SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

[tall73]

I said it was conjecture, but the text says it was the "Gate of God" Bethel. so we can speculate as to what that means. It is not like I made it up.

I am not saying you made it up, but that it records the words of Jacob, after a dream. He didn't know it was a thing a moment ago, so his take on it I would view as less important than Jesus' take on it, since Jesus is the source of it.

But I agree that it is referenced, and could be used other times. We just don't have much to go on with it.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I am not saying you made it up, but that it records the words of Jacob, after a dream. He didn't know it was a thing a moment ago, so his take on it I would view as less important than Jesus' take on it, since Jesus is the source of it.

But I agree that it is referenced, and could be used other times. We just don't have much to go on with it.

it's fun to speculate, but that is all it is....

 

[Dale]

From the 28 Basic Beliefs of the SDA

Seventh Day Adventist Basic Belief #27

Quote

“The Millenium and the End of Sin”

“The Millenium is the thousand year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged, the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend fro heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will
Jeremiah 4:23-26 ; Ezekiel 28:18-19 ; Malachi 4:1
I Corinthians 6:2-3 ; Revelation 20 ; Revelation 21:1-5

End Quote



The quote above does not say "Will give Earth".
Rev 12 says "cast down to Earth"




1. There is no "reign on Earth" in the quote - there is only "desolate Earth" and "no humans on Earth" in that quote.
2. there are no people to "Reign over" during the Millennium as Rev 19 and Jer 4 point out. The Earth is in chaos, desolate, and has no humans on it - during that time.

DESOLATE Earth during Millennium

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Jer 4:I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

Rev 20 calls that "bottomless pit"

During the millennium the Earth is returned partially to its Gen 2:3 "formless and void" state.


Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Bob,

In post after post, you emphasize that Jeremiah Four says that the earth was “void” to back up the SDA notion that Jeremiah was talking about the Second Coming and the Millennium. You do this in posts #22, 43, 63, 86, 106, 142, 161, 177 and 222. I’m not going to quote all of them.

Jeremiah is obviously alluding to Genesis 1:2. In the aftermath of the sacking of Jerusalem and the pillaging of Israel by the Babylonian army, it seemed to Jeremiah as if things had reverted to primordial chaos. All Jeremiah’s use of the term “void” really tells us is that Jeremiah was familiar with the first chapter of Genesis. I always assumed that he was.


Now the earth was formless and empty,
darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of
God was hovering over the waters.
Genesis 1:2 NIV

And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of
God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 KJV

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

In post after post, you emphasize that Jeremiah Four says that the earth was “void” to back up the SDA notion that Jeremiah was talking about the Second Coming and the Millennium.

In post after post I point out the Jeremiah 4 says there were "no humans" on Earth, and quote Jer 4:23 is quoted saying "The EARTH" was "formless and desolate" - but not because Jeremiah was trying "to back up SDA" statements... obviously.

SUMMARY:

1. The EARTH - desolate: without form and void - 4:23
2. The HEAVENS - had no light 4:23
3. Mountains - quaking 4:24
4. Hills - moving back and forth 4:24
5. NO Humans - 4:25
6. BIRDS - had fled - 4:25
7. ALL cities in ruins before the ANGER of the LORD 4:26
8. Earth is not completely destroyed -- but is DESOLATE 4:27
9. Heavens are dark 4:28

DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

NASB(1955) uses the phrase 'formless and void' - and this cannot be "blamed on SDAs"

Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

============== if you prefer a later NASB then we have

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

27 For this is what the Lord says:
“The whole land shall be a desolation,
Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 For this the earth will mourn,
And the heavens above will become dark,
Because I have spoken, I have purposed,
And I have not changed My mind, nor will I turn from it.”

=============================

Jeremiah is obviously alluding to Genesis 1:2.

Ok

He does after all set the context as "Earth" in Jer 4.

