Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Andrewn]

I see the scenario differently I think in that I don't see any torment because there is no tormenter. God is always the prodigal's father, desperately waiting for his child to realise what it is that will make him truly happy and then come home. The prodigal's son did truly suffer for sure but that wasn't through torment byhis father - for some reason it was necessary and we don't really know why. And this suffering did have an end and there was a joyous ending.

This is all fine. One is tormented by his own sin or by his remorse or by a law of cause and effect or by the presence of the loving God. God is not a tormenter. But there is torment anyway for one reason or another. For the purpose of correction, but there is still torment. I'm trying to look at the big picture. And in DeRose's scenario, this torment is for a very long time. True, it is not forever, but it is almost forever.

Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 30 For we know the one who has said, Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge his people. 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Is there not a qualitative difference between endless and purposeless suffering by a wrathful tormenter as advocated by Team Hell and the educational and redemptive suffering that causes so much pain to the loving father as is taught in the parable of the prodigal son?

Yes, there is a difference. This is why I do not think that ECT is likely.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is all fine. One is tormented by his own sin or by his remorse or by a law of cause and effect or by the presence of the loving God. God is not a tormenter. But there is torment anyway for one reason or another. For the purpose of correction, but there is still torment. I'm trying to look at the big picture. And in DeRose's scenario, this torment is for a very long time. True, it is not forever, but it is almost forever.

I think that one of the biggest time aspects of the restoration/correction is that it will be one individual at a time while everyone else witnesses it. (and the nations will be judged as well)

Luke 12:2-3 NIV
There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

1 Corinthians 3:13 NIV
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

Hebrews 12:1 NIV
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

 

[Hmm]

This is all fine. One is tormented by his own sin or by his remorse or by a law of cause and effect or by the presence of the loving God. God is not a tormenter. But there is torment anyway for one reason or another. For the purpose of correction, but there is still torment. I'm trying to look at the big picture. And in DeRose's scenario, this torment is for a very long time. True, it is not forever, but it is almost forever.

I think there will be a lot of mental pain for some in learning how much we hurt people by our actions in this life. Imagine having the blood of Putin on your hands and realising that he was wrong to have caused so many deaths. And it may well take an age for him to get to that point. But however long that is, it is still nothing compared to eternity and when he finally sees things clearly as scripture says we all will, in the universalist view, then he will be glad of the correction process that he underwent however long and difficult it may have been. I suppose the question is, can someone be so irredeemably evil that God can never win through to them even with an eternity in which to operate in so that they willingly turn towards Him? The many examples of people being transformed in this life suggests that the answer to this is 'no'.

 

[Andrewn]

I think that one of the biggest time aspects of the restoration/correction is that it will be one individual at a time while everyone else witnesses it.

It can take forever to watch every single person judged one at a time .

 

[Andrewn]

I suppose the question is, can someone be so irredeemably evil that God can never win through to them even with an eternity in which to operate in so that they willingly turn towards Him? The many examples of people being transformed in this life suggests that the answer to this is 'no'.

NT Wright speculates that some people lose their humanity. His comment brings to mind a picture of reincarnation where some may become animals or insects . Or perhaps they become demons like you suggested in a previous message.

 

[Hmm]

NT Wright speculates that some people lose their humanity. His comment brings to mind a picture of reincarnation where some may become animals or insects . Or perhaps they become demons like you suggested in a previous message.

I'm sure I never suggested that because I don't believe it! I don't think any created being can change the fundamental essence of what it is. If we can turn ourselves into demons by our behaviour then we are effectively creating a new creature ourselves and that isn't possible. Only God can create things, we can only distort things, so we can distort our humanity or the image of God in us so much that it's barely recognisable but I believe we can't ever fully eradicate that image. So I think Wright is wrong too - if God created us as humans, nothing we can do can make us lose that humanity completely.

