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Evolution happens

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Buzzard3

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For clarity, I should have said " directly".
Of course there are scientists who are creationists.
For example, Dr. K Wise, PhD paleontology.
Do you have an example to cite?

Important details include, scientist in what field?
The oft - cited lists of creationist scientists are full
of engineers, mathematicians, doctors, and divers
fields that offer no qualification for opinions on biology / geology.
Please read my post #819 re Dr. Gunter Bechly. He's a distinguished German paleontologist with lots of insects named after him (for starters).
Another detail of interest is, why do they reject ToE?
What do you mean by "ToE"?

The folks at evolutionnews.org reject ToE as a scientifically adequate explanation for the fossil record. At least, that is my understanding of their position. Their aim appears to be to expose the weaknesses of same, which I think they do rather well.
None evidently have any actual data based reason
You obviously haven't read any of the articles published at evolutionnews.org. Btw, I've never known them to use the Bible to argue their position; it's completely science-based ... and they are definitely not Young Earth creationists.
certainly no Nobels handed out, nor a ripple in the pond.
Anyone who publicly rejects the Darwinist version of life's history would probably have zero chance of being awarded a Nobel Prize for science. One needs to be a card-carrying member of the Darwinist cult ... sorry, club ... for that to happen.
Also- returning to Dr. Wise, there is something a lot worse than
being clueless, which is intellectual dishonesty.
Unfortunately, it's true that some "professional" creationists have been exposed as being intellectually dishonest. But so have some Darwinists.
If you can direct me to a scientist or anyone else who is creationist,
well informed and intellectually honest, I will be most interested.
Try evolutionnews.org
 
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Buzzard3

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Talk is cheap all right.
You nor anyone who implicitly claims to know more than
any scientist on earth has one datum point of disproof.

That is how its done. Data.
Have you heard of the scientific method?
What are you talking about? I merely asked the poster to explain how the theory he was espousing can be tested.
 
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Buzzard3

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You seemed to be claiming that Bechly was an example of a scientist who was a creationist. So my question is very simple:

Does Bechly use the ideas of creationism in his scientific publications?
What do you mean by "the ideas of creationism"?
 
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Buzzard3

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Is that that process that gets thrown to the wind when it best suits the pitchers?
Kinda. It's the process that says, unless a theory can be tested, it's just a story and is worthless as science. Darwinists have an unfortunate penchant for producing endless streams of untestable theories about what supposedly happened millions of years ago. They delude themselves that these vacuous stories are "science".
Some Darwinists even make a living out of producing these stories. And a whole culture of pseudo-science has arisen on the back of the untestable theory that the history of life on earth is the result of natural selection acting on mutations.
 
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Buzzard3

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I had things in mind.

Reasons why scientists are willing to tell the scientific method to take a hike:
  1. to rig a vote in their favor -- (IAU vote to demote Pluto)
  2. sloppy rush jobs -- Thalidomide, Florida footbridge disaster
  3. to appease their employers/sponsors -- (LSD, tobacco, Hindenburg)
  4. to keep from having to investigate before they communicate -- (automatic denial of Biblical events)
There's another possibility: Those scientists that don't adhere to the scientific method are unwittingly pawns in Satan's game, which is to deceive mankind into believing that life on earth is the result of a purely natural process, and therefore there is no need to believe in a Creator. There is no Creator; there's only chemicals. As one atheist told me, "We're just grubs."
 
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AV1611VET

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Kinda. It's the process that says, unless a theory can be tested, it's just a story and is worthless as science. Darwinists have an unfortunate penchant for producing endless streams of untestable theories about what supposedly happened millions of years ago. They delude themselves that these vacuous stories are "science".
Some Darwinists even make a living out of producing these stories. And a whole culture of pseudo-science has arisen on the back of the untestable theory that the history of life on earth is the result of natural selection acting on mutations.
You should check out all the theories about how we got our moon!

I think the latest one now is the Two Moon Theory.

It's like throwing Jell-o against the wall and hoping something sticks.
 
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AV1611VET

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There's another possibility: Those scientists that don't adhere to the scientific method are unwittingly pawns in Satan's game, which is to deceive mankind into believing that life on earth is the result of a purely natural process, and therefore there is no need to believe in a Creator. There is no Creator; there's only chemicals. As one atheist told me, "We're just grubs."
That's exactly what I think the Antichrist is going to do during the Tribulation.
 