28 For this the earth will mourn,
And the heavens above will become dark,

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth

 

[Dale]

From the 28 Basic Beliefs of the SDA

Seventh Day Adventist Basic Belief #27

Quote

“The Millenium and the End of Sin”

“The Millenium is the thousand year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged, the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend fro heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will
Jeremiah 4:23-26 ; Ezekiel 28:18-19 ; Malachi 4:1
I Corinthians 6:2-3 ; Revelation 20 ; Revelation 21:1-5

End Quote



The quote above does not say "Will give Earth".
Rev 12 says "cast down to Earth"




1. There is no "reign on Earth" in the quote - there is only "desolate Earth" and "no humans on Earth" in that quote.
2. there are no people to "Reign over" during the Millennium as Rev 19 and Jer 4 point out. The Earth is in chaos, desolate, and has no humans on it - during that time.

Jer 4 - SUMMARY:

1. The EARTH - desolate: without form and void - 4:23
2. The HEAVENS - had no light 4:23
3. Mountains - quaking 4:24
4. Hills - moving back and forth 4:24
5. NO Humans - 4:25
6. BIRDS - had fled - 4:25
7. ALL cities in ruins before the ANGER of the LORD 4:26
8. Earth is not completely destroyed -- but is DESOLATE 4:27
9. Heavens are dark 4:28

DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Jer 4:I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

Rev 20 calls that "bottomless pit"

During the millennium the Earth is returned partially to its Gen 2:3 "formless and void" state.


Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Bob Ryan in post #22:
<< Jer 4:I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955) >>


You must have the wrong verse. Here is what the opening of Jeremiah Four really says.



“If you will return, O Israel, return to me,” declares the
LORD. “If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and
no longer go astray,
and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, ‘As
surely as the LORD lives,’ then the nations will be blessed by
him and in him they will glory.”
This is what the LORD says to the men of Judah and to
Jerusalem: “Break up your unploughed ground and do not
sow among thorns.
Jeremiah 4:1-3 NIV

The chapter opens with God calling on the Israelites to “return.” It is also addressed to the “men of Judah and to Jerusalem.” Would that make any sense if the Israelites were dead? Or some dead and some raptured into heaven? The chapter is addressed to Israel and it describes the troubles of Israel at a particular time. It isn’t addressed to all nations and it doesn’t describe the condition of the whole earth at any time. Since God is calling on the Israelites to repent, it certainly doesn’t describe a situation where it is too late to repent.

Think about it. This disproves everything Ellen White and the SDA say about this chapter.

 

[BobRyan]

SUMMARY:

1. The EARTH - desolate: without form and void - 4:23
2. The HEAVENS - had no light 4:23
3. Mountains - quaking 4:24
4. Hills - moving back and forth 4:24
5. NO Humans - 4:25
6. BIRDS - had fled - 4:25
7. ALL cities in ruins before the ANGER of the LORD 4:26
8. Earth is not completely destroyed -- but is DESOLATE 4:27
9. Heavens are dark 4:28

DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

NASB(1955) uses the phrase 'formless and void' - and this cannot be "blamed on SDAs"

Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

Bob Ryan in post #22:
<< Jer 4: I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955) >>

Ok granted that is what NASB 1955 has for vs 23

You must have the wrong verse. Here is what the opening of Jeremiah Four really says.

You snipped out too much from the post or you would see your mistake.

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Jer 4:I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

In my quote above I had the chapter but not the verse - however I did have Jer 4:23 right above it.

I keep pointing out that it is vs 23 for a dozen posts or wo.

The chapter opens with God calling on the Israelites to “return.”

Agreed. As with all prophecies in the OT pointing to Christ's first or second coming - they all include "other details" as we see in Is 9 and in Zech 9 - regarding other events ... also seen in Is 14 regarding Lucifer and Ezek 28 regarding Lucifer again. Other local details mixed in those chapters.

