Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Hmm]

Right. He succeeded. Which makes Him the Savior of the world.

Just to be clear, I wasn't whether he succeeded. I believe he did.
However there are many on the forum that speak as if he didn't.

Yes, if unredeemed evil and suffering exist forever as postulated by ECT then Christ did fail to be the Saviour of the world and to be 'all in all' (not SOME in SOME) as He declared He would be. I don't see how any other conclusion could be drawn.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, if unredeemed evil and suffering exist forever as postulated by ECT then Christ did fail to be the Saviour of the world and to be 'all in all' (not SOME in SOME) as He declared He would be. I don't see how any other conclusion could be drawn.

Yes. The other side of the discussion claims it was only an offer of salvation, not salvation for all. But this claim can only be made by imposing a preconception on the text. Certainly not what it plainly says.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes. The other side of the discussion claims it was only an offer of salvation, not salvation for all. But this claim can only be made by imposing a preconception on the text. Certainly not what it plainly says.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

If I was sent to the grocer to buy 10 pounds of potatoes but only returned with 2 pounds, did I succeed or fail? (not rocket science)

 

[Hmm]

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

And most people, whether Christian or not, reject that Christ. It's a good thing that UR is true!

 

[Saint Steven]

It's a good thing UR is true!

Otherwise they would be toast. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

And most people, whether Christian or not, reject that Christ. It's a good thing that UR is true!

Like your previous VERY successful topic titled: "... What's Not to Like?"

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The only mental illness I see here is unbelief.

Unbelief that Jesus can or will put all things under his feet? Or unbelief that God will torture the many forever?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes. The other side of the discussion claims it was only an offer of salvation, not salvation for all. But this claim can only be made by imposing a preconception on the text. Certainly not what it plainly says.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Like we all got the offer to fall in Adam. 'Thanks, but I'll pass.'

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes it is good news to procla to all people that they can lay aside their burdens of a sinful life and receive the glorious salvation that come through Christ. The realization that we are lost people is part of the gospel. Lost and without hope. Just think of all the burdens that out sin brings upon us. We are slaves to it. We cannot get to God on our own and be free of it and the consequences of it without Christ. Our hearts are as black as coal. But Jesus came to provide a way out. If we just believe in him we no longer are condemned by are sin. That IS the good news. But we have to BELIEVE. Its a choice.

Agreed, but you can't explain colour to a blind man. The veil must be lifted, hence Revelation. The belief only comes after the obstacles to belief are removed, mostly false pride and ignorance.

Your doctrine provides the pathway to the Lake of Fire. For they will be judged for their sin and cast into the Lake of Fire believing they could reject Christ and his sacrifice and still be saved. Your doctrine sounds nice now. But in the day of judgement it will fail them and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The good news is they don't have to face that outcome.

And I would suggest that telling folks who are lost and hopeless that they'd better believe or they'll go to hell forever is just doubling down on stupidity.

If you are in a train that is hurtling down a track that's about to go off a bridge, it is NOT good news to tell people they will be fine. Not to worry. It's all good. The bridge isn't really out. It might settle their souls for now, but when the train comes to the end of the track and goes off the cliff it will be too late.

That's right, but the gospel doesn't need to contrive some childish horror like 'the sky is falling'. It is simply good news that if they turn to God their life will have meaning, that Jesus can put them right and heal their pain.

But the real good news is there is another track that leads to safety that has been laid for them to take if they just flip the switch and take the other track they will find peace and safety. That's the good news. You are giving them false hope.

Love is what UR promotes, not craven terror.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

None of the resurrection scriptures say all will be saved. Not one of them. Why do you continue to ignore this?

They say some will be resurrected unto life, others unto judgement. The judgement is that they're afflicted by sin and unbelief, and need to be delivered. God's judgements save, His justice is about setting right, not getting even.

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - American Standard Version

Note that Paul says those IN Jesus are resurrected. The dead IN CHRIST are resurrected. If we believe that Jesus died and rose again. Those are the ones that go to be with him.

All those raised from death and Hades to be thrown into the LoF at the GWT judgment. These are the nations who are resurrected but still need to overcome their unbelief so they can repent, as shown in Rev 21:24-26 and Rev 22:2. The Spirit and the Church (that's you and I) encourage them with promises of the free gift of eau de vie. (Rev 22:17)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It will lead to tragedy in the end.

Perhaps you haven't been following the last 1,500 years of world history under the burden of damnation eschatology. The church and the world are now in pandaemonium.

 

[rjs330]

Yes, if unredeemed evil and suffering exist forever as postulated by ECT then Christ did fail to be the Saviour of the world and to be 'all in all' (not SOME in SOME) as He declared He would be. I don't see how any other conclusion could be drawn.

The conclusion is easy. Christ died to provide a way for all. He succeeded in his mission. Each person just has to make the decision to access what Christ provided. And God made it easy to access.

 

[rjs330]

And most people, whether Christian or not, reject that Christ. It's a good thing that UR is true!

Another verse taken out of context to support something that it doesn't really support.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them.We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is begotten of God, and knoweth God.He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us:hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God. - 1 John 4:1-15 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4:1-15 - American Standard Version

It's the spirit of the anti-christ that leads to saying Jesus is not the Christ. Notice the verse right after the one you quoted. Whomever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God. All these verses speak of a worldly spirit and a Godly spirit. The worldly spirit is against Christ and will not confess him as the Christ the Son of God.