I guess God could turn us into insects in the next life if He wanted too and there is a logic in the idea of reincarnation (all moral action has an effect on us and if death were the end then some of our moral action would not have an effect, so reincarnation is a possible solution to that but I prefer the correction process after death soln. of Christianity)

 

[misput]

I think that one of the biggest time aspects of the restoration/correction is that it will be one individual at a time while everyone else witnesses it. (and the nations will be judged as well)

Luke 12:2-3 NIV
There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

1 Corinthians 3:13 NIV
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

Hebrews 12:1 NIV
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Now that is a heavenly scene, spending a few thousand years in judgement/court witnessing the exposure of everyone's sin.

 

[misput]

This is all fine. One is tormented by his own sin or by his remorse or by a law of cause and effect or by the presence of the loving God. God is not a tormenter. But there is torment anyway for one reason or another. For the purpose of correction, but there is still torment. I'm trying to look at the big picture. And in DeRose's scenario, this torment is for a very long time. True, it is not forever, but it is almost forever.

Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. 30 For we know the one who has said, Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge his people. 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Yes, there is a difference. This is why I do not think that ECT is likely.

A lifetime is a type of forever. Are you tormented by the sins of your life even though you know they are forgiven? Be honest now.

 

[Andrewn]

Now that is a heavenly scene, spending a few thousand years in judgement/court witnessing the exposure of everyone's sin.

Personally, I don't want to see anyone's sin review. It's hard enough to review my own. Lord have mercy.

A lifetime is a type of forever. Are you tormented by the sins of your life even though you know they are forgiven? Be honest now.

No, I'm not, thanks to the blood of Jesus. There is certainly remorse for things done and for things that were left undone, love that was not sufficiently expressed.

 

[misput]

Personally, I don't want to see anyone's sin review. It's hard enough to review my own. Lord have mercy.


No, I'm not, thanks to the blood of Jesus. There is certainly remorse for things done and for things that were left undone, love that was not sufficiently expressed.

Isn't remorse a form of torment? Doesn't it have a refining effect on us?
Definition of remorse
1 : a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs : self-reproach

 

[Saint Steven]

It can take forever to watch every single person judged one at a time .

Agreed.
The nations as well. The Tree of Life is for the healing of the nations.
Do we suppose it is only for SOME nations? And only SOME of the peoples?
Or is it a healing of ALL the nations? After the judgment, of course. (then mercy)

Revelation 22:2 NIV
down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

 

[Hmm]

Agreed.
The nations as well. The Tree of Life is for the healing of the nations.
Do we suppose it is only for SOME nations? And only SOME of the peoples?
Or is it a healing of ALL the nations? After the judgment, of course. (then mercy)

Revelation 22:2 NIV
down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

It's another example of Team Hell believing ALL means ALL in relation to sin but SOME not in relation to salvation.

Which is a very odd thing to do - claiming that the Bible is inerrant yet at the same time claiming that it doesn’t mean what it says. This is cognitive dissonance and comes from having learnt to read the Bible not for comprehension but in order to prop up the theology of ECT. This can be very harmful as we can see from the testimony people who have managed, often with great difficulty and personal cost such as rejection from their church and friends, to extricate themselves from belief in this doctrine.

 

[misput]

It's another example of Team Hell believing ALL means ALL in relation to sin but SOME not in relation to salvation.

Which is a very odd thing to do - claiming that the Bible is inerrant yet at the same time claiming that it doesn’t mean what it says. This is cognitive dissonance and comes from having learnt to read the Bible not for comprehension but in order to prop up the theology of ECT. This can be very harmful as we can see from the testimony people who have managed, often with great difficulty and personal cost such as rejection from their church and friends, to extricate themselves from belief in this doctrine.

This is no worse or better than intelligent christian people who are unable to differentiate between literal and figurative, metaphor, etc. which you guys are exhibiting above.

 

[Hmm]

This is no worse or better than intelligent christian people who are unable to differentiate between literal and figurative, metaphor, etc. which you guys are exhibiting above.

