• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your kingdom is overrun by billions of wicked at the end of your so-called future millennium who surround the camp of the saints for a season led by their super-hero Satan.


The entire time though, they were living outside of the kingdom, not inside of it, since my position assumes the NJ is the kingdom meant. The NJ will be present during the thousand years regardless that most Premils might disagree with that. Some Premils think animal sacrificing resumes after the 2nd coming. Some Premils think the heavens and earth pass away a thousand years and a little season later post the 2nd coming. Even if these same Premils disagree with me about the NJ being present during the thousand years? So what? It's not like, that if they find that bizarre, that it's not equally bizarre some of the things they conclude as well.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,078
3,472
USA
Visit site
✟225,378.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The entire time though, they were living outside of the kingdom, not inside of it, since my position assumes the NJ is the kingdom meant. The NJ will be present during the thousand years regardless that most Premils might disagree with that. Some Premils think animal sacrificing resumes after the 2nd coming. Some Premils think the heavens and earth pass away a thousand years and a little season later post the 2nd coming. Even if these same Premils disagree with me about the NJ being present during the thousand years? So what? It's not like, that if they find that bizarre, that it's not equally bizarre some of the things they conclude as well.

Premil hermeneutics are so loose and questionable, and there are so many contradictions in Premil, it is no surprise that Premils are all over the place in establishing something so simple, basic and obvious as locating the new heaven and new earth and the New Jerusalem and what the millennial kingdom looks like.

So, where exactly in Revelation 20 does it teach that the New Jerusalem descends and the new heaven and new earth is inaugurated at the appearance of the millennium?

Do you also reject the whole idea, description and teaching on a millennial kingdom?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jeffweedaman

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2020
778
558
62
PROSPECT
✟97,293.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And why might they do that? Maybe they just didn't like being ruled over and satan deceives them into thinking they can overthrow Christ and His one world government.

It should be clear to them mortals whom the glorified Jesus and the elect are reigning over that Jesus is their only hope of escaping death.
This whole premill concept of a future millennium is totally untenable.

Amills see the millennium as the Gospel age where huge numbers come to faith and are saved through Jesus First resurrection.
Those who do not find a love of the truth by the end of the Gospel age will be sent a deluding influence when satan is released to go forth in all his power of deception just prior to the Lords coming.


7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


The appearing of the Lord in all his glory will bring to a complete end of those who have rejected his Gospel.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Spiritual Jew
Upvote 0

ShineyDays2

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2018
432
216
83
Murphy
✟65,616.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The NJ will be present during the thousand years regardless that most Premils might disagree with that.
Could you provide an outline of what goes on during your 1,000 year millenium and the New Jerusalem --- on earth?

For example:
~ are there animal sacrifices
~ is there a new temple
~ what verses do you provide that a new temple will be built for those animal sacrifices
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Could you provide an outline of what goes on during your 1,000 year millenium and the New Jerusalem --- on earth?

For example:
~ are there animal sacrifices
~ is there a new temple
~ what verses do you provide that a new temple will be built for those animal sacrifices


Apparently, you haven't read some of my other posts in this thread. Because in some of those posts I have indicated I do not agree with Premils who insist animal sacrificing resumes, which then means neither do I agree a temple will be built. Therefore, I have no verses to support any of that since that is not my position. Yet, if there is a thousand years post the 2nd coming, it has to involve the NJ. If there is no thousand years post the 2nd coming, then none of this matters anyway. So, this is only assuming a thousand years post the 2nd coming, it would have to involve the NJ.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,078
3,472
USA
Visit site
✟225,378.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Apparently, you haven't read some of my other posts in this thread. Because in some of those posts I have indicated I do not agree with Premils who insist animal sacrificing resumes, which then means neither do I agree a temple will be built. Therefore, I have no verses to support any of that since that is not my position. Yet, if there is a thousand years post the 2nd coming, it has to involve the NJ. If there is no thousand years post the 2nd coming, then none of this matters anyway. So, this is only assuming a thousand years post the 2nd coming, it would have to involve the NJ.

