Are there spiritual fathers in our time?

[ArmyMatt]

It would take some time to find it, tomorrow on my PC but l will try. Fr John might have said it. But to ask in reply, why not? It is the basis of Orthodoxy and the aim of man to be united with Christ so why have bishops and or theologians who have not reached it and therefore cannot help others? I would say it makes no sense not to insist. But of course if the true church have fallen so far that they are rare, then we will find them promoted.

my only objection is that it wasn’t ever a REQUIREMENT to become a bishop. certainly it’s something they (of all of us) should be striving for.

 

[prodromos]

It used to be a requirement that any candidate for bishop be able to recite the psalter from memory. Before the advent of the printing press it was relatively common for people to memorise such things (chanting made it easier). We have become incredibly lazy now that we can simply open an app on our phone.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It used to be a requirement that any candidate for bishop be able to recite the psalter from memory. Before the advent of the printing press it was relatively common for people to memorise such things (chanting made it easier). We have become incredibly lazy now that we can simply open an app on our phone.

yep, I only know one bishop who has the Psalter memorized.

 

[rusmeister]

no monastery you can travel to?

Oh, we go to monasteries occasionally. But as you said, without some kind of close personal relationship, it’s a moot issue.

 

[prodromos]

Oh, we go to monasteries occasionally. But as you said, without some kind of close personal relationship, it’s a moot issue.

One of the things I loved about the convent at Ormylia in Halkidiki, Greece, is they made a concerted effort to forge relationships with visitors. You sit down for coffee and refreshment and one of the nuns would sit with you to talk. When they learned that we mostly spoke English they then connected us with another nun who was originally from England and from there we developed relationships with a number of the nuns, one of whom had grown up in Australia and was instrumental in us finding our spiritual Father in Sydney when we returned to Australia. We also regularly visited the convent near Souroti where Saint Paisios of Mt Athos is buried, but we did not know any of the nuns there and really had no opportunity to meet with any of them to establish a relationship. I understand that they entered the monastery to leave the world, so I don't begrudge them not having much contact with many 'outsiders', but I wish that more monasteries could find the balance established at Ormylia. It was truly a blessing.

 

[bmjackson]

Before I start the search on what the early fathers said about the requirements of a bishop, let's look at Titus 1:6 An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

So looking at what scripture says about 'blameless' here is:

"When applied to Christians, the quality of blamelessness is both a positional benefit of salvation and a moral character to be achieved. Each person is worthy of accusation in the sight of God. The blameless character of Christians, however, is the intention of God, who "chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" ( Eph 1:4 ). Christ's love and sacrifice for the church were such that he could present her to himself "without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" ( Eph 5:27 )."

Blameless - Meaning & Definition - Baker's Bible Dictionary

Note that it is classed as being in the sight of God and not man.

 

[bmjackson]

Irenaeus

We are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; . . . For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh, we go to monasteries occasionally. But as you said, without some kind of close personal relationship, it’s a moot issue.

sure, but that means you should frequent or contact them more often. a nun told me that everyone should have that one monastery that he goes to regularly

 

[ArmyMatt]

Before I start the search on what the early fathers said about the requirements of a bishop, let's look at Titus 1:6 An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

So looking at what scripture says about 'blameless' here is:

"When applied to Christians, the quality of blamelessness is both a positional benefit of salvation and a moral character to be achieved. Each person is worthy of accusation in the sight of God. The blameless character of Christians, however, is the intention of God, who "chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" ( Eph 1:4 ). Christ's love and sacrifice for the church were such that he could present her to himself "without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" ( Eph 5:27 )."

Blameless - Meaning & Definition - Baker's Bible Dictionary

Note that it is classed as being in the sight of God and not man.

Irenaeus

We are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; . . . For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

neither of these quotes say attaining theosis is a requirement.

 

[bmjackson]

neither of these quotes say attaining theosis is a requirement.

It depends on how you interpret 'blameless'. Irenaeus did say 'very perfect'. hopefully I will get an answer soon from a group who study Fr John Romanides with some quotes from the ECF's.

 

[bmjackson]

1 Cor 4:15 says:

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul is showing that although there are many teachers, there are few Fathers, which he interprets to mean, those who beget others with the divine nature ie theosis which is the basis of the gospel.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It depends on how you interpret 'blameless'. Irenaeus did say 'very perfect'. hopefully I will get an answer soon from a group who study Fr John Romanides with some quotes from the ECF's.

right, but theosis has a very specific meaning. being “perfect” is more broad.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1 Cor 4:15 says:

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul is showing that although there are many teachers, there are few Fathers, which he interprets to mean, those who beget others with the divine nature ie theosis which is the basis of the gospel.

no, that’s not what that means. humans can’t beget others with the divine nature.

 

[bmjackson]

no, that’s not what that means. humans can’t beget others with the divine nature.

By way of being a spiritual father they do pass it on through teaching it and showing the example of it.

 

[bmjackson]

right, but theosis has a very specific meaning. being “perfect” is more broad.

So what does perfect mean to you?

 

[bmjackson]

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe 1 Thes 2:10

Paul is quite clear here: he demonstrated along with the other apostles who visited, theosis.

I don't think he would dare say that if any of them slipped up even slightly.

 

[bmjackson]

By way of being a spiritual father they do pass it on through teaching it and showing the example of it.

But most of all, by the presence of the Holy Spirit within those who are deified, in His role of conviction of sin. It is said that even one glance from a holy man, will cause the sinful to repent and fall down with grief for his unholy state. It is recorded in holiness teaching which is also found (though practiced by few) in western churches in the past.

 

[ArmyMatt]

By way of being a spiritual father they do pass it on through teaching it and showing the example of it.

no, that’s not the divine nature

 

[ArmyMatt]

So what does perfect mean to you?

for humans, to be perfect is to constantly seek to be perfected. theosis comes along that process, but again, it’s not a requirement to be a bishop.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe 1 Thes 2:10

Paul is quite clear here: he demonstrated along with the other apostles who visited, theosis.

I don't think he would dare say that if any of them slipped up even slightly.

well, the apostles aren’t every bishop. and again, St Paul doesn’t say that it’s a requirement.

and elsewhere in the Scriptures, St Paul does say that St Peter slipped, and St Paul publicly rebuked him.