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Buzzard3

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You do know that these " arguments" amount to
no more than just being tiresome- right?
I feel for you ... I find Darwinist pseudo-science pretty tiresome are times ... but some of it is very entertaining.
 
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AV1611VET

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I feel for you ... I find Darwinist pseudo-science pretty tiresome are times ... but some of it is very entertaining.
Here's one of my "oldies but goodies" post:

Evolution, in my opinion, is nothing more than a revival of the Old Testament [times] idols.



Each nation had a primary deity, usually with the deity coupled with man in some way; and the scientific community is no exception.





images


Sagittarius

images


Horus



images


Dagon

images


Minotaur


images


Evolution

 
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Yttrium

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I merely asked the poster to explain how the theory he was espousing can be tested.

Me? I'm not espousing ToE. I'm just trying to clear up some misconceptions. I'd be perfectly happy if we could throw the theory out on its ear. Sure, I consider it to be the most likely explanation for the diversity of life, but I'm always skeptical, and if it turned out that there's a better explanation, that would be great.

And I made another post that touched on the testing. What predictions get tested for eyes, I got no idea. I'm no biologist. I'm a math/physics type. I'm just pointing out that your expectations on testing don't fit the scientific method.
 
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Buzzard3

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You should check out all the theories about how we got our moon!

I think the latest one now is the Two Moon Theory.

It's like throwing Jell-o against the wall and hoping something sticks.
I love the secular theory that our sun and all other stars, although they are virtually nuclear-fusion reactors, were not a result of intelligent design, but arose out of the chaos of an explosion (Big Bang). Scientists have been trying for decades to built a viable fusion reactor without success, yet mindless nature somehow managed to build billions of them!
 
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Buzzard3

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That's exactly what I think the Antichrist is going to do during the Tribulation.
As I alluded to in an earlier post, I think the following is already happening:

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Thess 2)

The theory-cum-belief that life on earth is the result of a purely natural process (that is supposedly now explained by "science" - ie, Darwinism) could be one of the Satanic, deceiving "lying wonders" mentioned above. And I think we are already in the "Tribulation" that you mention - I think it started with World War I (although that's just my opinion, for what it's worth).
 
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AV1611VET

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I love the secular theory that our sun and all other stars, although they are virtually nuclear-fusion reactors, were not a result of intelligent design, but arose out of the chaos of an explosion (Big Bang). Scientists have been trying for decades to built a viable fusion reactor without success, yet mindless nature somehow managed to build billions of them!
Good point!
 
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AV1611VET

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The theory-cum-belief that life on earth is the result of a purely natural process (that is supposedly now explained by "science" - ie, Darwinism) could be one of the Satanic, deceiving "lying wonders" mentioned above.
Darwin is mentioned as one of the seven in this book:

51OTVlFZ4sL._SX330_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


The seven are:
  1. Charles Darwin
  2. Karl Marx
  3. George Wellhausen
  4. John Dewey
  5. Sigmund Freud
  6. John Maynard Keynes
  7. Søren Kierkegaard
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Sounds fine in theory, and it is the best scientific explanation for the fossil record and there could be some truth in it, but then again it could be wrong. No one can ever know the truth.

Oh yeah, it could definitely be wrong, that is a fact. But what we have in the theory of evolution is a very good amount of evidence that is hard to overturn.

Secondly, no extrapolation of the date shows us “how eyes evolved” – all you’ve got is perceived evidence that eyes did evolve. As for HOW eyes evolved, you’ve got zilch. It’s my understanding that it’s impossible for anyone to demonstrate the eyes evolved (assuming that’s even true) via a process of artificial selection acting on mutations.

We know how eyes evolved: through natural selection via genes. It's not that hard.

If it’s not sudden, it’s gradual. So you’re assuming that part of a “resistant outer layer” and part of a “light reactive photosensor” provided a survival advantage. Got any empirical evidence to support this theory? If not, it’s not science but just another vacuous Darwinian story.

So you've never actually studied bacteria and microbiology, have you? The cell wall of the bacteria? Ring any bells?

… in which case, you’ve heavily misinterpreted my comments.

Get this: According to Darwinian folklore, 500,000 years ago, humans were smart enough to use fire for cooking, etc, but it took them another 490,000 years to come up with the idea of domesticating animals. Hilarious.

