Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Saint Steven]

So there's standards! Sorry, but from what I've seen it's pretty hard to maintain a 'fitting and orderly' approach to tongues, in my limited experience it seems to almost invariably devolve into a cringey mess of phoney and demonic-sounding gobbledegook. It could just be due to my poverty of faith.

I can't speak for all the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches, but the ones that I attend are pretty tame compared to the sort you have mentioned.

There was a new young couple attending my previous church that asked me quietly, "So, do you guys speak in tongues around here?" - lol

I assured him that we did.

And frankly, if the NT Corinthian church had not been "swinging from the chandeliers", we wouldn't have 1 Cor.12-14 as a guide.

Luke 3:16 NIV
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:4-5 NIV
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, would you say that when Revelation talks about a "new heaven and a new earth" that this world itself is transformed, as well as the entire physical universe I guess? So heaven isn't a spiritual realm somewhere up there in the clouds that some lucky few are beamed up to. That would imply that everything, all animals and trees etc as well as people, are recreated anew, which makes sense to me. God saw that all of His original creation was good and so would want to restore everything in it.

I agree.
I think the natural realm is a corrupted version of the supernatural realm.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, would you say that when Revelation talks about a "new heaven and a new earth" that this world itself is transformed, as well as the entire physical universe I guess? So heaven isn't a spiritual realm somewhere up there in the clouds that some lucky few are beamed up to. That would imply that everything, all animals and trees etc as well as people, are recreated anew, which makes sense to me. God saw that all of His original creation was good and so would want to restore everything in it.

That's right, creation groans...birth pangs...Behold I am making all things new...pouring out my Spirit on all flesh...the totality restored to God's image.

However, the Biblical world is a far cry from the fantasy 'universe' in which we're indoctrinated under the guise of 'modern science'. The world as described in the Bible, and the physical world we actually inhabit, consists of a flat motionless earth beneath a firmament within which the sun, moon and stars move. There is no scriptural or scientific evidence of earth's motion in space or its presumed curvature, and every experiment ever diligently done in order to demonstrate the predicted motion or curvature has failed. God greatly blesses those who accept this truth.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I can't speak for all the Charismatic/Pentecostal churches, but the ones that I attend are pretty tame compared to the sort you have mentioned.

There was a new young couple attending my previous church that asked me quietly, "So, do you guys speak in tongues around here?" - lol

I assured him that we did.

And frankly, if the NT Corinthian church had not been "swinging from the chandeliers", we wouldn't have 1 Cor.12-14 as a guide.

Luke 3:16 NIV
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:4-5 NIV
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Good to hear that your churches can (if I understand correctly) manage speaking in tongues in a dignified manner. However, I'd be a little concerned that the 'baptism of fire and the HS' scriptures are used in relation to tongues - these are scriptures about being born again, are they not, rather than entering some kind of transient ecstatic or frenetic possessed state...?

 

[Saint Steven]

Good to hear that your churches can (if I understand correctly) manage speaking in tongues in a dignified manner. However, I'd be a little concerned that the 'baptism of fire and the HS' scriptures are used in relation to tongues - these are scriptures about being born again, are they not, rather than entering some kind of transient ecstatic or frenetic possessed state...?

It's not limited to tongues. It includes all the manifestations (gifts) of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle informs us that the church (like a human body) is incomplete without all of them. Many parts/one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:15)

1 Corinthians 12:11-14 NIV
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It's not limited to tongues. It includes all the manifestations (gifts) of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle informs us that the church (like a human body) is incomplete without all of them. Many parts/one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:15)

1 Corinthians 12:11-14 NIV
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

I'm happy to not be gifted with the tongues. The body of Christ is a beautiful image and true, and I pray that all believers of whatever creed or denomination may be unified in Spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

Good to hear that your churches can (if I understand correctly) manage speaking in tongues in a dignified manner. However, I'd be a little concerned that the 'baptism of fire and the HS' scriptures are used in relation to tongues - these are scriptures about being born again, are they not, rather than entering some kind of transient ecstatic or frenetic possessed state...?

Obviously, some get carried away with tongues and causes some culture shock for visitors. This is unfortunate.

