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SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

LoveGodsWord

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you made a number of mistatkes in your post
There was no mistakes in my post. Only scripture was provided showing what happens at the second coming.
Note: What happens at the second coming here.. This is not the 2nd coming. This is the Advent/Rapture. the part where you go to heaven did you even read my post.

No this is the second coming....

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 [13], But I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note the contexts...

  • Those who sleep in the Lord - 1 Thessalonians 4:13
  • When Jesus returns will be resurrected - 1 Thessalonians 4:14
  • We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (2nd coming) - 1 Thessalonians 4:15
  • Shall not prevent those who sleep in the Lord - 1 Thessalonians 4:15
  • For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven (2nd coming) - 1 Thessalonians 4:16
  • The shout of the chief of the angels with the trump of God - 1 Thessalonians 4:16
  • The dead in Christ will rise (1st resurrection) - 1 Thessalonians 4:16
  • Then we which are alive at the second coming are caught up together to be with the Lord - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Pretty clear to me if we just let the scriptures speak for themselves.
1. this is the Advent/Rapture not the 2nd coming
Your reading that into the scriptures.
2. Christ is bring something with him. those who have fallen asleep
That does not make any sense in context to the rest of the scriptures which state that those who sleep in Christ are raised from their death at the the second coming and the trump of God and we together with them will meet the Lord in the air. Look at the scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (to resurrection). It is the resurrection of those who sleep in Christ that Christ is bringing with him. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 shows that the resurrection takes place at the second coming. It is the "resurrection" that Christs brings with him not those who are dead to resurrect once he arrives. They are resurrected at the second coming with the trump of God and we which are here will caught up together with them to be with the Lord.
3. if this is the second coming then why are the dead still asleep, the should still be alive
They are dead (1 Thessalonians 4:13) which is the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.
4. The problem is that you say there is no Soul, so you have to pretend that is it the 2nd coming. Matt 10:28, 1.Thess 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, Genesis 35:18,
There is no problem. No one has said to you there is no soul. There is however a problem how people define what a soul is though.
1 Corinthians 15:35-58 5. We are taken to be with the lord in heaven. not on earth. this is the Advent/Rapture the part where we go to heaven. This is different then when he comes to rule the earth. that would make two 2nd coming's or it would make a 3rd coming.
No one said to you that we are not taken to heaven at the second coming. 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 only agrees with what was posted to you from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. You were right the first time. It is the second coming.

Take Care.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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LoveGodsWord

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I answered you, so why the need to repost the link? you are arguing now, please stop and address what I wrote.
No you didn't you ignored the content and the scriptures provided in the post you were quoting from that disagreed with you and provided your opinion which was not scripture.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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No you didn't you ignored the content and the scriptures provided in the post you were quoting from that disagreed with you and provided your opinion which was not scripture.
i did not ignore the context. you are just arguing now. I did not provided an opinion, I used the exact scripture that you used and pointed out that the scripture says "he is bringing with him the souls of those who have fallen asleep" Now notice the souls are with Christ and he is bring them with him. that is not my opinion that is scripture. you simply ignored it. according to sda theology they are in the grave and do not have a soul. this text contradicts that. the body is in the grave the soul is in heaven. that solves the problem. that is not an opinion that is what the texts says, the persons body lays asleep in the grave and the soul goes to heaven, christ brings it with him when he come raptures the church. the soul and body are reunited. sorry that is exactly what the text says.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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i did not ignore the context. you are just arguing now. I provided not opinion, I used the exact scripture that you used and pointed out that the scripture says "he is bringing with him the souls of those who have fallen asleep" Now notice the souls are with Christ and he is bring them with him. that is not my opinion that is scripture. you simply ignored it.
Actually I am not arguing. I have only provided scripture that disagrees with your opinion you posted earlier. If someone does not agree with you then do you consider that they are arguing with you? The scriptures provided earlier are Gods' Word not mine. The context provided from those scriptures disagree with your words that are not God's. Your just repeating yourself here and your claims here have already been addressed in the post content you ignored in post 262 linked. "Bring with him" is in context to His resurrection that takes place at the second coming. Already shown from the scripture contexts in the post you did not address.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
I see so for you sharing scripture with you that disagrees with you is arguing and name calling? I do not see it that way. I see it as telling the truth *John 17:17. Already addressed in post 262 linked. You just provided an opinion that is not scripture. Which are your words not Gods' Word while ignoring the post content of post 262 linked.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord

