Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Shrewd Manager]

Scriptural support? Cause the verses you refer to don't say that.

And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:24-27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:24-27 - American Standard Version

Only the ones written. It doesn't say anything about everyone that ever lived is written in there. The words are clear indication that only some are written. Not everyone. There are still those that don't get in. Tie this to

And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:14-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:14-15 - American Standard Version

And it's clear the Lambs book is checked at this time. If you are not in it you are cast into the Lake of Fire. There NO indication that it's for purging you of sin so you can repent. Nothing in these verses say or indicate that.

We've been over this before. Let me try again, in a highly abbreviated fashion.

1. The nations, descended from the tribes of Noah's sons Ham and Japheth, are the traditional enemies of God's people throughout the Bible and history, the unbelievers and heathen. They are living under the curse on Adam, the curse of sin and death and associated suffering.
2. God nonetheless promises Abraham that all the nations shall be blessed through his descendants.
3. God progressively reveals what blessing means, through Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and so on. Israel is instructed to be a light to the nations.
4. Even so, Israel, the people of Shem, become ensnared by the curse and lose touch with God.
5. God pronounces Babylonian destruction and exile, but not before having Jeremiah sign the title deeds.
6. God reveals to Cyrus that He plans to save everyone, all the nations, through a saviour. He reassures them that although Israel failed as a light to the nations, He already had a plan to send a saviour set all free.
7. After the return from Babylon, Israel again starts to slide, cosying up to foreign gods.
8. Jesus Christ comes as the incarnation of the promise, to reveal that God is for us not against us, and to seal the promise of blessing, salvation for all who believe, and to expose and disarm the enemy. The truth is revealed about the reconciliation of the world to God.
9. Revelation reveals how that plan is to be consummated, through the tribulation, the resurrections, the removal of spiritual agents of deception and oppression, the reign of Christ and finally the repentance and healing of the nations in the miraculous renewal of all things. And there will be no more curse!

The Bible is a book of hope, faith, love, and the total victory of Christ. For what else could it mean to 'put all enemies under his feet' than to make the wicked righteous?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Your not surprised are you? The Bible says that will happen. It's certainly not because of people preaching that you need to believe to b saved.

But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good,traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts,ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth; men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be evident unto all men, as theirs also came to be.But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. - 2 Timothy 3:1-9,13 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 2 Timothy 3:13 - American Standard Version

Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints.For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.Woe unto them! for they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved for ever.And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their lusts (and their mouth speaketh great swelling words ), showing respect of persons for the sake of advantage. - Jude 1:3-4,7,11-16 Bible Gateway passage: Jude 3-4, Jude 7, Jude 11-16 - American Standard Version

In fact Jesus told us to expect hatred from the world because they hated Him and reflected him, so we too shall be rejected.

Despite the teachings that evil men shall wax worse and worse, and that the all shall take the mark of the Beast, and that God shall send a strong delusion to the unrighteous, I am shocked by the depth of blindness and corruption in the church, particularly as revealed over the last 2 years.

You must be born again to receive salvation.

To be born again is the first event of salvation, and that occurs by the grace of God, Him pouring out His Spirit. It's nothing we do. The result of being knocked off our camel on the Damascus Rd is repentance, a change of mind. After that, we must become labourers in Christ, but still rely solely on He who has started a good work to finish it.

And there is no offer to those who have died to be born again.

That's where we disagree. I understand that one could read the scriptures as suggesting incineration, my faith is that the destruction applies to the flesh (figuratively), so that the spirit can be saved and the total victory of Christ can be assured.

 

[Hmm]

Let me try again, in a highly abbreviated fashion.

Lol! Appropriate though.

 

[John Mullally]

It's a doctrinal issue for those who claim Jesus did not save the whole world, or that he only saved "the Elect". Jesus was SENT to be the Savior of the world. Did he succeed or fail?

Jesus gave the “Parable of the Wedding Banquet” in Matthew 22 and compared it to the kingdom of heaven.

