A few questions for Protestants

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
the sola scriptura model for testing all doctrine and practice - that I use - places the Bible as the thing that tests - since it is the work of God the Holy Spirit and in perfect harmony with Christ's teaching. In fact Christ is the one speaking at Sinai according to Heb 8:6-12

As did Christ use sola scriptura in Mark 7:6-12


7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Yeah right … they all say that, including nutters

hmm - a dismissal ?

Why should I believe that your method is the “work of God the Holy Spirit and in perfect harmony with Christ’s teaching”? For all I know, you could be one of the “ignorant...

In Acts 17:11 even non-Christian Bereans used the "sola scriptura" test successfully -

"they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

 

[BobRyan]

Yes it does ... in John 16:13 (for starters), Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead us to "all truth". .

And the Holy Spirit gave us the Bible to test/and-correct doctrine

2 Tim 3:16
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Pet 1:19-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

so we read what God said.

 

[timothyu]

And since this is a thread to ask Protestants such as yourself questions, how many Catholics do you believe were killed/ during the Protestant Inquisition?

What goes around comes around. What you sow you reap, etc. However this applies to all man so regardless of sect both were driven by the ways of man and not of the Kingdom. There is no moral high ground in a church that bases itself on the ways of man.

 

[Fidelibus]

The trouble with your whole line of questions is that they all assume that we hear the Spirit perfectly and that the goal of the Spirit is to cause everyone of us to believe exactly the same on every doctrine.

Then you as an adherent of sola scriptura, (the bible alone) should have no trouble showing a non-adherent of sola scriptura like me the book, chapter and or verse where it says the Holy Spirit's goal is not have everyone to believe the same about the Holy Scriptures, God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Christianity as a whole.

I don't believe having the fullness of the Spirit is even about having perfect doctrine.

You don't huh? Does the Bible agree with you on this? If so, as a sola scripturist could you back this up with the Bible alone? Book, Chapter, or Verse please.

And of course, the same questions could be applied to all the people who Catholics are but actually disagree with or are ignorant of many or most of the RCC doctrines. Are they all led by the Spirit? I know, you think the Church itself has perfect doctrines, but the Bible never promises that.

Again renniks, if you were to have the sand to start a thread that I suggested you do earlier, I just may take it upon myself to dispel the misunderstandings and myths of Catholicism you've been falsely taught and indoctrinated too over the years.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Fidelibus]

What goes around comes around. What you sow you reap, etc.

Really? So, you as a self-admitted bible alone believing sola scripturist, maybe you can show us the scripture verses where it says...... "What goes around comes around." And ....."What you sow you reap, etc."

However this applies to all man so regardless of sect both were driven by the ways of man and not of the Kingdom. There is no moral high ground in a church that bases itself on the ways of man.

Said the fella that didn't have "the sand" to answer the questions on post # 852.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[renniks]

Yes it does ... in John 16:13 (for starters), Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead us to "all truth". You find this verse hard to accept because you look at your Protestant world as see that it's a maelstrom of doctrinal confusion.

You have totally missed or skirted around the point that all truth isn't about having all your doctrinal ducks in a row.
How many truths are there? Since you don't believe this is about personal sanctification, you have already denied one of the most obvious answers.
Does it mean truth about prophecy?
Guidence of what path to take in our personal life to experience God fully?
There's a lot of truths to consider

But, context is important....Jesus had just called himself, “the way, the truth, and the life” at the start of that discourse (John 14:6). That is the claim of Christ which shows what ‘truth’ the Holy Spirit would speak of, to them. He would elevate Christ... He would point them to Christ (not himself). He would enable them to know the truth about Christ, who IS the truth!
To reduce it to checking off doctrine boxes in some church sect is to miss the personal nature of what Jesus was talking about, IMO.
The truth is about belonging to Christ, not to any denomination.

 

[timothyu]

maybe you can show us the scripture verses where it says......

Sure.. live by the sword die by the sword. I feel sorry for those who will defend their sect of Christianity over defending the Kingdom.

Galatians 6:7
Verse Concepts
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

Galatians 6:8
Verse Concepts
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Matthew 26: 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

 

[renniks]

Then you as an adherent of sola scriptura, (the bible alone) should have no trouble showing a non-adherent of sola scriptura like me the book, chapter and or verse where it says the Holy Spirit's goal is not have everyone to believe the same about the Holy Scriptures, God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Christianity as a whole.