This did not "suddenly happen with Jer 4"

 

[Adventist Dissident]

In genesis 1 it is talking about the depth of the water. "And darkness was on the face of the deep (abyss)" not the formlessness of the earth. Which does not fit the SDA theory any ways. The earth is desolate not fromless and void.
"

 

[Dale]

and 1 Thess 4:13-18 says all the saints are taken to heaven at that point.




1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus appears in the sky -- and the saints are in the sky (Matt 24) - he takes them to His Father's house where He has prepared a place" for them. John 14:1-3

===================

The Bible says Satan's deception in the end -- takes in the whole world.

In post #29, Bob Ryan vaguely cited Matthew 24 as evidence that the saints are taken to heaven at the time of the Second Coming.

BR: “Jesus appears in the sky -- and the saints are in the sky (Matt 24) - he takes them to His Father's house where He has prepared a place" for them. John 14:1-3 ”

He jumbles two or more verses here. What can we learn from Matthew 24? Bob doesn’t give specific verses, so I have to improvise on figuring out what he is trying to say. It actually isn’t clear that there is a rapture at the Second Coming (or any other time) in Matthew 24.

Here is what the great historic commentator John Gill had to say about the likely “rapture” verses.


And he shall send his angels with a great sound of
a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the
four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:31 KJV


<< Matthew 24:31

Ver. 31. And he shall send his angels,.... Not the angels, i.e. ministering spirits, so called, not from their nature, but their office, as being sent forth by God and Christ; but men angels, or messengers, the ministers and preachers of the Gospel, whom Christ would call, qualify, and send forth into all the world of the Gentiles, to preach his Gospel, and plant churches there still more, when that at Jerusalem was broken up and dissolved. These are called "angels", because of their mission, and commission from Christ,
to preach the Gospel; and because of their knowledge and understanding in spiritual things; and because of their zeal, diligence, and watchfulness. >>


Then shall two be in the field; the one shall betaken, and the other left. Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:40-41 KJV

John Gill interprets Matthew 24:40-41, the famous “taken” and “left” verses in terms of Jews being killed by the Roman Army at the time that Herod’s Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.



<< Matthew 24:40

Ver. 40. Then shall two be in the field,.... About their proper business, of husbandry, ploughing, or sowing, or any other rural employment: the one shall be taken; not by the preaching of the Gospel, into the kingdom of God, or Gospel dispensation; though such a distinction God makes, by the ministry of the word, accompanied by his Spirit and power; nor by angels, to meet Christ in the air, and to be introduced into his kingdom and
glory; but by the eagles, the Roman army, and either killed or carried
captive by them: and the other left; not in a state of nature and unregeneracy, as many are, to whom the Gospel is preached; nor with devils at the last day, to be thrust down by them into the infernal regions; but by the Romans, being by some
remarkable providence, or another, delivered out of their hands; which was the case of some few, and these of the meaner sort; and therefore persons of a rural life and occupation are instanced in.

Matthew 24:41

Ver. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill,…

…
the one shall be taken, and the other left; as before, one shall be taken by the Romans, and either put to death, or carried captive; and the other shall escape their hands, through the singular providence of God. >>


Gill says that the angels who gather the elect are Christian ministers who spread the Gospel. In that light, this is not an account of the Second Coming.

Those who are “taken” are taken, killed, by the Roman Army during the invasion and sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Those who are “left” escaped this fate by running, hiding, by luck, or by God’s help.

Don’t jump to conclusions about finding a rapture of the faithful in Matthew 24.

 

[Dale]

Where did I say to you Revelation 19:19 says the wicked are destroyed? Your making arguments here no one is arguing about....

The remaining wicked who are alive at the second coming will be put to death and partake of the second resurrection of the wicked after the 1000 years...

Revelation 20:1-15
[1], And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2], And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (timing is the second coming)
[3], And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [4], And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5], But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6], Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note: What happens at the second coming here..

1 Thessalonians 4:14:17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the 1000 years since the second coming....

[7], And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8], And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9], And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10], And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11], And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12], And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13], And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15], And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

................

