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Evolution happens

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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If bacteria can evolve into non-bacteria (eg, a human), I can't see why a dog can't evolve into a non-dog.

Except that the evolution from bacteria to non-bacterial life is simply the change from single cellular organisms to multi-cellular organisms. It would basically be lots of bacteria coming together and forming a colony of bacteria, with then through outside pressures evolves things like singular locomotion, a resistant outer layer, light reactive photosensors, etc.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Nothing is compatible with evolution. Adaptation, yes. Evolution, no. And they are not the same thing.
There are two meanings for adaptation in biology, the physiological adaptation that occurs in individuals, and the population adaptation of evolution. Your claim that 'nothing is compatible with evolution' is, sadly, profoundly ignorant of evolution.
 
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Mr Laurier

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I don't have to ... it's Darwinists who need to show that a human can evolve from a fish.
And since Darwinists have never claimed that a human can evolve from a fish.... NO THEY DONT.
 
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Mr Laurier

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If bacteria can evolve into non-bacteria (eg, a human), I can't see why a dog can't evolve into a non-dog.
And again you resort to the capital IF.
Bacteria are a whole domain of their own.
Humans are part of the Animal kingdom, within the domain of Eucaria. A totally separate domain that has been seperated from bacteria for over a BILLION years.
 
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Mr Laurier

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My question is:
If a human can evolve from a fish, why can't a non-dog (theoretically) evolve from a dog?

If you don't know why, just say "I don't know."
And more capital IF nonsense.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Whether there was one original ancestor or whether there were more than one, wouldn't the collective evolutionary outcomes look the same?

I ask this because it is the environment that determines the direction(s) evolution takes, so the collective evolutionary outcome of one common ancestor would look exactly the same as the collective evolutionary outcome of more than one original ancestors, wouldn't it?
It's a good question, and the answer is yes and no ;)

It's yes, to the extent that common basic challenges are likely to lead to common basic solutions - this is the topic of convergent evolution. The challenge of maintaining a consistent internal environment leads to cell walls and skins, moving efficiently through water typically leads to a streamlined shape with controlling fins, moving efficiently on the ground typically leads to legs, moving efficiently through the air leads to wings, supporting soft body parts leads to endoskeletons and exoskeletons, awareness of predators and prey tends to lead to eyes, ears, scent detectors, pressure detectors, and so on. Also, scale (size) has significance in how creatures are structured.

It's no, to the extent that, even given the environmentally-determined optimizations & constraints above, the diversity of life that has arisen from a single common ancestor is still extraordinary. An entirely different tree of life would be expected to be equally diverse, but probably with very different body plans to the basic vertebrate or arthropod we are familiar with. Yes, there would be legs, eyes, wings, fins, etc., but the implementation of those features would likely be significantly different.
 
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AV1611VET

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And again you resort to the capital IF.
Bacteria are a whole domain of their own.
Humans are part of the Animal kingdom, within the domain of Eucaria. A totally separate domain that has been seperated from bacteria for over a BILLION years.
Thank you for QED'ing Post 715.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The problem is, evolution can't account for the massive difference between the mental capacity of humans and that of the other apes.
Actually, it can. We can trace the genetic changes that led to increased brain size (human-specific NOTCH2NL genes), and the genetic changes that led to the anatomical changes that allowed more space for larger brains in the skull. These anatomical changes were made possible by behavioural changes, especially the use of fire to cook food, which meant far more nutrition with far less chewing, allowing smaller jaws and smaller chewing muscles, and providing more calories to support larger brains.

The initial increase in brain size led to behavioural improvements all-round - better tools, better hunting, better fire management, better cooperation, communication, etc. The increased social complexity and sophistication, language, etc., in turn, made even greater intelligence an advantage... So you can see that the start of the use of fire and tools was a tipping point that led to a runaway synergistic 'virtuous circle' of improvement, where each change reinforced the others.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Which part of the theory of evolution predicts that a bacteria will evolve into an animal?
The theory doesn't predict how evolution will affect populations because - as you pointed out earlier - it is the environment that selects which random variations will be most successful. We can't predict either the environmental changes on evolutionary scales of millions or billions of years, or the random variations in individuals or populations.