Of course there are central doctrines like the resurrection and Jesus' divinity that all all important, but there's a ton of side issues that are not important that we all think the same about.
But your question is backwards. Show me where in scripture we are told we all must believe the same thing about everything. Instead Paul points out that we should allow differences and respect them.
He could have made a doctrine out of what Christians should eat ( sounds familiar) but he didn't.. not in eating of meat offered to idols and such.
I submit that mainline protestant churches do believe the same central doctrines. They vary, but not in whether Jesus is God, whether the Bible is true,
Or that God is all powerful, ect.

 

[Fidelibus]

Sure.. live by the sword die by the sword. I feel sorry for those who will defend their sect of Christianity over defending the Kingdom.

Thank you for posting these verses (Gal.6:7-8; Matt.26:52) timothyu. Now, as a Catholic, I believe in the Bible 100%. However, I do not believe your personal and fallible interpretation of these verses apply here.

What I have found in my Catholic bible studies is, to get the full meaning of Gal.6:7-8, verses 1,2,3,4,5,6,9, and 10 need to be included. In verse 1, Paul is writing about the obligation to correct a Christian brother or sister who is committing sin. It is an unpleasant but a necessary task to promote the welfare of our Christian brothers and sisters as individuals and as the Church that is the Body of Christ. Such correction must be an act of gentle mercy and encouragement motivated by love. Jesus spoke about the same kind of correction of a brother or sister within the covenant family in Matthew 18:15-17. So, let me ask you, what do you think Jesus said was the correct procedure in such matters and what additional warning does Paul add?

In verse 2 we see Paul referring to the entire life of Jesus Christ is the law of Christian living. His Law of love is summarized in His commandment to love (Jn 13:34-35), in being willing to accept Christ's easy "yoke" of love (Mt 11:29-30), and to carry the burdens of others as Jesus did for us: He himself bore out sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed (1 Pt 2:24).

This is another of those times when Paul uses the word "fulfill" when he writes about those who are in Christ and their relationship to the Law. Here he uses the verb anapleroun. To "bear one another's burdens" is to "serve one another through love" as Paul wrote in 5:13.

For verse 3, The discipline of self-examination is the cure for self-deception. Paul is encouraging a comparison between what we were before coming to Christ with what we are with the Spirit living within us and to give the glory to God. The word "load" in verse 5 refers to a soldier's equipment pack. Correcting one's own behavior avoids burdening others with our corrections.

In verse 6, Paul is referring to catechetical instruction. One should offer the material and financial support a congregation owes to their spiritual leaders (Lk. 10:7; 1 Cor. 9:11-14).

In verses 7-8, the concept of sowing and then reaping the harvest of what has been sowed for good or for ill is frequently a teaching in Scripture (see for example Job 4:8; Jer. 17:10 and Jesus' parable of the seed and the sower in Mt. 13:1-9 and 18-23). So, let me ask you timothyu, with the understanding that the sower is each person, and the field in which the seed is sown is one's life, what is Paul's point?

As for Matt. 26:52, Let me ask you, how did Peter happen to have a sword and what was the purpose?

I also suggest you may want to take a look-see at Jn. 18:11 to see what Jesus says to Peter.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Fidelibus]

Of course there are central doctrines like the resurrection and Jesus' divinity that all all important, but there's a ton of side issues that are not important that we all think the same about.
But your question is backwards. Show me where in scripture we are told we all must believe the same thing about everything. Instead Paul points out that we should allow differences and respect them.
He could have made a doctrine out of what Christians should eat ( sounds familiar) but he didn't.. not in eating of meat offered to idols and such.
I submit that mainline protestant churches do believe the same central doctrines. They vary, but not in whether Jesus is God, whether the Bible is true,
Or that God is all powerful, ect.

Thank you renniks for posting your personal and fallible opinion, minus a single bible verse to back up what you said. Besides, if I wanted to hear your personal and fallible opinion, I would have asked for it. Something I obviously did not do. So again renniks, what I did ask was, "you", an adherent of sola scriptura (the bible alone), to show "me", a non-believer of sola scriptura, (the bible alone) the book, chapter and or verse from the bible alone, where it says the Holy Spirit's goal is not have everyone to believe the same about the Holy Scriptures, God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Christianity as a whole.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[renniks]

the Holy Scriptures, God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Christianity as a whole.