The wicked living at the second coming will be put to death from the presence of the Lord

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 [7], And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10], When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Matthew 13:38-42 [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Perhaps you should consider the scriptures here Dale that disagree with you.

Take Care.

LGW, I’m not sure you have read this thread. I hope you have ready my posts #170, 172 and 173. Post #170, in particular, explains how Ellen White’s timeline completely contradicts the Book of Revelation.

LGW: “Where did I say to you Revelation 19:19 says the wicked are destroyed? Your making arguments here no one is arguing about.…”

In post #21 you said: “At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed.”

After complaining I am misrepresenting you, you then backtrack, saying, in #224:

LGW: “The remaining wicked who are alive at the second coming will be put to death and partake of the second resurrection of the wicked after the 1000 years …”

and

LGW: “The wicked living at the time of the second coming will be put to death from the presence of the Lord.”

This notion that the God will destroy the wicked at the time of the Second Coming is inconsistent with the continuing existence of the nations. The notion of a “second resurrection of the wicked” is unbiblical, there is nothing to support it.

 

[Dale]

Where did I say to you Revelation 19:19 says the wicked are destroyed? Your making arguments here no one is arguing about....

The remaining wicked who are alive at the second coming will be put to death and partake of the second resurrection of the wicked after the 1000 years...

Revelation 20:1-15
[1], And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2], And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (timing is the second coming)
[3], And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [4], And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5], But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6], Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note: What happens at the second coming here..

1 Thessalonians 4:14:17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the 1000 years since the second coming....

[7], And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8], And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9], And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10], And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11], And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12], And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13], And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15], And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

................

The wicked living at the second coming will be put to death from the presence of the Lord

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 [7], And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10], When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Matthew 13:38-42 [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Perhaps you should consider the scriptures here Dale that disagree with you.

Take Care.

LGW, it is odd that in post #224, you quote the Parable of Wheat and Tares from Matthew, yet you fail to notice that I already referred to the same parable in my post #223. As I said then:

At the conclusion of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, or Wheat and Weeds, we find;

No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the

weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will

tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in

bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into

my barn.’”

Matthew 13:29-30 NIV

In this Parable, the weeds, the wicked, are burned BEFORE the wheat, the righteous, or the justified, are gathered in. You can’t assume that the righteous, the saved, are out of the way before the vultures, the birds, “eat the flesh of all people.” As I said, “all people” simply means that no one is immune. People of all stations who join the army of the Beast will be slain but there will be many people on earth who aren’t part of that army. [End Quote]


The weeds, or tares, are burned BEFORE the wheat, the saved, are gathered. What does this mean? There can’t be a rapture of the saved at the time of the Second Coming when the wicked are not judged and burned with unquenchable fire for another thousand years. If the saved get raptured at the time of the Second Coming in Revelation, as you claim, then Revelation is inconsistent with Matthew. I believe that Matthew is consistent with Revelation, but your interpretation is wrong.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW, I’m not sure you have read this thread. I hope you have ready my posts #170, 172 and 173. Post #170, in particular, explains how Ellen White’s timeline completely contradicts the Book of Revelation.

LGW: “Where did I say to you Revelation 19:19 says the wicked are destroyed? Your making arguments here no one is arguing about.…”

In post #21 you said: “At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed.”

After complaining I am misrepresenting you, you then backtrack, saying, in #224:

LGW: “The remaining wicked who are alive at the second coming will be put to death and partake of the second resurrection of the wicked after the 1000 years …”

and

LGW: “The wicked living at the time of the second coming will be put to death from the presence of the Lord.”

This notion that the God will destroy the wicked at the time of the Second Coming is inconsistent with the continuing existence of the nations. The notion of a “second resurrection of the wicked” is unbiblical, there is nothing to support it.