So, what then is Ezekiel 40-48 and Zechariah 14 (2 of your favorite passages) describing?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you also reject the whole idea, description and teaching on a millennial kingdom?



I'm Premil by default since I conclude that the thousand years are post the 2nd coming. That doesn't mean I agree with everything Premils conclude. I can't be Amil nor PostMil if I believe the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, regardless that I do agree with Amils that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. One reason, and there are numerous reasons, I remain convinced the thousand years are post the 2nd coming is because some things simply can't work with Amil, yet have to work with something.

Plus, what I have recently been bringing up in regards to Amils having every single person satan deceives after the thousand years, where their number is as the sand of the sea, Amils have these already being deceived during the thousand years even though that is the reason satan is bound to begin with, so that he can deceive the nations no more.

Except Amils insist 'no more' doesn't literally mean what it says, but if one does an exact phrase search in the KJV for 'no more' in the book of Revelation, every single place it's used elsewhere it appears to literally mean what it says. And you have room to talk about hermeneutics that are so loose and questionable when not one single other passage in Revelation involving the phrase 'no more' agrees with how you are interpreting that same phrase in Revelation 20:3?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

These are the passages in Revelation containing the phrase 'no more'. which of these passages do you propose 'no more' is meaning like you are taking it to mean in Revelation 20:3?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, what then is Ezekiel 40-48 and Zechariah 14 (2 of your favorite passages) describing?

As to Ezekiel 40-48, since when are those my favorite passages? I have only brought up something in Ezekiel 47 recently because it appears to be describing what is recorded in Revelation 22:2. As to some of the verses prior to those, none of those appear to be describing anything in Revelation 21 or 22. These last 9 chapters in Ezekiel are difficult chapters to try and figure out why they are in the Bible to begin with since it doesn't appear the majority of it will ever be literally fulfilled.

As to Zechariah 14, it's simple. If none of that involves animal sacrificing if involving this age, then neither does it have to involve animal sacrificing if meaning post the 2nd coming. How is it reasonable that if it involves this age, this means it doesn't involve animal sacrificing, but if it involves post the 2nd coming this means it does involve animal sacrificing? What kind of logic is that? Regardless when it is meaning, no one can deny that it is meaning post the death and resurrection of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It should be clear to them mortals whom the glorified Jesus and the elect are reigning over that Jesus is their only hope of escaping death.
This whole premill concept of a future millennium is totally untenable.

Then you apparently don't fully grasp the concept of deceiving. The text says satan deceives them. Apparently, satan deceived countless angels ages ago when he convinced them to rebel against God with him. All of these far more intelligent than any human is. Yet, some of you act as if humans are superior in intelligence to that of angels, since satan can deceive angels who have been in God's presence, but he can't do that to any humans who have been in God's presence.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,078
3,472
USA
Visit site
✟225,378.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm Premil by default since I conclude that the thousand years are post the 2nd coming. That doesn't mean I agree with everything Premils conclude. I can't be Amil nor PostMil if I believe the thousand years are post the 2nd coming, regardless that I do agree with Amils that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. One reason, and there are numerous reasons, I remain convinced the thousand years are post the 2nd coming is because some things simply can't work with Amil, yet have to work with something.

Plus, what I have recently been bringing up in regards to Amils having every single person satan deceives after the thousand years, where their number is as the sand of the sea, Amils have these already being deceived during the thousand years even though that is the reason satan is bound to begin with, so that he can deceive the nations no more.

Except Amils insist 'no more' doesn't literally mean what it says, but if one does an exact phrase search in the KJV for 'no more' in the book of Revelation, every single place it's used elsewhere it appears to literally mean what it says. And you have room to talk about hermeneutics that are so loose and questionable when not one single other passage in Revelation involving the phrase 'no more' agrees with how you are interpreting that same phrase in Revelation 20:3?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

These are the passages in Revelation containing the phrase 'no more'. which of these passages do you propose 'no more' is meaning like you are taking it to mean in Revelation 20:3?