Lol, since I never claimed any such thing, why would I post a verse about it?
WE DO BELIEVE THE SAME ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

 

[Fidelibus]

Lol, since I never claimed any such thing, why would I post a verse about it?
WE DO BELIEVE THE SAME ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

Well, let's see. Back on your post #928, you said that Protestants believe in central doctrines like the resurrection and Jesus' divinity, and then you go on to say there are a 'ton' of issues that you all think about that are not important.

So, I guess my next inquiry to you would be, could you be more specific on these central doctrines Protestants believe in? (examples) So...... when or if you do, is it your belief that all Protestant and non-denominational churches and sects are in full unity believing them? I know you did yell out "WE DO BELIEVE THE SAME ABOUT THOSE THINGS" but I just wanted to be clear which specific doctrines within Protestantism you are referring.

-Could you also give examples of any non-central doctrines within Protestantism?

-Finally, could you also give examples of the side issues you all think about, that are not so important, and are they based on the bible?

Have a Blessed day!

 

[renniks]

Well, let's see. Back on your post #928, you said that Protestants believe in central doctrines like the resurrection and Jesus' divinity, and then you go on to say there are a 'ton' of issues that you all think about that are not important.

So, I guess my next inquiry to you would be, could you be more specific on these central doctrines Protestants believe in? (examples) So...... when or if you do, is it your belief that all Protestant and non-denominational churches and sects are in full unity believing them? I know you did yell out "WE DO BELIEVE THE SAME ABOUT THOSE THINGS" but I just wanted to be clear which specific doctrines within Protestantism you are referring.

-Could you also give examples of any non-central doctrines within Protestantism?

-Finally, could you also give examples of the side issues you all think about, that are not so important, and are they based on the bible?

Have a Blessed day!

Most any protestant church is going to affirm the Nicene Creed. If they don't believe the central doctines, then they are a cult.
We recited the Nicene Creed in Methodist Church. The only part that they clarify is that the Catholic church meaning used is the universal church.
Non essentials- debates over the nature of gifts of the Spirit, whether baptism is understood as merely symbolic or not. Women preachers, yay or nay, Calvinism vs Arminianism, old hymns or new worship songs, guitar vs piano and organ, there's a whole bunch of non important non essential issues.

 

[The Liturgist]

Said the fella that didn't have "the sand" to answer the questions on post # 852.

Besides, I highly doubt the many Catholic priests, Monks, sisters religious, and lay people were allowed questions before being ordered to renounce their Catholic faith before being burned, hung, drawn, quartered, and emasculated during the Protestant Inquisition after the Reformation.

And since this is a thread to ask Protestants such as yourself questions, how many Catholics do you believe were killed/ during the Protestant Inquisition? Also, how many Catholic Churches, monasteries, and convents were destroyed and plundered by the Protestants during the Protestant Inquisitions?

Have a Blessed Day!

It is such a tragedy how many Christians, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike, as well as Eastern Christians, have been killed in absurd sectarian conflicts, as recently as the Troubles in Northern Ireland, so this was still happening in the 1990s, in most of our lifetimes.

There are a handful of Protestant, Orthodox/Assyrian and sui juris Eastern Catholic churches which as far as I can tell never killed anyone, however, so while all three main branches of Christianity have engaged in sectarian violence, not all of the individual denominations or jurisdictions within those branches engaged in it, and there are several in each which have only ever been on the receiving end.

 

[Davy]

You must not have seen this question because I don't see where you addressed it.

For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!

I definitely addressed your post that I quoted in my post #908 above.

Your subject was against the Sola Scriptura idea (Scripture only). And God already answered you with that Isaiah 2:22 verse I quoted to you, and asked you about.

But since you don't care to explain how our Heavenly Father meant that Isaiah 2:22 verse, then you can go on about your deceptions as to who actually has authority to know what the Truth is.