Please forgive me but I do not believe you and have outlined my reasons earlier in the thread from the scriptures. So we will agree to disagree. Thanks though for sharing your view but we are in disagreement as I do not believe your view is biblical. Beside the scriptures already shared with you earlier even Jesus references the destruction of the world in Noah's day and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with "so shall the coming of the son of man be," meaning the living wicked will also be destroyed at the second coming. All the wicked then will not be alive again until after the 1000 years and the second resurrection.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW, it is odd that in post #224, you quote the Parable of Wheat and Tares from Matthew, yet you fail to notice that I already referred to the same parable in my post #223. As I said then:

At the conclusion of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, or Wheat and Weeds, we find;

No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the

weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will

tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in

bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into

my barn.’”

Matthew 13:29-30 NIV

In this Parable, the weeds, the wicked, are burned BEFORE the wheat, the righteous, or the justified, are gathered in. You can’t assume that the righteous, the saved, are out of the way before the vultures, the birds, “eat the flesh of all people.” As I said, “all people” simply means that no one is immune. People of all stations who join the army of the Beast will be slain but there will be many people on earth who aren’t part of that army. [End Quote]


The weeds, or tares, are burned BEFORE the wheat, the saved, are gathered. What does this mean? There can’t be a rapture of the saved at the time of the Second Coming when the wicked are not judged and burned with unquenchable fire for another thousand years. If the saved get raptured at the time of the Second Coming in Revelation, as you claim, then Revelation is inconsistent with Matthew. I believe that Matthew is consistent with Revelation, but your interpretation is wrong.

I think you missed the point. The end of time here is the harvest (the second coming) when the living saints are gathered together to be with the Lord and the living wicked are destroyed and all the wicked lived no more for 1000 years. This shows your interpretation is in error. I think you have misunderstood my earlier post. There is a difference between the "living wicked" alive at the second coming and the wicked dead of all time and all the wicked not living anymore for 1000 years until the time of the "second resurrection" when the world is in desolation.

Take Care.

 

[Dale]

Where did I say to you Revelation 19:19 says the wicked are destroyed? Your making arguments here no one is arguing about....

The remaining wicked who are alive at the second coming will be put to death and partake of the second resurrection of the wicked after the 1000 years...

Revelation 20:1-15
[1], And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2], And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (timing is the second coming)
[3], And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [4], And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5], But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6], Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note: What happens at the second coming here..

1 Thessalonians 4:14:17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the 1000 years since the second coming....

[7], And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8], And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9], And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10], And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11], And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12], And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13], And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15], And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

................

The wicked living at the second coming will be put to death from the presence of the Lord

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 [7], And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10], When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Matthew 13:38-42 [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Perhaps you should consider the scriptures here Dale that disagree with you.

Take Care.

LGW,

On II Thessalonians, 1:6-10, you just taking what you want from this passage and leaving the rest. In this passage, Jesus does not come from heaven, slay the wicked, they go back to heaven for a thousand years, then return again, resurrect the wicked and then give them “everlasting destruction.” Which would be pointless, when you think about it. There is only one coming after the Ascension here, and no mention of taking the saints to heaven. When Jesus comes to earth again, He comes stay and He comes to reign.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord
Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy
by the splendour of his coming.
II Thessalonians 2:8 NIV

Again, in Thessalonians 2:8, Jesus overthrows, destroys, “the lawless one.” It doesn’t say that He kills every unsaved person on earth. It doesn’t say that the saints are taken to heaven. You are simply reading the doctrines you have been taught into the passage.

 

[Dale]

Where did I say to you Revelation 19:19 says the wicked are destroyed? Your making arguments here no one is arguing about....

The remaining wicked who are alive at the second coming will be put to death and partake of the second resurrection of the wicked after the 1000 years...

Revelation 20:1-15
[1], And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2], And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (timing is the second coming)
[3], And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [4], And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5], But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6], Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note: What happens at the second coming here..

1 Thessalonians 4:14:17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the 1000 years since the second coming....

[7], And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8], And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9], And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10], And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11], And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12], And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13], And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15], And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

................

The wicked living at the second coming will be put to death from the presence of the Lord

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 [7], And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10], When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Matthew 13:38-42 [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Perhaps you should consider the scriptures here Dale that disagree with you.