Look at what John says in the previous chapter.

Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this cause the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.And every one that hath this hope set on him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.And ye know that he was manifested to take away sins; and in him is no sin.Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous:he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - 1 John 3:1-10 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 3:1-10 - American Standard Version

Believers do not practice sin. The world does practice sin. There are children of God and children of the devil.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. But it is the CHILDREN OF GOD. The world does not know is because it does not know God. What happens to those that do not know God and are of the devil?

My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him:he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.Beloved, no new commandment write I unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning: the old commandment is the word which ye heard.Again, a new commandment write I unto you, which thing is true in him and in you; because the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shineth.He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in the darkness even until now.He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, even he that denieth the Father and the Son.Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that confesseth the Son hath the Father also. - 1 John 2:1-10,22-23 Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2:1-10, 1 John 2:22-23 - American Standard Version

These verses help clarify each other. Jesus provided a way for all sinners to be with God and Christ. But those that deny Christ are not with him or the father. And they are LIARS. What happens to them?

But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:8,27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:8, Revelation 21:27 - American Standard Version

 

[rjs330]

They say some will be resurrected unto life, others unto judgement. The judgement is that they're afflicted by sin and unbelief, and need to be delivered. God's judgements save, His justice is about setting right, not getting even.

Scripture support?

 

[misput]

What about Annias & Saffira, who took them out for one lie? And the many others the scriptures tell us about? Vengeance is mine says the Lord and that is in this life, no one has a clue what actually happens after death.
We know this by your own conversation.
A life of faith is better than a life of theology, especially of the proud.

 

[rjs330]

These are the nations who are resurrected but still need to overcome their unbelief so they can repent,

Scriptural support? Cause the verses you refer to don't say that.

And the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it.And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:24-27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:24-27 - American Standard Version

Only the ones written. It doesn't say anything about everyone that ever lived is written in there. The words are clear indication that only some are written. Not everyone. There are still those that don't get in. Tie this to

And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:14-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:14-15 - American Standard Version

And it's clear the Lambs book is checked at this time. If you are not in it you are cast into the Lake of Fire. There NO indication that it's for purging you of sin so you can repent. Nothing in these verses say or indicate that.

 

[rjs330]

And I would suggest that telling folks who are lost and hopeless that they'd better believe or they'll go to hell forever is just doubling down on stupidity.

Let's see what Jesus said.

Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. - Matthew 25:44-46 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:44-46 - American Standard Version

And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear. - Matthew 13:37-43 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:37-43 - American Standard Version

And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life halt, rather than having thy two feet to be cast into hell.And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell;where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. - Mark 9:43,45,47-48 Bible Gateway passage: Mark 9:43, Mark 9:45, Mark 9:47-48 - American Standard Version

Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day:and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores,and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table; yea, even the dogs came and licked his sores.And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish.And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house;for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead. - Luke 16:19-31 Bible Gateway passage: Luke 16:19-31 - American Standard Version

It looks like Jesus wasn't concerned about speaking about it and giving warnings. These aren't the he only ones.

If UR is doctrinal Jesus wouldn't be saying anything like this. He'd be saying don't worry about what you do. You'll all be saved! Nothing you do matters!

But it's not what he said. Be more concerned about the one who can destroy your body AND soul in hell. That sounds kind of scary.

 

[rjs330]

Perhaps you haven't been following the last 1,500 years of world history under the burden of damnation eschatology. The church and the world are now in pandaemonium.

Your not surprised are you? The Bible says that will happen. It's certainly not because of people preaching that you need to believe to b saved.

But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good,traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts,ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth; men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be evident unto all men, as theirs also came to be.But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. - 2 Timothy 3:1-9,13 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 2 Timothy 3:13 - American Standard Version

Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints.For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.Woe unto them! for they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved for ever.And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their lusts (and their mouth speaketh great swelling words ), showing respect of persons for the sake of advantage. - Jude 1:3-4,7,11-16 Bible Gateway passage: Jude 3-4, Jude 7, Jude 11-16 - American Standard Version

In fact Jesus told us to expect hatred from the world because they hated Him and reflected him, so we too shall be rejected.

You must be born again to receive salvation. And there is no offer to those who have died to be born again.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Scripture support?

Two Resurrections
Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28-29)

The first and second resurrections are in Revelation 20:4-5, and separated by the 1,000 years.

Judgment unto salvation
Jesus' mission and entire ministry reveals God's modus operandi, including:
Luke 4:14-21
John 3:16-21
John 7:24
Miracles of healing of the lepers, the blind man, and many many more.
Jesus is all salvation and healing. Even the Pharisees get correction (often through burning shame and humiliation).
See the son, see the Father.

 

[Hmm]

Watching the news about the war in Ukraine made me think about how Christian universalists and Infernalists think about Putin. As we all to often hear on these threads, they accuse universalists of being sentimental because they believe that God will one day restore even Putin to the person he should be. But it's actually the other way round. Universalism does say that Putin types will eventually be reconciled to God,. because however we may view them, God sees them as His children, but this.will only be after a.process of purification that would probably.be very painful and last for an age.

Team Hell, in contrast, believes that Putin needs only to repent on his death bed and that's it! How much more sentimental can you be?!