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you are playing games. I responded to that post. you are ignoring the fact that there is a soul. you ignore the texts provided for you Matt 10:28. 1Thess 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, Genesis 35:18, 1 Corinthians 15:35-58. Please address
You did not read post 262 linked did you. Where did I ever say to you there was no such thing as a soul? If I have never said there is no such thing as a soul, why are you pretending that I did? So what is your argument? You have none because we both agree that there is a soul. Just not what most people think a soul is according to the scriptures. There is not a single scripture you have provided here that disagrees with anything that I have been sharing with you from the scriptures.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
Well that is not true. Anyone reading post 262 linked that you ignored will see that. I never once said there is no such thing as a soul. Your trying to make arguments no one is arguing about. Take your time before posting and go and re-read the linked post. I am not going to address arguments no one is arguing about except you.

Take Care :wave:
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Well that is not true. Anyone reading post 262 linked that you ignored will see that. I never once said there is no such thing as a soul. Your trying to make arguments no one is arguing about. Take your time before posting and go and re-read the linked post. I am not going to address arguments no one is arguing about except you.

Take Care :wave:
you are not addressing the text please addresse the texts Matt 10:28. 1Thess 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, Genesis 35:18, 1 Corinthians 15:35-58
 
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BobRyan

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you are not addressing the text please addresse the texts Matt 10:28. 1Thess 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, Genesis 35:18, 1 Corinthians 15:35-58

Those texts teach us about the soul as a distinct entity apart from the body -- and as 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11 say -- it is in a dormant state when separated from the physical body. Instead of "nothing there to be 'dormant'" as I often say.

"spirit returns to God who gave it" and "body returns to the dust".

My question is - how does this come up on a topic about whether the earth is desolate during the 1000 years - with no humans on it?
 
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BobRyan

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you made a number of mistatkes in your post

Note: What happens at the second coming here.. This is not the 2nd coming. This is the Advent/Rapture. the part where you go to heaven did you even read my post.

1 Thessalonians 4:14:17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. this is the Advent/Rapture not the 2nd coming
2. Christ is bring something with him. those who have fallen asleep
3. if this is the second coming then why are the dead still asleep, the should still be alive
4. The problem is that you say there is no Soul, so you have to pretend that is it the 2nd coming. Matt 10:28, 1.Thess 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, Genesis 35:18,
1 Corinthians 15:35-58
5. We are taken to be with the lord in heaven. not on earth. this is the Advent/Rapture the part where we go to heaven. This is different then when he comes to rule the earth. that would make two 2nd coming's or it would make a 3rd coming.

ok - I have a comment and a question about that

1. Comment: the person you are addressing has not said "there is no soul" - rather he points to texts that address what does or does not happen when someone dies - but does not use the "term" soul when he references them...so you are inferring he does not believe in such a thing as a soul... which is difficult to prove given that his responses claim he does believe there is a soul. Do you mean to say "use the word soul as associated with your list of texts to help me understand how you make that connection between "soul" and the texts you are referencing".

2. Question --

In the timeline this thread speaks of - the appearing in Rev 19 is the point of the rapture which is why the "second coming" as defined by Christ ruling on Earth ... once again "on Earth" -- that we see in Rev 20 and 21 is not "the third coming".

It appears to me - that point 5 above makes that point as well.. unless I missed your meaning.

... I have been posting a few threads to the effect of what you are saying about the terms "appearing" vs "second coming" recently - but this is the first time I have seen someone else make that same case.

Have you seen anyone in your SAE group making this case before? Just curious about how many people are bringing this key point up.
 
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tall73

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Those texts teach us about the soul as a distinct entity apart from the body -- and as 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11 say -- it is in a dormant state when separated from the physical body. Instead of "nothing there to be 'dormant'" as I often say.

"spirit returns to God who gave it" and "body returns to the dust".

My question is - how does this come up on a topic about whether the earth is desolate during the 1000 years - with no humans on it?

Probably because Ice has a different timeline, seeing texts speaking of going to heaven happening before Rev. 19. So he doesn't see the notion of the saints being taken to heaven after the events of Rev. 19.
 
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BobRyan

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y
Note: What happens at the second coming here.. This is not the 2nd coming. This is the Advent/Rapture. the part where you go to heaven did you even read my post.