Take Care.

LGW,

I used to think that SDA’s were right to reject the notion of a rapture. After all, Ellen White wasn’t familiar with modern evangelical ideas of a rapture that happens seven years before the Second Coming. Apparently I was wrong.

You have completely misunderstood I Thessalonians 4:13-18. Jesus does not start to come down from heaven, then change directions and go back to heaven.

Three quotes from Barbara R. Rossing, The Rapture Exposed, p. 175-177:

“The passage proclaims that Christ will ‘descend from heaven” (1 Thess 4:16) – that is, he is coming down from heaven to earth. There is no reason to think that Jesus will change directions and turn around to go back to heaven after Christians meet him in the air.”

“Paul’s description of ‘meeting’ the Lord in the air employs a very specific Greek word for greeting a visiting dignitary in ancient times: apantesis, a practice by which people went outside the city to greet the dignitary and then accompanied him into their city.”

The same word is used in the Parable of Wise and Foolish Virgins.

<< In Matthew, for example, the bridegroom’s arrival is greeted with a shout: “Look! Here is the bridegroom. Come out to meet him.” But the bridegroom does not then kidnap the bridesmaids and take them away with him after they go out to meet him! Rather, the bridegroom goes with the bridesmaids into the house from where they came, where everyone is waiting for him. Matthew makes this clear: “The bridegroom came, and those who were with him went into the wedding banquet; and the door was shut” (Matthew 25:10). >>

The same interpretation is found on the Christian Issues website.

<< We can note three things about this word "meet" (apantesis)
a) - The bridegroom is going to the marriage feast.
b) - The virgins go out to meet him.
c) - They continue on to the marriage feast, the original destination.
The bridegroom certainly does not fetch them from where they are waiting and whisk them off to some far away location. >>

The same thing happens to Paul in Acts 28:15-16, where the word apantesis is also used.

<< Again, we note three things:
1 - Paul is traveling toward the city of Rome.
2 - The brethren meet him.
3 - Paul and the brethren continue on into Rome, the original destination. >>

“When the dignitary approached a city, the elders of the city would go out to meet him and escort him back into the city. In no case does the one being met reverse direction and return the way he came. On the contrary, it is the people meeting the dignitary who change direction.”

Website:
http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/endtimes/comingandmeet.pdf

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW,

I used to think that SDA’s were right to reject the notion of a rapture. After all, Ellen White wasn’t familiar with modern evangelical ideas of a rapture that happens seven years before the Second Coming. Apparently I was wrong.

You have completely misunderstood I Thessalonians 4:13-18. Jesus does not start to come down from heaven, then change directions and go back to heaven.

Three quotes from Barbara R. Rossing, The Rapture Exposed, p. 175-177:

“The passage proclaims that Christ will ‘descend from heaven” (1 Thess 4:16) – that is, he is coming down from heaven to earth. There is no reason to think that Jesus will change directions and turn around to go back to heaven after Christians meet him in the air.”

“Paul’s description of ‘meeting’ the Lord in the air employs a very specific Greek word for greeting a visiting dignitary in ancient times: apantesis, a practice by which people went outside the city to greet the dignitary and then accompanied him into their city.”

The same word is used in the Parable of Wise and Foolish Virgins.

<< In Matthew, for example, the bridegroom’s arrival is greeted with a shout: “Look! Here is the bridegroom. Come out to meet him.” But the bridegroom does not then kidnap the bridesmaids and take them away with him after they go out to meet him! Rather, the bridegroom goes with the bridesmaids into the house from where they came, where everyone is waiting for him. Matthew makes this clear: “The bridegroom came, and those who were with him went into the wedding banquet; and the door was shut” (Matthew 25:10). >>

The same interpretation is found on the Christian Issues website.

