A few questions for Protestants

[Buzzard3]

Great point. I believe Jesus was a great teacher not prone to confusing His words. Why did he not start his sentence with "I am Jesus" instead of renaming Simon in the same sentence saying: "And I say to you that you are Rock (Peter) and upon this Rock I will build My Church?"

Exactly. And why would Jesus give Simon the name "rock" the very first time they met? In fact, the very first thing Jesus ever said to Simon was, "You are Simon, son of Johah. You will be called Kephas (which means "rock") John 1:42. This is a mysterious name change ... until one reads Matt 16:18 ... then it becomes obvious that Jesus not only chose Simon to be the "rock" on which he would build his Church, but Jesus had chosen Simon for this role before they'd even met.

It seems to me that most Protestants (consciously or unconsciously) deny the obvious connection between John 1:42 and Matt 16:18 (and v.19 - the "keys", for that matter) because to do so would be sail too close to the Catholic interpretation. (Oh noooooo!! Anything but that! Better to put one and one together and get zero!)

 

[timothyu]

Yes, even the Jews were looking for a literal earthly messiah, just as the institution later looked for literal human rocks

 

[Valletta]

Yes, even the Jews were looking for a literal earthly messiah, just as the institution later looked for literal human rocks

Jesus is recorded as renaming Simon as Rock, look to Jesus to know this.

 

[Buzzard3]

Yes, even the Jews were looking for a literal earthly messiah, just as the institution later looked for literal human rocks

In that case, why do you trust the Bible? ... it was written by humans!

 

[timothyu]

Jesus is recorded as renaming Simon as Rock, look to Jesus to know this.

As I said....

 

[timothyu]

In that case, why do you trust the Bible? ... it was written by humans!

Written by humans but contains the truth of God. Anyone who believes in transubstantiation should be able to grasp that concept of one thing being another.

 

[Buzzard3]

Written by humans but contains the truth of God. Anyone who believes in transubstantiation should be able to grasp that concept of one thing being another.

Oh, so you agree that God can use fallible humans to proclaim God's infallible truth?

 

[timothyu]

Oh, so you agree that God can use fallible humans to proclaim God's infallible truth?

Institutions are self proclaiming in order to control the narrative to justify the institution rather than the Kingdom.

 

[Valletta]

Institutions are self proclaiming in order to control the narrative to justify the institution rather than the Kingdom.

Instead of an institution try the Catholic Church.

 

[Buzzard3]

Institutions are self proclaiming in order to control the narrative to justify the institution rather than the Kingdom.

I noticed you didn't answer my question, so I'll try again:

Do you agree that God can use fallible humans to proclaim God's infallible word (eg, the Bible)?

 

[timothyu]

Instead of an institution try the Catholic Church.

That became the ultimate capital I institution of man.

 

[timothyu]

Do you agree that God can use fallible humans to proclaim God's infallible word (eg, the Bible)?

My answer was appropriate, just not the one you wanted to hear to fall in line with your narrative..

 

[Valletta]

That became the ultimate capital I institution of man.

Jesus heads the Catholic Church, I assure you he has not waivered.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus heads the Catholic Church, I assure you he has not waivered.

Actually He and His followers have never waivered from the Kingdom (unlike the new institution did when it abandoned the Kingdom to team up with the governance of man rather than of God).

 

[Valletta]

Actually He and His followers have never waivered from the Kingdom (unlike the new institution did when it abandoned the Kingdom to team up with the governance of man rather than of God).

Ephesians 4:5-6
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Romans 16:17
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

Final Instructions
I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

 

[Buzzard3]

My answer was appropriate, just not the one you wanted to hear to fall in line with your narrative..

So let me get this straight ... You're saying God has the power to make fallible men declare God's infallible word in the Bible, but God doesn't have the power to create a Church that declares God's infallible word?

 

[timothyu]

I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 28: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Acts 28: 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Odd what He taught on the only Gospel never got included in the canon. Conflict of interest?

 

[Buzzard3]

Simon, you are rock, the truth you have spoken will be the foundation the church of the people. People who understand that truth only comes from God and not the governments or institutions of self serving mankind

... except Jesus said nothing of the sort. For starters, Jesus didn't say he will build his Church on "the truth you have spoken" - he said he will build his Church on a person ... Peter ... that's why Jesus began the sentence by saying "And I say you are Peter ..."

 

[Buzzard3]

Certainly. A person experiences that fullness in any church that has the Holy Spirit. Some churches will leave you as empty as you came in.

Oh, so "the fullness of Christ" is an emotion?

And how come some churches have "the fullness of Christ" and some don't? What makes the difference?

 

[timothyu]

... except Jesus said nothing of the sort. For starters, Jesus didn't say he will build his Church on "the truth you have spoken" - he said he will build his Church on a person ... Peter ... that's why Jesus began the sentence by saying "And I say you are Peter ..."

Yes, you Simon Peter are speaking the foundation of My church, truth not from man but from the Father.