And you're just reinforcing my comment. Why, according to you, should humans have just instantly been able to domesticate animals as soon as they could start cooking?
 
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ottawak

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I love the secular theory that our sun and all other stars, although they are virtually nuclear-fusion reactors, were not a result of intelligent design, but arose out of the chaos of an explosion (Big Bang). Scientists have been trying for decades to built a viable fusion reactor without success, yet mindless nature somehow managed to build billions of them!
A surprising position for a Roman Catholic to take, I should think. You are aware that the Church rejects Intelligent Design?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Even if that were true (and not another Darwinist fantasy), it tells me nothing about how humans evolved to be infinitely more intelligent than chimps.
Humans are not 'infinitely more intelligent' than chimps. In some aspects of intelligence, chimps perform better than humans. But we developed deliberative reasoning, more sophisticated metacognition, and language, which give us a huge advantage in specific areas. In typical human fashion, we select the specific areas in which we excel and define these as the measure of superiority over other creatures. This is called hubris.

But as you can see from the ongoing wars and tribalism around the world - and the point-scoring and tribalism in these forums - our superior reasoning is a rather thin veneer over our baser animal instincts. Empirical evidence suggests that our wonderful powers of reason are mainly used to justify our feelings and the actions that follow from them - as Hume said in 1740, "reason is a slave to the passions."

So a mutation happened along that made an ape start using fire to cook food?
That was a behavioural change, so not a result of any specific mutations, but an indirect result of the mutations that produced an increase in intelligence in using and manipulating objects, e.g. tools. It's not hard to imagine how it might have happened - natural fires will cook vegetables and animals that can't escape, and a hungry hunter-gatherer would be surprised at how tasty and easy to eat such food was. Before learning/discovering how to make fire, burning or glowing sticks or embers from natural fire would have been carried as precious sources for new fires - this is still done in some hunter-gatherer cultures.

The knowledge of how to use fire to cook would be passed down the generations; this is called culture. We have observed how some monkeys, dolphins, and even birds, have discovered how to make useful tools from natural objects and their offspring and others have learned from them how to do the same. So animals can have culture too.

Nice story, but what a pity there's not a scrap of empirical evidence that suggests more calories will cause the evolution of a larger and smarter brain.
You misunderstood me, I said, "...more calories to support larger brains." IOW, more calories don't cause bigger brains, they enable or allow for bigger brains. A human brain requires a lot of energy - it uses about 20% of the energy the body produces. Energy usage is finely balanced, and without surplus calories, an increase in brain size (perhaps a mutation that causes it to grow for longer, or to make more nerve cells) is likely to be a disadvantage, it will not have sufficient energy to function effectively and/or it will reduce the energy available to the rest of the body. But when surplus calories are available, mutations that increase brain size become advantageous.

... which tells me nothing about me nothing about how humans evolved to be infinitely more intelligent than chimps.
They didn't. See the start of this post.
 
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Hans Blaster

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What do you mean by "the ideas of creationism"?

Perhaps I should have put "ideas" in quotes, but I would have thought you knew what creationism was.

Does he write of "kinds", "special creations", "specified complexity", and various other creationist fill-ins for the regular science in his scientific publications?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Darwin is mentioned as one of the seven in this book:

The seven are:
  1. Charles Darwin
  2. Karl Marx
  3. George Wellhausen
  4. John Dewey
  5. Sigmund Freud
  6. John Maynard Keynes
  7. Søren Kierkegaard

Do the really "rule" post-mortem? Of the two, only Keynes and Darwin seem to have any real impact on the modern world.

Darwin (and his contemporaries like Wallace) certainly has a large impact on evolutionary theory (the topic of this thread), but as with any science those ideas have been updated with new discoveries.

Keynes certainly has a large impact on modern thinking on macroeconomics and government and central bank actions.

Of the rest...

Marxism is largely dead, though Marx's analysis methods have some usefulness.

Freud's impact on psychiatry continue to fade and are replaced by more scientific concepts of mind and mental health.

Dewey's fine in your local public library, but I prefer the Library of Congress system used in research libraries.

Never heard of Wellhausen. I hear references to Kierkegaard, but have no idea who he was. Must be ~~real~~ important guys.
 
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