<< We can note three things about this word "meet" (apantesis)
a) - The bridegroom is going to the marriage feast.
b) - The virgins go out to meet him.
c) - They continue on to the marriage feast, the original destination.
The bridegroom certainly does not fetch them from where they are waiting and whisk them off to some far away location. >>

The same thing happens to Paul in Acts 28:15-16, where the word apantesis is also used.

<< Again, we note three things:
1 - Paul is traveling toward the city of Rome.
2 - The brethren meet him.
3 - Paul and the brethren continue on into Rome, the original destination. >>

“When the dignitary approached a city, the elders of the city would go out to meet him and escort him back into the city. In no case does the one being met reverse direction and return the way he came. On the contrary, it is the people meeting the dignitary who change direction.”

Website:
http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/endtimes/comingandmeet.pdf

Please forgive me but I reject your claim that I have misunderstood anything in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. All I see in your response is an attempt to explain away the scriptures shared with you. So we will be in disagreement as I do not believe your teachings for the reasons outlined in the post you are quoting from that you did not address. There is nothing that you have posted here that disagrees with anything that has been shared with you from the scriptures in this thread. You may want to consider that the Greek words apantesis has never been the problem or does it disagree with the scriptures already shared with you as all the living will meet the Lord at the second coming. For some though it will be too late and they will not meet Him in peace. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That is between you and God.

Take care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW,

On II Thessalonians, 1:6-10, you just taking what you want from this passage and leaving the rest. In this passage, Jesus does not come from heaven, slay the wicked, they go back to heaven for a thousand years, then return again, resurrect the wicked and then give them “everlasting destruction.” Which would be pointless, when you think about it. There is only one coming after the Ascension here, and no mention of taking the saints to heaven. When Jesus comes to earth again, He comes stay and He comes to reign.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord
Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy
by the splendour of his coming.
II Thessalonians 2:8 NIV

Again, in Thessalonians 2:8, Jesus overthrows, destroys, “the lawless one.” It doesn’t say that He kills every unsaved person on earth. It doesn’t say that the saints are taken to heaven. You are simply reading the doctrines you have been taught into the passage.

Timing and context is to the second coming.

 

[klutedavid]

Bob, in post #41 and again in post #42, you quote Revelation 19: 18 to say that the birds will eat “the flesh of all people.”

I would suggest to you that “all people” simply means that no one is immune, rank or station is irrelevant. It doesn’t mean that everyone dies and the earth is left empty of people.

In your interpretation of Revelation, the saved are raptured, taken to heaven, and the unsaved are slaughtered. This contradicts the clear meaning of the text of Revelation 19.

Re. 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike
down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron sceptre.”
[Psalm 2:9] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath
of God Almighty.
Re. 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KINGOF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
--NIV


If everyone is slain by the sword of God, there is no one left to rule “with an iron sceptre.”

The order of events is not as clear as you seem to think. At the conclusion of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, or Wheat and Weeds, we find:

No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will
tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’”
Matthew 13:29-30 NIV


In this Parable, the weeds, the wicked, are burned BEFORE the wheat, the righteous, or the justified, are gathered in. You can’t assume that the righteous, the saved, are out of the way before the vultures, the birds, “eat the flesh of all people.” As I said, “all people” simply means that no one is immune. People of all stations who join the army of the Beast will be slain but there will be many people on earth who aren’t part of that army.

Here is the Septuagint quotation from Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 4 (Septuagint)

22 For my foolish people have not known me: they are foolish and senseless children: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and lo it was void, and nothing: and the heavens, and there was no light in them.

24 I looked upon the mountains, and behold they trembled: and all the hills were troubled.

25 I beheld, and lo there was no man: and all the birds of the air were gone.

26 I looked, and behold Carmel was a wilderness: and all its cities were destroyed at the presence of the Lord, and at the presence of the wrath of his indignation.

27 For thus saith the Lord: All the land shall be desolate, but yet I will not utterly destroy.

28 The Earth shall mourn, and the heavens shall lament from above: because I have spoken, I have purposed, and I have not repented, neither am I turned away from it.