Would you expect to find a human evolving from a fish, according to ToE?
Given the caveat on predictions (above), it's impossible to say in advance, but with hindsight the evidence is clear - and it is entirely consistent with the ToE.

How do you test the theory that a human evolved from a fish via a process of mutations and natural selection? I would say that's impossible.
Well that's just one implication of the ToE. Darwin formulated the theory by looking at a wide variety of extant life in a wide variety of geographical locations and environments and considering why they followed the patterns they did. Since then, every discovery has confirmed his idea, especially the millions of fossils discovered, and the genetic relationships between extant life.

But at the time, there was no molecular biology and relatively few fossils, but even so, it was possible to see that all vertebrates had the same basic structure and body plan, from skeleton to organs, all made in the same way, and it was possible to see that, for example, all mammals shared specific differences in the basic body plan, and the more similar the species appeared, the more similar their internals were. IOW they gave every appearance of being related.

What's more, it was possible to see how small changes in an ancestral tree from a common ancestor could produce those similarities in every mammal. The same process could be applied to comparisons between vertebrate classes - and the clues were there - fish that could walk along the seabed using modified fins; walking and hopping fish that could spend time out of water, gulping air to breathe; amphibians that spent most of their time out of water, reptiles that were wholly land-dwelling, and so on. All seemingly displayed progressive anatomical steps that related them by common ancestry.

Then, when they looked at the embryological development of all land-dwelling vertebrates, they found clear indications of shared ancestry with fish - the early stages of embryo development were almost identical, they all developed tail-like features, all tetrapods developed slits ('pharyngeal arches') below the head, and limb buds. Then they began to diverge; the slits became gills in fish embryos, and face, jaw, and ear structures in mammals; the limb buds became fins in fish and limbs in mammals, etc. This strongly suggested a common ancestral origin.

As time went on, more and more fossils were found, also consistent with the ToE, and eventually, molecular biology (modern genetics) showed that the same patterns of relationships were present in the genes. It showed that the closest genetic relation to humans was the chimpanzee, and we found fossil humans and hominins that led back through a complex lineage to a primitive ancestor in Africa, all consistent with the ToE and the genetic, embryological, and other indicators of common ancestry.

So it helps to see the evidence for the bigger evolutionary picture to get an idea of the overwhelming amount of evidence for it, not just 'fish to humans' - and I've only mentioned three lines of evidence, there are various others. For a full and readable description, I would recommend Neil Shubin's book, 'Your Inner Fish' (seriously).

Really? The theory of Punctuated Equilbrium is based on observations in the fossil record ... and it's tested by the very same observations in the fossils record? That's not a test, it's just circular reasoning.
Well, PE was proposed to explain the 'sudden' appearance of species in the fossil record, and is generally thought to have been rather exaggerated by Gould. But it has been tested in the fossil record by finding fossils that did, as it predicts, change very little over evolutionary timescales; also, more species were found that appeared relatively suddenly in the record, but that had clear ancestral precedents at various temporal removes.

PE attempts to explain macroevolutionary trends in the fossil record - how can such long-term (millions of years) macroevolution be observed in "living animals"?
The main explanation for periods of relative evolutionary stasis is the lack of selective pressures, i.e. a consistent environment. Species change rapidly or go extinct when the environment changes relatively quickly. There are living creatures that have changed relatively little for millions of years and we find that they are either extremely adaptable (e.g. ants), or their environment has remained relatively stable for millions of years (e.g. oceanic fish, particularly deep ocean). We also find that relatively rapid environmental changes lead to rapid observable evolutionary changes.

I'm not talking about empirical evolution; I'm talking about evolutionary theories about what supposdly happened millions of years ago, most of which it seems can't be tested, which means such theories don't even qualify as science.