 

[Buzzard3]

You have totally missed or skirted around the point that all truth isn't about having all your doctrinal ducks in a row.
How many truths are there? Since you don't believe this is about personal sanctification, you have already denied one of the most obvious answers.
Does it mean truth about prophecy?
Guidence of what path to take in our personal life to experience God fully?
There's a lot of truths to consider

But, context is important....Jesus had just called himself, “the way, the truth, and the life” at the start of that discourse (John 14:6). That is the claim of Christ which shows what ‘truth’ the Holy Spirit would speak of, to them. He would elevate Christ... He would point them to Christ (not himself). He would enable them to know the truth about Christ, who IS the truth!
To reduce it to checking off doctrine boxes in some church sect is to miss the personal nature of what Jesus was talking about, IMO.
The truth is about belonging to Christ, not to any denomination.

Correct doctrine forms the very basis of faith. Without it, there is no way of knowing if you are on the right path or not.

In Galatians 2, the Holy Spirit sent Paul to the Church leaders in Jerusalem to have his doctrines examined and approved, lest he be preaching "in vain".

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed."
Gal 1:8-9

 

[timothyu]

Yet the Gospel of the Kingdom took a back seat.

 

[renniks]

Correct doctrine forms the very basis of faith. Without it, there is no way of knowing if you are on the right path or not.

In Galatians 2, the Holy Spirit sent Paul to the Church leaders in Jerusalem to have his doctrines examined and approved, lest he be preaching "in vain".

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed."
Gal 1:8-9

And what was that gospel? Was it things like the real presence in the Eucharist and veneration of Mary? No.
What does Paul say about those who added more rules to the simple truth of the gospel?

"This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you."
11 "When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"

I have long viewed the Catholic church as those who add a heavy weights to men's backs with their strange rules and added doctrines. Only eat fish on certain days and no meat? Praying to the dead? And I could go on and on.

 

[Fidelibus]

Most any protestant church is going to affirm the Nicene Creed. If they don't believe the central doctines, then they are a cult.

Yes, but would you not agree there are many varieties of Protestantism, and among these varieties there is an enormous amount of theological diversity? For example, would you not agree the core distinctives on which Protestantism is based, like sola fide and sola scriptura are understood in markedly different ways?

Also, would you agree there are some Protestant groups, (Baptists for instance), that reject all "Creeds" on principle? ("No creed but the Bible") Would you consider them as a cult? I'm pretty sure they don't consider themselves as a cult.

We recited the Nicene Creed in Methodist Church.

"Recited"? Meaning as in past tense, they no longer recite the Nicene Creed? Or meaning you are no longer a Methodist?

The only part that they clarify is that the Catholic church meaning used is the universal church.

Like some sort of invisible church?

Non essentials- debates over the nature of gifts of the Spirit, whether baptism is understood as merely symbolic or not.

So are you saying that Baptism would be put in the "Non essentials" category?

Women preachers, yay or nay, Calvinism vs Arminianism, old hymns or new worship songs, guitar vs piano and organ, there's a whole bunch of non important non essential issues.

Well, how about the many Protestant churches and sects that consider same sex marriage as being acceptable in the eyes of God, and those that do not? As well as the many Protestant churches and sects that believe Abortion is acceptable in the Christian faith, and those that do not? Would you put these two beliefs in the essential category or the non-essential category?

You mentioned non-essentials beliefs renniks, which leads me to understand there must be "essential" beliefs, correct? So this has me wondering, where do Protestants go to find which beliefs are essential and which beliefs are non-essential? The Bible? Their Pastor? Did the Protestant Reformers make a list essentials/non-essentials for Protestants to follow or not follow? If in the bible, where in the bible could I find these lists? If from the Reformers, where could I find these lists in their writings? If from their Pastor, how did these pastors get the authority to teach of such lists?

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Albion]

Yes, but would you not agree there are many varieties of Protestantism, and among these varieties there is an enormous amount of theological diversity?

For example, would you not agree the core distinctives on which Protestantism is based, like sola fide and sola scriptura are understood in markedly different ways?

I think it would be safe to deny the accuracy of that statement, yes.

Also, would you agree there are some Protestant groups, (Baptists for instance), that reject all "Creeds" on principle? ("No creed but the Bible") Would you consider them as a cult? I'm pretty sure they don't consider themselves as a cult.

That is correct, but of course you're referring to a minority of Protestants there and there isn't any reason to expect any church to be identical to any other church just because a loose classification term like "Protestant" is applied to them.

That's the same with the various church classified as "Catholic," not one of which agrees doctrinally with the other churches of that same classification.