The King’s sent his servants out and they gave the invitation to the wedding banquet to everyone. Yet, many missed out because they either chose not to attend or did not wear the required wedding clothes. The King was not unsuccessful.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus gave the “Parable of the Wedding Banquet” in Matthew 22 and compared it to the kingdom of heaven.

The King’s sent his servants out and they gave the invitation to the wedding banquet to everyone. Yet, many missed out because they either chose not to attend or did not wear the required wedding clothes. The King was not unsuccessful.

So, may I ask, if you found yourself ejected from a party for not wearing the correct attire, and you wanted in, what would you do?

 

[John Mullally]

So, may I ask, if you found yourself ejected from a party for not wearing the correct attire, and you wanted in, what would you do?

Prepare ahead of time (dressed in the right attire). Similar story to another parable about the kingdom of heaven - the 5 wise virgins brought enough oil for their lamps (in Matthew 25).

 

[Saint Steven]

Prepare ahead of time (dressed in the right attire). Similar story to another parable about the kingdom of heaven - the 5 wise virgins brought enough oil for their lamps (in Matthew 25).

That doesn't answer the question posed. (see below)
But I suppose you think nothing could be done at that point.
What if there was a misunderstanding somewhere and you were put out for some reason? Then what?

It seems that one of the points Jesus is trying to make with the two parables in question, is that some think they will be accepted (like you) but they will not. Correct?

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
So, may I ask, if you found yourself ejected from a party for not wearing the correct attire, and you wanted in, what would you do?

 

[John Mullally]

That doesn't answer the question posed. (see below)
But I suppose you think nothing could be done at that point.
What if there was a misunderstanding somewhere and you were put out for some reason? Then what?

It seems that one of the points Jesus is trying to make with the two parables in question, is that some think they will be accepted (like you) but they will not. Correct?

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
So, may I ask, if you found yourself ejected from a party for not wearing the correct attire, and you wanted in, what would you do?

 

[John Mullally]

is that some think they will be accepted (like you) but they will not. Correct?

I agree that it dangerous to presume anything when it comes to eternity - but to go by the scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.​

The injection of the (like you) phrase can easily be taken personally - as it looks to be inserted to personally assert something.

 

[Saint Steven]

The injection of the (like you) phrase can easily be taken personally - as it looks to be inserted to personally assert something.

If I added the parenthetical after "but they will not."
That would have sent a different message. (what you are hinting at)
You do think you will be accepted, correct?

Saint Steven said: ↑
is that some think they will be accepted (like you) but they will not. Correct?

 

[Saint Steven]

I agree that it dangerous to presume anything when it comes to eternity - but to go by the scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

How is this measured?
What do you need to find in your examination of yourself to KNOW that "you are in the faith." ?
It seems that some of those the Apostle was writing to were "disqualified."

As a Charismatic, I imagine you would say that spiritual discernment will tell you. What about non-Charismatics? What will tell them?

 

[John Mullally]

You do think you will be accepted, correct?

Correct

1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Correct

Thanks. Good to hear.
What is your reaction to the topic title?

Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

 

[John Mullally]

How is this measured?
What do you need to find in your examination of yourself to KNOW that "you are in the faith." ?
It seems that some of those the Apostle was writing to were "disqualified."

As a Charismatic, I imagine you would say that spiritual discernment will tell you. What about non-Charismatics? What will tell them?

Read the bible, especially Acts and the Epistles. Listen to your gut and your conscience and make adjustments. Certainly if you find yourself in violation of 1 Cor 6:9-11 or Revelation 21:8, repent quickly.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Prepare ahead of time (dressed in the right attire). Similar story to another parable about the kingdom of heaven - the 5 wise virgins brought enough oil for their lamps (in Matthew 25).

Yes sir, prevention is indeed better than cure.