Really? Care to give an example that supports that assertion? I'd be interested in the feedback if you can, but not if you can't.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Really? Care to give an example that supports that assertion? I'd be interested in the feedback if you can, but not if you can't.

Careful, you might get hot coals poured on your head!

 

[Hmm]

Careful, you might get hot coals poured on your head!

That seems to be the case as there's been no response to my request so far. All (or should that be SOME?) very strange.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That seems to be the case as there's been no response to my request so far. All (or should that be SOME?) very strange.

It does seem to be a big bone of contention, particularly the nature of divine fire. Lake of fire: purifying laver or flame-grilled hot-top?

Perhaps the deeper knee-jerk against an offence of UR is the unconscious idea that God is dishonoured and not appropriately feared if one doesn't (a) locate and telescope a threatening-sounding verse, (b) magnify and amplify its threatening aspect ad absurdum.

Anything less than 'fire and brimstone' preaching on Matthew 7:26, Matthew 25:46, Revelation 21:8, Hebrews 10:26-27 and of course the handful of disparate 'Gehenna' scriptures is disrespecting God's power and might, seems to be the concern...?

 

[Hmm]

It does seem to be a big bone of contention, particularly the nature of divine fire. Lake of fire: purifying laver or flame-grilled hot-top?

Perhaps the deeper knee-jerk against an offence of UR is the unconscious idea that God is dishonoured and not appropriately feared if one doesn't (a) locate and telescope a threatening-sounding verse, (b) magnify and amplify its threatening aspect ad absurdum.

Anything less than 'fire and brimstone' preaching on Matthew 7:26, Matthew 25:46, Revelation 21:8, Hebrews 10:26-27 and of course the handful of disparate 'Gehenna' scriptures is disrespecting God's power and might, seems to be the concern...?

Good analysis. The belief in God as Torturer is very silly and it's cause I think be summed up in one word: tradition.

It’s very hard to believe you know the truth and to then be humble enough to reconsider what you’ve believed your whole life. What your parents believe. What their parents believe.
It’s so difficult, in fact, that I believe only the Holy Spirit can awaken someone to this. No amount of reasoning with someone who believes God IOW Christ is a torture will get ever them there. God illuminates us only when our hearts have been prepared for the truth embodied in the two great commandments to love* God and others.

* Not torture or torment

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Good analysis. The belief in God as Torturer is very silly and it's cause I think be summed up in one word: tradition.

It’s very hard to believe you know the truth and to then be humble enough to reconsider what you’ve believed your whole life. What your parents believe. What their parents believe.
It’s so difficult, in fact, that I believe only the Holy Spirit can awaken someone to this. No amount of reasoning with someone who believes God IOW Christ is a torture will get ever them there. God illuminates us only when our hearts have been prepared for the truth embodied in the two great commandments to love* God and others.

* Not torture or torment

Breaks my heart to think about the damage this false and broken view of God has wrought on mankind. Still, the devil is very adept at exploiting our indwelling sins, fears etc. I'm still amazed that the eschatological debate never really appears to have taken centre stage in the patristics. It seems to me that an 'allowance' was left for ECT for human reasons that appeared laudable, and still do to many today, but which allowed the devil to get his foothold, and from there to attempt to anathematise UR.

 

[Hmm]

Breaks my heart to think about the damage this false and broken view of God has wrought on mankind. Still, the devil is very adept at exploiting our indwelling sins, fears etc. I'm still amazed that the eschatological debate never really appears to have taken centre stage in the patristics. It seems to me that an 'allowance' was left for ECT for human reasons that appeared laudable, and still do to many today, but which allowed the devil to get his foothold, and from there to attempt to anathematise UR.

I agree. I wonder what the church would be like now if it had the courage to take the lead from modern scholarship and the great figures from the past, such as the "father of fathers" Gregory.of Nyssa, and finally dispose of the idea of God as Torturer as the ultimate blasphemy that it is. But politics and concern over jobs still carry the day it seems.