Any fool can theorize about what might have happened eons ago, but if a theory can't be tested, it's just hot air and worthless as science.
The ToE is tested almost every time a new discovery is made in any of the lines of evidence that support it - it could be falsified by almost every new discovery if it didn't conform to the expected pattern; every new fossil discovered, every new species whose genome is sequenced, every new embryological study, and so on. The classic example, given by J.B.S. Haldane, was "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian". As it happens, we've had ~150 years, with millions of new discoveries, including in whole new fields of biology that didn't exist when the ToE was formulated, and they all support it, without exception ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Caveat - to whom it may concern, I wrote this in a hurry, so if I made a blunder, please point it out :eek:
 
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Buzzard3

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Spears, jewelry, burials, artistic objects objects... probably religion... all much, much older than 5000 years.

It's not an impressive argument: "Humans have been working metal for thousands of years, but only built electronics for a century, funny that."

It's silly.
According to Darwinist folklore, humans have existed for 300,000 years, but the wheel was invented only about 6000 years ago and writing was invented only about 5000 years ago. Funny that.

Looks like humans were morons for 294,000 years and then they suddenly became brainy about 6000 years ago and started inventing all kinds of clever stuff. Fascinating. A curious case of Punctuated Equilibrium, maybe?
 
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Buzzard3

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And since Darwinists have never claimed that a human can evolve from a fish.... NO THEY DONT.
Sorry, I'll re-word that ... Darwinists claim that humans DID evolve from fish.
 
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Buzzard3

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It's a good question, and the answer is yes and no ;)

It's yes, to the extent that common basic challenges are likely to lead to common basic solutions - this is the topic of convergent evolution. The challenge of maintaining a consistent internal environment leads to cell walls and skins, moving efficiently through water typically leads to a streamlined shape with controlling fins, moving efficiently on the ground typically leads to legs, moving efficiently through the air leads to wings, supporting soft body parts leads to endoskeletons and exoskeletons, awareness of predators and prey tends to lead to eyes, ears, scent detectors, pressure detectors, and so on. Also, scale (size) has significance in how creatures are structured.

It's no, to the extent that, even given the environmentally-determined optimizations & constraints above, the diversity of life that has arisen from a single common ancestor is still extraordinary. An entirely different tree of life would be expected to be equally diverse, but probably with very different body plans to the basic vertebrate or arthropod we are familiar with. Yes, there would be legs, eyes, wings, fins, etc., but the implementation of those features would likely be significantly different.
Thank you for taking the time to compile that reply to my question.
 
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Buzzard3

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The theory doesn't predict how evolution will affect populations because - as you pointed out earlier - it is the environment that selects which random variations will be most successful. We can't predict either the environmental changes on evolutionary scales of millions or billions of years, or the random variations in individuals or populations.

Given the caveat on predictions (above), it's impossible to say in advance, but with hindsight the evidence is clear - and it is entirely consistent with the ToE.

Well that's just one implication of the ToE. Darwin formulated the theory by looking at a wide variety of extant life in a wide variety of geographical locations and environments and considering why they followed the patterns they did. Since then, every discovery has confirmed his idea, especially the millions of fossils discovered, and the genetic relationships between extant life.

But at the time, there was no molecular biology and relatively few fossils, but even so, it was possible to see that all vertebrates had the same basic structure and body plan, from skeleton to organs, all made in the same way, and it was possible to see that, for example, all mammals shared specific differences in the basic body plan, and the more similar the species appeared, the more similar their internals were. IOW they gave every appearance of being related.

What's more, it was possible to see how small changes in an ancestral tree from a common ancestor could produce those similarities in every mammal. The same process could be applied to comparisons between vertebrate classes - and the clues were there - fish that could walk along the seabed using modified fins; walking and hopping fish that could spend time out of water, gulping air to breathe; amphibians that spent most of their time out of water, reptiles that were wholly land-dwelling, and so on. All seemingly displayed progressive anatomical steps that related them by common ancestry.

Then, when they looked at the embryological development of all land-dwelling vertebrates, they found clear indications of shared ancestry with fish - the early stages of embryo development were almost identical, they all developed tail-like features, all tetrapods developed slits ('pharyngeal arches') below the head, and limb buds. Then they began to diverge; the slits became gills in fish embryos, and face, jaw, and ear structures in mammals; the limb buds became fins in fish and limbs in mammals, etc. This strongly suggested a common ancestral origin.

