the rate at which ERVs get inserted into our DNA, and that too is a good match for what we'd expect if humans and chimps had a common ancestor.

We can repeat the ERV matching process with creatures that are less similar to us than chimps, and the matches we find there confirm that we share more distant ancestors with them. Combining the shared DNA similarities, the matching ERVs, the fossil record that matches the same timescales, and the other indications of shared ancestry (some of which I mentioned in an earlier post), common ancestry of mammals (including humans) and fish is beyond reasonable doubt.

My understanding is, the fossil record doesn’t provide any evidence that the many different phyla that appeared during the Cambrian explosion are related. Their respective phylogenic trees are not connected by any phylogenic branches.
As I understand it, there have been a number of discoveries that suggest that the creatures found in the 'Cambrian explosion' can be connected to Precambrian creatures, but that very few persisted after the Cambrian. It appears that rather than a single rapid diversification, there may have been a number of 'mini-explosions' occurring over a relatively short geological timescale. But fossil evidence of that period is scarce because it seems to be the time when armoured body parts first evolved, so there are bound to be fewer fossils of the preceding soft-bodied period.

I agree that that’s the best scientific explanation for the apparent diversity within respective phyla. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s the truth.
'Truth' is a slippery customer. Science aims to find the best way to describe and explain our observations as models that can explain what we've observed in the past and predict what we're likely to observe in future. 'Truth', in that respect, is an ideal that impartial observers will eventually converge on, but we can never be sure we have it. We can only confirm that we have a better model of the world than any previous model.

I used to think embryology (viz-a-viz evolution) was quackery (eg, Dobzhansky claimed that human embryos had “gills”, but they turned out to be nothing more than folds of skin - woops!) … until I saw the embryo of a snake – it had four little buds placed such that they obviously suggested four limbs. However that was evidence of devolution of morphology, not an evolution.
'Devolution' isn't really a useful concept. Evolution is just change over time - in biology it's genetic change over time. There are plenty of examples of creatures that have evolved to become less complex or less capable over time because they no longer need the extra complexity, they can be more efficient and successful without it - a well-known example is creatures that lose their eyesight when they breed in dark environments (e.g. caves).

What happens is that when eyes (or whatever) are no longer an advantage, creatures with mutations that interfere with sight can survive just as well, so the number of partially sightless and sightless creatures will increase in the population. If having sight has a cost (e.g. maintaining a redundant energy-hungry piece of the brain), then there will be a positive disadvantage to having sight when it's useless.

None of this answers my question:
How do you test the theory that a human evolved from a fish via a process of mutations and natural selection?
See above and previous answers.

If you still don't understand it, please ask a specific question about the part you're having trouble with.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I love the secular theory that our sun and all other stars, although they are virtually nuclear-fusion reactors, were not a result of intelligent design, but arose out of the chaos of an explosion (Big Bang). Scientists have been trying for decades to built a viable fusion reactor without success, yet mindless nature somehow managed to build billions of them!
This is one of the problems fusion scientists have to overcome. Nature can assemble 2x10³⁰ kg or more of hydrogen in a volume of around 864,000 miles across, and that much hydrogen will start fusion all by itself. Scientists have to make fusion work in a space that's just a few metres across... So it's apples and oranges... tiny little apples and cosmically vast oranges ;)
 
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sjastro

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This is one of the problems fusion scientists have to overcome. Nature can assemble 2x10³⁰ kg or more of hydrogen in a volume of around 864,000 miles across, and that much hydrogen will start fusion all by itself. Scientists have to make fusion work in a space that's just a few metres across... So it's apples and oranges...
Scientists also don't have the option of converting gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy to overcome the Coulombic barrier for fusion nor attaining hydrostatic equilibrium which gravity provides in stars.
 
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SelfSim

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Buzzard3 said:
I love the secular theory that our sun and all other stars, although they are virtually nuclear-fusion reactors, were not a result of intelligent design, but arose out of the chaos of an explosion (Big Bang). Scientists have been trying for decades to built a viable fusion reactor without success, yet mindless nature somehow managed to build billions of them!
Stars are regularly observed at various stages of formation, with no evidence of some mysterious 'intelligence' involved in that formation.

The 'Big Bang' is not a description of some 'explosion'.

You're basically wrong .. on both counts.
 
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SelfSim

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Scientists find new colony structure of fire ants evolved in one species before spreading to others:
Scientists from Queen Mary University of London have discovered that a new form of ant society spread across species. They found that after the new form of society evolved in one species, a "social supergene" carrying the instruction-set for the new social form spread into other species. This spread occurred through hybridization, i.e., breeding between ants of different species. This unlikely event provides an alternate way of life, making the ants more successful than if they only had the original social form.
Large piece of chromosome was transferred:
The supergene region that creates multi-queen colonies is a large piece of chromosome that contains hundreds of genes.
Evolutionary explanation - competitive advantage overrides incompatiaiblities:
Transfer of large amounts of genetic information across species is rare because of genetic incompatibilities. However, in this case, the advantages of having multiple queens overrode the incompatibilities, and the genetic material repeatedly spread to other species from the one source species in which this new social form evolved. The multiple-queen social form has advantages in several situations. For example, a multiple-queen colony has more workers and thus can outcompete a colony with only one queen. Furthermore, if there is a flood, a colony with multiple queens is less likely to become queenless.