It has been a very worthwhile experience for me to seek these things out. I am much more sensitive to the Holy Spirit because of it.

Unfortunately, there is very little instruction about these things in scripture. But if you know what to look for you can see it all through the book of the Acts of the Apostles.

The Holy Spirit is rather unpredictable. Compare the accounts in Acts about Pentecost, Samaria, Ephesus and the house of Cornelius. Physical evidence of the filling of the Spirit is witnessed in every case. And it isn't only tongues. See below.

- At Pentecost the Spirit came with water baptism. (after the outpouring)
- In Samaria the baptized believers needed the Apostles to lay hands on them. There was no evidence (tongues) with water baptism alone.
- In Ephesus the Apostle Paul saw no evidence of the Holy Spirit in these disciples of John the Baptist. He baptized them in Jesus' name and then laid hands on them to receive the Spirit.
- At the house of Cornelius the gentiles (say what?) began speaking in tongues and praising God while Peter was still preaching. Peter ordered that they be water baptized, since they received the Spirit IN THE SAME WAY that the Jews had.

 

[Andrewn]

As I understand it, the Apostle Paul only criticized congregational prophetic tongues when not accompanied by an interpretation.

Exactly. And since my experience regarding the offered interpretation, in so many churches over decades, is similar to the experience that @Hmm described in message #1440, I stand by my conclusion that speaking in tongues should not be practiced in public.

You can add a caveat about having the interpretation yourself or knowing that there is an interpreter present who knows that particular language / tongue.

What Is the Gift of Interpretation of Tongues? by Don Stewart

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm happy to not be gifted with the tongues.

I'd say you would need to explore the other four kinds of tongues to rule out the gift of tongues. (Prophetic tongues addressed to the whole congregation, preferably with interpretation)

Surrender your most unruly member, the tongue. (James 3:8)

I'm mostly yanking your chain. There is something there for those so inclined.

 

[Saint Steven]

Exactly. And since my experience regarding the offered interpretation, in so many churches over decades, is similar to the experience that @Hmm described in message #1440, I stand by my conclusion that speaking in tongues should not be practiced in public.

You can add a caveat about having the interpretation yourself or knowing that there is an interpreter present who knows that particular language / tongue.

What Is the Gift of Interpretation of Tongues? by Don Stewart


I suggest that you would be happier if you had the gift of tongues.

I love it when fine folks that don't speak in tongues want to instruct those who do. - lol

Like me telling you what I think is wrong with a liturgical style of worship. It would be very ignorant for me to do so.

 

[Saint Steven]

I suggest that you would be happier if you had the gift of tongues.

Wow. I didn't see that coming. - lol

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
I'm happy to not be gifted with the tongues.

 

[Andrewn]

I love it when fine folks that don't speak in tongues want to instruct those who do. - lol

Like me telling you what I think is wrong with a liturgical style of worship. It would be very ignorant for me to do so.

Of course, I'm not as saintly as you are.

You:

Me:

 

[rjs330]

It's another example of Team Hell believing ALL means ALL in relation to sin but SOME not in relation to salvation.

Which is a very odd thing to do - claiming that the Bible is inerrant yet at the same time claiming that it doesn’t mean what it says. This is cognitive dissonance and comes from having learnt to read the Bible not for comprehension but in order to prop up the theology of ECT. This can be very harmful as we can see from the testimony people who have managed, often with great difficulty and personal cost such as rejection from their church and friends, to extricate themselves from belief in this doctrine.

This is another case of scripture out of context. One, this verse doesn't say all. But secondly, there is no unbelievers here.

And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it:and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:6-8,25-27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:6-8, Revelation 21:25-27 - American Standard Version

The unbeliever is already gone to the lake of fire. This passage refers to what heaven is like.

Note what is said.

And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie. - Revelation 22:1-6,13-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 22:1-6, Revelation 22:13-15 - American Standard Version

See how it is those that are servants of God that are in. Those that have washed their robes in blood. THEY have the right to be there.

There are those that don't and are left out.

We are talking about those who are in the Lands book and those that are not. None of us deserve to be there. We are only there because we have washed our robes in blood. We are saved because Jesus poured his blood on us when we chose to humble ourselves before him and be born again. It is not of works. It is out of a realization we are lost without him. I for one am so grateful to him for saving me. Even now I am awed by his grace to me. I trust in Him for my salvation, not any of my works.