As time went on, more and more fossils were found, also consistent with the ToE, and eventually, molecular biology (modern genetics) showed that the same patterns of relationships were present in the genes. It showed that the closest genetic relation to humans was the chimpanzee, and we found fossil humans and hominins that led back through a complex lineage to a primitive ancestor in Africa, all consistent with the ToE and the genetic, embryological, and other indicators of common ancestry.

So it helps to see the evidence for the bigger evolutionary picture to get an idea of the overwhelming amount of evidence for it, not just 'fish to humans' - and I've only mentioned three lines of evidence, there are various others. For a full and readable description, I would recommend Neil Shubin's book, 'Your Inner Fish' (seriously).

Well, PE was proposed to explain the 'sudden' appearance of species in the fossil record, and is generally thought to have been rather exaggerated by Gould. But it has been tested in the fossil record by finding fossils that did, as it predicts, change very little over evolutionary timescales; also, more species were found that appeared relatively suddenly in the record, but that had clear ancestral precedents at various temporal removes.

The main explanation for periods of relative evolutionary stasis is the lack of selective pressures, i.e. a consistent environment. Species change rapidly or go extinct when the environment changes relatively quickly. There are living creatures that have changed relatively little for millions of years and we find that they are either extremely adaptable (e.g. ants), or their environment has remained relatively stable for millions of years (e.g. oceanic fish, particularly deep ocean). We also find that relatively rapid environmental changes lead to rapid observable evolutionary changes.

The ToE is tested almost every time a new discovery is made in any of the lines of evidence that support it - it could be falsified by almost every new discovery if it didn't conform to the expected pattern; every new fossil discovered, every new species whose genome is sequenced, every new embryological study, and so on. The classic example, given by J.B.S. Haldane, was "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian". As it happens, we've had ~150 years, with millions of new discoveries, including in whole new fields of biology that didn't exist when the ToE was formulated, and they all support it, without exception ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Caveat - to whom it may concern, I wrote this in a hurry, so if I made a blunder, please point it out :eek:
Phew! Once again, thank you for your reply. It will take a while for my fragile, egg-shell mind to digest all that.
 
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Gene2memE

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According to Darwinist folklore, humans have existed for 300,000 years, but the wheel was invented only about 6000 years ago and writing was invented only about 5000 years ago. Funny that.

Do you know the difference between anatomical modernity and behavioural modernity?

Looks like humans were morons for 294,000 years and then they suddenly became brainy about 6000 years ago and started inventing all kinds of clever stuff. Fascinating.

Except Humans have been:

Wearing clothes for at least 150,000 years
Making jewelry for at least 90,000 years
Making glues for at least 70,000 years
Making art for at least 65,000 years
Playing music for at least 50,000 years
Weaving for at least 35,000 years
Making ceramics for at least 28,000 years
Planting fields for at least 23,000 years
Domesticating animals for at least 16,000 years
Doing dentistry for at least 9,000 years
Smelting metals and making bricks for at least 7,000 years

Either all of this happened before humans "suddenly became brainy", or your potted hypothesis is incorrect.
 
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AV1611VET

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Sorry, I'll re-word that ... Darwinists claim that humans DID evolve from fish.

41VOD+kTExL._AC_SX466_.jpg
 
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Buzzard3

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Do you know the difference between anatomical modernity and behavioural modernity?
Why, of course. I remember being taught about that stuff in Grade 2. It was so boring!
Except Humans have been:

Wearing clothes for at least 150,000 years
Making jewelry for at least 90,000 years
Making glues for at least 70,000 years
Making art for at least 65,000 years
Playing music for at least 50,000 years
Weaving for at least 35,000 years
Making ceramics for at least 28,000 years
Planting fields for at least 23,000 years
Domesticating animals for at least 16,000 years
Doing dentistry for at least 9,000 years
Smelting metals and making bricks for at least 7,000 years
Well, such stories are necessary to help prop up the myth ... that humans are 300,000 years old.
Either all of this happened before humans "suddenly became brainy", or your potted hypothesis is incorrect.
... or "all of this" is Darwinist fantasy and humans were created less than 10,000 years ago.
 
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