1 Thessalonians 4:14:17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. this is the Advent/Rapture not the 2nd coming
2. Christ is bring something with him. those who have fallen asleep
3. if this is the second coming then why are the dead still asleep, the should still be alive
4. ...
5. We are taken to be with the lord in heaven. not on earth. this is the Advent/Rapture the part where we go to heaven. This is different then when he comes to rule the earth. that would make two 2nd coming's or it would make a 3rd coming.

In the timeline this thread speaks of - the appearing in Rev 19 is the point of the rapture which is why the "second coming" as defined by Christ ruling on Earth ... once again "on Earth" -- that we see in Rev 20 and 21 is not "the third coming".

It appears to me - that point 5 above makes that point as well.. unless I missed your meaning.


2. Question -- ... I have been posting a few threads to the effect of what you are saying about the terms "appearing" vs "second coming" recently - but this is the first time I have seen someone else make that same case.

Have you seen anyone in your SAE group making this case before? Just curious about how many people are bringing this key point up.

Probably because Ice has a different timeline, seeing texts speaking of going to heaven happening before Rev. 19. So he doesn't see the notion of the saints being taken to heaven after the events of Rev. 19.

Apparently a disconnect
 
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ewq1938

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In the timeline this thread speaks of - the appearing in Rev 19 is the point of the rapture which is why the "second coming" as defined by Christ ruling on Earth ... once again "on Earth" -- that we see in Rev 20 and 21 is not "the third coming".


Correct me if I am wrong.

Isn't SDA doctrine that the first coming was his incarnation. Second coming he takes all the saved to heaven and isn't there a 3rd coming to dwell on the Earth for the eternity?
 
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BobRyan

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Correct me if I am wrong.

Isn't SDA doctrine that the first coming was his incarnation. Second coming he takes all the saved to heaven and isn't there a 3rd coming to dwell on the Earth for the eternity?

yes that is "the terms" we use because we are not usually using the term "rapture" for "his appearing" in Rev 19 which is more an incidental naming issue not a doctrine about what to name it. In our literature it is called "his appearing" and also "second coming". Evangelicals have "rapture" as a term for what we say he does in Rev 19 at his appearing, and they have the term "second coming" as a term for what we say He does in Rev 21 ruling on Earth.

I am fine with using Rapture/Appearing for Rev 19, and Second Coming for Rev 20-22 as terms that more clearly represent what we are saying - using the same definition for second coming as everyone else which is "comes to Earth - to reign on Earth with the saints".

First step is always to agree to the definition for terms -- then the differences show up more clearly.
 
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ewq1938

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yes that is "the terms" we use because we are not usually using the term "rapture" for "his appearing" in Rev 19 which is more an incidental naming issue not a doctrine about what to name it. In our literature it is called "his appearing" and also "second coming". Evangelicals have "rapture" as a term for what we say he does in Rev 19 at his appearing, and they have the term "second coming" as a term for what we say He does in Rev 21 ruling on Earth.

I am fine with using Rapture/Appearing for Rev 19, and Second Coming for Rev 20-22 as terms that more clearly represent what we are saying - using the same definition for second coming as everyone else which is "comes to Earth - to reign on Earth with the saints".

First step is always to agree to the definition for terms -- then the differences show up more clearly.


So it is true you believe in 3 comings?

1st coming at incarnation.
2nd coming or appearing to take the saved to heaven.
3rd coming to return to the Earth with everyone.

Yes?
 
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BobRyan

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So it is true you believe in 3 comings?

1st coming at incarnation.
2nd coming or appearing to take the saved to heaven.
3rd coming to return to the Earth with everyone.

Yes?

The "appearing" is not a coming to Earth rather He raptures the saints and destroys the wicked. Even evangelicals do not call the rapture event "the second coming" so it is not "unheard of" to call it "appearing" as the Bible does... but you can choose to call Rev 19 "second coming" and Rev 20-21 "Third coming" if you wish.
 
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tall73

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@ewq1938 @BobRyan

ewq1938 said:
So it is true you believe in 3 comings?

1st coming at incarnation.
2nd coming or appearing to take the saved to heaven.
3rd coming to return to the Earth with everyone.

Yes?

BobRyan said:

The "appearing" is not a coming to Earth rather He raptures the saints and destroys the wicked. Even evangelicals do not call the rapture event "the second coming" so it is not "unheard of" to call it "appearing" as the Bible does... but you can choose to call Rev 19 "second coming" and Rev 20-21 "Third coming" if you wish.


He asked if you see three comings. So do you?

Please point out the coming in Rev. 20-21.





 
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