That's the difference between all believers and the unbelievers. They are rejecting Christ and are too proud and too tied to their own darkness.

 

[rjs330]

Breaks my heart to think about the damage this false and broken view of God has wrought on mankind. Still, the devil is very adept at exploiting our indwelling sins, fears etc. I'm still amazed that the eschatological debate never really appears to have taken centre stage in the patristics. It seems to me that an 'allowance' was left for ECT for human reasons that appeared laudable, and still do to many today, but which allowed the devil to get his foothold, and from there to attempt to anathematise UR.

I fear more the damage UR is doing. Because it is telling people you don't need salvation, because you are already saved. So, you can totally reject Christ and it's okay. There is no need to preach the gospel because it doesn't matter. And since everyone is saved, but just don't know it yet, there no reason to proclaim the good news. Because people don't have to believe in it.

People are being saved everyday because there are believers who are telling people they need the Lord because their sins have separated them from God and there is no way back to him with out repentance and being born again.

You must be born again. And that cannot happen after you are dead.

I still haven't seen one scripture that proclaims there will be a chance at being born again after we die.

 

[DamianWarS]

Jesus was sent for a specific purpose. Did he succeed, or fail?

is that rhetorical?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And since everyone is saved, but just don't know it yet, there no reason to proclaim the good news.

That is the good news, that Jesus has done it, that God is for us and not against us. What a relief, what a wonderful thing!

Is it good news to tell folks, 'Well there's an eternity of punishment to look forward to, but if you believe in Jesus, you won't go there?' Surely you can see that's nasty and contrived. How can it possibly be good news to be told that some or many of your departed loved ones are burning in hell? It's actually the worst news ever, on top of the burdens folks have to carry in this world. Jesus' yoke is light, 'Come to me all ye who are heavy laden and I shall give ye rest.'

People are being saved everyday because there are believers who are telling people they need the Lord because their sins have separated them from God and there is no way back to him with out repentance and being born again.

You must be born again. And that cannot happen after you are dead.

But we don't rebirth ourselves, folks get born again by submitting to Christ, looking to Christ, 'giving it up' for Jesus, opening the heart and making some confession. Then the HS gives the increase. It's hard for me to see how this state of submission can occur under threat, which just creates undue pressure and takes away the sincerity of confession. Full and voluntary confession is what is needed.

UR supports the idea that we walk the narrow path primarily out of wanting to please God in true love, rather than the terror of unspeakable consequences if we don't. The prospect of shame and waste of God's gifts is of course also a motivator. Unbelievers are supposed to see how we live and recognise the light of love and truth in our lives, a City on a Hill cannot be hid...

I still haven't seen one scripture that proclaims there will be a chance at being born again after we die.

All the resurrection scriptures. What would be the point in Jesus using his keys to raise the dead, just so God can consign them to eternal hell? That would be infinitely unjust and absurdly evil.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'd say you would need to explore the other four kinds of tongues to rule out the gift of tongues. (Prophetic tongues addressed to the whole congregation, preferably with interpretation)

Surrender your most unruly member, the tongue. (James 3:8)

I'm mostly yanking your chain. There is something there for those so inclined.

Lol, no doubt there is. Still, what could be a better use of the tongue than proclaiming the gospel? I'd rather engage in preaching, reading scripture, liturgy, worship or prayer than the 'five-edged sword' of who-knows-what-that-was. Still, I won't even be allowed in to listen to tongues in a hurry without a vaccination card.

 

[Hmm]

UR supports the idea that we walk the narrow path primarily out of wanting to please God in true love, rather than the terror of unspeakable consequences if we don't.

.
Yes, that's surely better than being driven by fear of an eternal hell. What would God prefer we do?

 

[misput]

.
Yes, that's surely better than being driven by fear of an eternal hell. What would God prefer we do?

"Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" Just maybe Father knows best------you recon?

 

[misput]

The main reason for the law is to show us what a miserable wretch we are so we will hopefully flee as though our tails were on fire to His forgiveness, mercy, grace and love. How presumptuous of us to think we know better than God how to win souls.