As you may have surmised by my question, I believe the ejected wedding guest (although bound hand and foot), still has hope (although he may not yet know it). After the weeping and gnashing of teeth (the tribulation), he'll cry out for God's Salvation in his predicament (might take him an aeon), and Christ will be faithful to liberate him (from Hades, bondage in darkness, by removing unbelief) and cleanse him (wash his apparel in the blood of the Lamb), whereupon receiving new life by the baptism of fire and spirit, and overcoming indwelling sin (another aeon or two, possibly, could be painful), saved as by fire, plucked from the fire of holy theion, repentant, as a new man in Christ, name now on the guest list (the Book of Life), he may re-enter Heaven through the ever-open Pearly Gates (see Revelation 21:25; unlike the locked doors found by the unwise virgins).

I'd suggest the virgins in that parable are all believers, whereas the attendees at the wedding include seekers, sceptics and freeloaders. As a universalist, I believe scripture teaches that Jesus saves the whole world from perishing, not condemning the unbelievers and sinners to eternal punishment, but to purification/ sanctification unto salvation for the glory of God.

 

[Saint Steven]

The injection of the (like you) phrase can easily be taken personally - as it looks to be inserted to personally assert something.

Yes, ascertaining the insertion of assertions can be a bit disconcerting. - lol

 

[Hmm]

whereas the attendees at the wedding include seekers, sceptics and freeloaders

Yes. The first part in bold indicates that the guests were literally rounded up from the streets, whether good or bad:

"Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but the ones who had been invited were not worthy. So go into the main streets and invite everyone you find to the wedding banquet.' And those slaves went out into the streets and gathered all they found, both bad and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the wedding guests, he saw a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without 'wedding clothes'?' But he had nothing to say. Then the king said to his attendants, 'Tie him up hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!' For many are called, but few are chosen."

The other part I bolded says that "wedding clothes' were also a requirement.

So I read this as saying that the invite/calling goes out to everyone but being let into the wedding involves the person's willingness to dress the part.

But, I don't see any support here for eternal torture. This is a wedding and weddings don't go on forever, even though some may appear to. To go from being refused admission to the wedding to being consigned to eternal torture is quite a leap.

The key thing to me in the parable is that a marriage remains long after the wedding and even those who didn't make it into the celebration still have plenty of time to get to know the bride and groom.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

So I read this as saying that the invite/calling goes out to everyone but being let into the wedding involves the person's willingness to dress the part.

Presumably the dress code was on the invite.

But, I don't see any support here for eternal torture. This is a wedding and weddings don't go on forever, even though some may appear to. To go from being refused admission to the wedding to being consigned to eternal torture is quite a leap.

The closest it gets is. 'Tie him up hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!' For many are called, but few are chosen.

Being bound would prevent the ejectee from simply going to the car for a change of apparel and returning to the wedding. And it seems only a few are ultimately correctly attired. It's doubtless a highly regrettable situation for which the many would require outside help - from the inside.

The key thing to me in the parable is that a marriage remains long after the wedding and even those who didn't make it into the celebration still have plenty of time to get to know the bride and groom.

Agreed, there are many unanswered questions - eg how long does the wedding feast last, where's the reception at, and who spiked the punch? Just joking, but seriously this is a classic ECT assumption - every time words like 'outer darkness', 'Gehenna', 'Hades' and 'destruction' are mentioned, we're suddenly off to the torture bbq pit forever. It's like fire and brimstone bingo.

 

[Hmm]

Just joking, but seriously this is a classic ECT assumption - every time words like 'outer darkness', 'Gehenna', 'Hades' and 'destruction' are mentioned, we're suddenly off to the torture bbq pit forever. It's like fire and brimstone bingo.

Yes, Team Hell does seem to have a Pavlov's dog's response to these words. - any mention of punishment is automatically assumed to mean eternal torture. Could that possibly be because ECT is an indoctrinated belief?

"Pavlov?", I hear you ask, "That rings a bell!".

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, Team Hell does seem to have a Pavlov's dog's response to these words. - any mention of punishment is automatically assumed to mean eternal torture. Could that possibly be because ECT is an indoctrinated belief?

"Pavlov?", I hear you ask, "That rings a bell!".

Garbage in...garbage out. I expect team "hell" to throw it back at us, but I smile, knowing that most on this side of the question have studied their way out of ECT indoctrination.