Congrats on ignoring all the many NT passages presented to you that forbid your position. Congrats on ignoring my main question. You have to do that because to address/acknowledge them would force you to become Amil. Avoidance therefore is your only other option out.

So, where exactly in Revelation 20 does it teach that the New Jerusalem descends and the new heaven and new earth is inaugurated at the appearance of the millennium?

Your continual avoidance confirms how untenable and contradictory Premil is.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,078
3,472
USA
Visit site
✟225,378.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As to Ezekiel 40-48, since when are those my favorite passages? I have only brought up something in Ezekiel 47 recently because it appears to be describing what is recorded in Revelation 22:2. As to some of the verses prior to those, none of those appear to be describing anything in Revelation 21 or 22. These last 9 chapters in Ezekiel are difficult chapters to try and figure out why they are in the Bible to begin with since it doesn't appear the majority of it will ever be literally fulfilled.

As to Zechariah 14, it's simple. If none of that involves animal sacrificing if involving this age, then neither does it have to involve animal sacrificing if meaning post the 2nd coming. How is it reasonable that if it involves this age, this means it doesn't involve animal sacrificing, but if it involves post the 2nd coming this means it does involve animal sacrificing? What kind of logic is that? Regardless when it is meaning, no one can deny that it is meaning post the death and resurrection of Christ.

You claim these passages relate to some supposed mongrel future age in between time and eternity, involving justice and injustice, righteousness and unrighteousness, sin and perfection, glorification and corruption. Where do they teach this? You have yet to tell us what these ancient abolished Judaic old covenant sacrifices mean if they are not real.
 
Upvote 0

jeffweedaman

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2020
778
558
62
PROSPECT
✟97,293.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then you apparently don't fully grasp the concept of deceiving. The text says satan deceives them. Apparently, satan deceived countless angels ages ago when he convinced them to rebel against God with him. All of these far more intelligent than any human is. Yet, some of you act as if humans are superior in intelligence to that of angels, since satan can deceive angels who have been in God's presence, but he can't do that to any humans who have been in God's presence.

Only those in Christ are able to stand at the appearing of his Glory.
You need to embrace 2 thess 1 and 2, that clearly state that his appearing will not only Glorify believers but eternally separate all gospel rejecters and that revealing of the man of sin.

Luke 21:36

34 “But be on your guard, so that your hearts will not be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that this day will not come on you suddenly, like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth. 36 But stay alert at all times, praying that you will have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
9,078
3,472
USA
Visit site
✟225,378.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
what I have recently been bringing up in regards to Amils having every single person satan deceives after the thousand years, where their number is as the sand of the sea, Amils have these already being deceived during the thousand years even though that is the reason satan is bound to begin with, so that he can deceive the nations no more.

Except Amils insist 'no more' doesn't literally mean what it says, but if one does an exact phrase search in the KJV for 'no more' in the book of Revelation, every single place it's used elsewhere it appears to literally mean what it says. And you have room to talk about hermeneutics that are so loose and questionable when not one single other passage in Revelation involving the phrase 'no more' agrees with how you are interpreting that same phrase in Revelation 20:3?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

These are the passages in Revelation containing the phrase 'no more'. which of these passages do you propose 'no more' is meaning like you are taking it to mean in Revelation 20:3?

This is basically a general statement that is repeating what the rest of Scripture is saying, telling us: through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Gentiles would no longer be deceived. It is a sweeping statement. It is a generality. Scripture does that often.

You need to see, the Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek ethnos which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ethnos in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

Notwithstanding, the term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to exclusively manifest His glory for thousands of years before the Cross. Incidentally, this differentiation is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favor of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often of used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people. Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from specifically deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

Throughout the Old Testament the prophets repeatedly spoke, and looked forward to, a period in time when the heathenish Gentile nations would eventually accept the glorious Gospel of truth and would therefore graciously receive salvation. Notwithstanding, before this marvelous change would happen, Messiah had to come and defeat Satan, that great deceiver of “the nations,” and consequently forcefully remove him from his previous haughty place of complete deception of the nations.