29 At the voice of the horsemen, and the archers, all the city is fled away: they have entered into thickets and climbed up the rocks: all the cities are forsaken, and there dwelleth not a man in them.

In my opinion, it looks as though God is judging the nation of Israel.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Timing and context is to the second coming.

the sda chruch is a rapturist church. the problem is that that they call the rapture the advent.

1. the rapture/advent is the part where we go to heaven. to the marriage supper of the Lamb.
2. The second coming is the part where Christ comes and rules the wrold. The Sabbath is a sign/promise of this.

Most people get these 2 events confused because we have changed the meaning of the 2nd coming, the 2nd coming now means to most people the part where we go to heaven This is wrong.
up until 1780 most people knew that the 2nd coing was the part wehre Christ ruled the world. it was universal. when the bible societies began to print more bible and people began to study and found there was a part where we went to heaven, this was named the rapture or advent. it was a way of showing the difference from when we go to the marriage supper of the lamb and where Christ rules on the earth.

SDA's have a unique problem with this, in order to reconcile the problem posed by the text to issues of the soul going to heaven and retuning upon Christ return , they moved the 1000 years to link with the part where we go to heaven, heaven accordind to SDA theology starts the 1000 year in heaven and ends with Christ return to the earth. The problem with this is that the Sabbath contridicts this, stating the the 1000 years are on this earth, and a person who dies at 100 will be considered an infant. how do they reconcile this information. they again shift the 1000 years to heaven rather then it being on earth. That is why they think there is a conflict, when there is none. That is why they think the rapture is a false teaching when it is a true teaching.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

the sda chruch is a rapturist church. the problem is that that they call the rapture the advent.

1. the rapture/advent is the part where we go to heaven. to the marriage supper of the Lamb.
2. The second coming is the part where Christ comes and rules the wrold. The Sabbath is a sign/promise of this.

Most people get these 2 events confused because we have changed the meaning of the 2nd coming, the 2nd coming now means to most people the part where we go to heaven This is wrong.
up until 1780 most people knew that the 2nd coing was the part wehre Christ ruled the world. it was universal. when the bible societies began to print more bible and people began to study and found there was a part where we went to heaven, this was named the rapture or advent. it was a way of showing the difference from when we go to the marriage supper of the lamb and where Christ rules on the earth.

SDA's have a unique problem with this, in order to reconcile the problem posed by the text to issues of the soul going to heaven and retuning upon Christ return , they moved the 1000 years to link with the part where we go to heaven, heaven accordind to SDA theology starts the 1000 year in heaven and ends with Christ return to the earth. The problem with this is that the Sabbath contridicts this, stating the the 1000 years are on this earth, and a person who dies at 100 will be considered an infant. how do they reconcile this information. they again shift the 1000 years to heaven rather then it being on earth. That is why they think there is a conflict, when there is none. That is why they think the rapture is a false teaching when it is a true teaching.

There is no problem. People only make problems for themselves by not believing and following what God's Word says. (see post # 224 linked).

 

[Adventist Dissident]

There is no problem. People only make problems for themselves by not believing and following what God's Word says. (see post # 224 linked).

you made a number of mistatkes in your post

Note: What happens at the second coming here.. This is not the 2nd coming. This is the Advent/Rapture. the part where you go to heaven did you even read my post.

1 Thessalonians 4:14:17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. this is the Advent/Rapture not the 2nd coming
2. Christ is bring something with him. those who have fallen asleep
3. if this is the second coming then why are the dead still asleep, the should still be alive
4. The problem is that you say there is no Soul, so you have to pretend that is it the 2nd coming. Matt 10:28, 1.Thess 5:23, Hebrews 4:12, Genesis 35:18,
1 Corinthians 15:35-58
5. We are taken to be with the lord in heaven. not on earth. this is the Advent/Rapture the part where we go to heaven. This is different then when he comes to rule the earth. that would make two 2nd coming's or it would make a 3rd coming.