 
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Buzzard3

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What predictions get tested for eyes, I got no idea. I'm no biologist. I'm a math/physics type. I'm just pointing out that your expectations on testing don't fit the scientific method.
Really? To test the theory that the eye evolved due a process of mutations and natural selection, it is necessary to provide evidence that
(a) the eye evolved, and that
(b) mutations and natural selection were responsible for said evolution.
That is the scientific method.

Your post described a test for only part (a) ... the evolution of the eye. You totally neglected the other part, (b) ... how to test that mutations and selection are responsible for said evolution.
 
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ottawak

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Really? To test the theory that the eye evolved due a process of mutations and natural selection, it is necessary to provide evidence that
(a) the eye evolved, and that
(b) mutations and natural selection were responsible for said evolution.
That is the scientific method.

Your post described a test for only part (a) ... the evolution of the eye. You totally neglected the other part, (b) ... how to test that mutations and selection are responsible for said evolution.
There exists a competent mechanism demonstrated to be capable of making such changes. Of course it can never absolutely be ruled out that some faerie waved her magic wand and made it look like the changes were carried out by random variation and natural selection...
 
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Buzzard3

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And you're just reinforcing my comment. Why, according to you, should humans have just instantly been able to domesticate animals as soon as they could start cooking?
That's not what I said.
 
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AV1611VET

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Of course it can never absolutely be ruled out that some faerie waved her magic wand and made it look like the changes were carried out by random variation and natural selection...
That "magic wand" is what we call a pencil.

Only on paper can "faeries" connect their dots.
 
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ottawak

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That "magic wand" is what we call a pencil.

Only on paper can "faeries" connect their dots.
Exactly. So in the absense of a better explanation, random variation and selection is good enough to be going on with.
 
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Yttrium

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Really? To test the theory that the eye evolved due a process of mutations and natural selection, it is necessary to provide evidence that
(a) the eye evolved, and that
(b) mutations and natural selection were responsible for said evolution.
That is the scientific method.

No, it isn't, as I've repeatedly pointed out now. Testing under the scientific method is done for falsifiable predictions. You're making a strawman version of the scientific method.
 
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AV1611VET

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Exactly. So in the absense of a better explanation, random variation and selection is good enough to be going on with.
I would say YES.

Key phrase though: In the absence of a better explanation.
 
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AV1611VET

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No, it isn't, as I've repeatedly pointed out now. Testing under the scientific method is done for falsifiable predictions. You're making a strawman version of the scientific method.
Would rabbits in the Precambrian falsify evolution?
 
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Buzzard3

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Oh yeah, it could definitely be wrong, that is a fact. But what we have in the theory of evolution is a very good amount of evidence that is hard to overturn.
... especially so if one wilfully ignores any contrary evidence.

Why is that many card-carrying evolutionary scientists state that ToE is inadequate as an explanation for the fossil record?
We know how eyes evolved
Translation: "We think we have evidence that eyes evolved. Some of us choose to believe that that perceived evidence is enough to declare it a fact that eyes evolved ... simply because that's what we want to believe."
through natural selection via genes. It's not that hard.
"It's not that hard"? Hilarious. The fact of the matter is, it's IMPOSSIBLE to demonsrtate that eyes evolved through natural selection via genes. Believing what you want to believe is a long way from the scientific method.
So you've never actually studied bacteria and microbiology, have you? The cell wall of the bacteria? Ring any bells?
You seemed to have missed my point. If the cell wall did not suddenly appear 100% complete, of what use to the organism is only part of a cell wall?
How does only part of a cell wall confer a survival advantage?
And what empirical evidence is there that only part of a cell wall confers a survival advantage?
 
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Buzzard3

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Perhaps I should have put "ideas" in quotes, but I would have thought you knew what creationism was.


Does he write of "kinds", "special creations", "specified complexity", and various other creationist fill-ins for the regular science in his scientific publications?
Neither Dr. Gunter Bechly, nor anyone else at evolutionnews.org, ever mentions "kinds" or makes any reference to Biblical texts. And they certainly don't make any argument based on "kinds", bcoz they don't interpret Genesis literally.

As for "special creations" and
"specified complexity", I'm not sure.
 
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Buzzard3

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Marxism is largely dead
You must be joking. Western civilization, for starters, is dominated by cultural Marxism - the secular religion of Equality.

Feminism (including the vote for women),

gay rights and same-sex "marriage",

the Civil Rights movement (in America),

the virtual worship of negroid race, (rampant in the English-speaking world, including Australia),

politically-correct laguage,

affirmative action,

the obsession with "diversity"

... these are all manifestations of Marxism.
though Marx's analysis methods have some usefulness.
Such as?
 
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Buzzard3

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Marxism is largely dead
... not to mention Communist regimes in China, North Korea, Vietnam, Loas and Cuba; and the many Marxism-inspired governments in Latin America and Africa. (The ANC that rules in South Africa, for example, are a bunch of neo-communists.)

The "liberation" of many nations from colonization was/is inspired by Marxism, as is the ongoing demonization of colonization by the intellectual class.
 
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Buzzard3

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Nature can assemble 2x10³⁰ kg or more of hydrogen in a volume of around 864,000 miles across, and that much hydrogen will start fusion all by itself.
Well, you would know, having built many a star yourself.
 
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Buzzard3

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Stars are regularly observed at various stages of formation, with no evidence of some mysterious 'intelligence' involved in that formation.
Well, you would know that, having built many a star yourself.
 
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