Matthew 12:17-21 explains how through the person of Christ, and by His First Coming, the Gentile nations would finally believe. He said all this after the religious Jews had just threatened to kill Him. He asserts that it was spoken by Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 42:1-3), saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] trust.”

Christ’s rejection by his own house (Israel) saw Him turn to the Gentiles and the formerly outcast. He was now going to invade the devil’s house and acquire a spoil. Immediately after the Jews turned on Him in this story He delivers one of Satan’s household – a demon possessed man – thus illustrating that there was a darkened people out there that would come to faith in Christ. He used this man who belonged to the devil’s own house (kingdom) to impress the direction of the Gospel from hereon. Now, my main point is this: this reading expressly declares “in his name shall the Gentiles trust.” Using the Premil argument: all the Gentiles must trust, or this cannot apply today. What I am saying is, if you were to apply this argument namely that the fact that the vast bulk of Gentiles still remain deceived is evidence why we can’t be in the millennium now then we must (if we are consistent) apply the same rule to this statement to show that it can’t be relevant to today. It cannot relate to the here-and-now because the majority of Gentiles still don’t trust God. Of course, that would be preposterous. Such a statement is a general reference to the removal of the veil deceiving the Gentiles as a whole after the cross.

Even Caiaphas, the High Priest, speaking of the elect of God in the nation of Israel, prophesied in John 11:51-52, that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only (natural Israel), but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad (the Gentiles).”

Calvary is seen to be the event that caused the spiritual merging of the believing Jew and Gentile, and that demolished forever the distinction that separated them. Scripture demolishes the notion that God has two distinct peoples (Jews and Gentiles), which will come to Him in two different ways and in two different time periods. Such is not the case and will not be the case in the future. Notwithstanding, there may undoubtedly be a greater ingathering of Jews in the days preceding the glorious Second Advent than there previously has been since the cross, however, it will be through the sole mechanism ordained of God of God – the Church of Jesus Christ.

In John 12:31-33 Christ assuredly predicted shortly before He defeated the power of Satan at the cross, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. this he said, signifying what death he should die (John 12:31-33).

This passage plainly highlights the powerful victory that was wrought at Calvary and the deep impact that it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Moreover it highlights the significance it had for the whole world. Jesus here plainly predicted the opening of salvation to all nations, saying, “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” Therefore, the glorious life-giving Gospel of Christ that the nation of Israel alone once enjoyed (at the time of this prophecy) would now soon (through the cross) be graciously offered unto, and received by, a previously blinded Gentile world.

The vehicle He would use would be the New Testament Church. Jesus said, in Luke 24:46-47, thus it behoved Christ to suffer (through the cross), and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations [Gr. ethnos], beginning at Jerusalem.

Christ had to first suffer and die in order to fulfil Scripture and defeat the awesome global control of Satan over the nations, before the Gentiles could ever enter into the full realization of salvation. The empowerment for the Church came at Pentecost as Christ promised in Acts 1:8. The passage records, ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” This ‘kicked in’ after Pentecost, after the heavenly power to perform such arrived.

Matthew’s account in Matthew 28:19 says, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [Gr. ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Throughout the OT the prophets spoke of "the nations" or "all nations" coming to God at a particular time. The term were interchangeable with the term strangers / heathen and Gentiles.

The Gospel was now no longer limited to the small nation of Israel but was rather, through Christ, opened up to all the nations. This is revealed in the great commission to the Church, after His resurrection, in Mark 16:15-16, where Christ declared, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,610
2,867
MI
✟442,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Maybe why it is baffling you is because you're assuming some things that are not even my position. For one thing you have some of it wrong about me. I do not take everything in Revelation 19 literally. I do not take any of that to mean regionally. I basically interpret it similar to how Amil does, that it symbolizes the wicked throughout the planet meeting their end once Christ returns, except I don't have it paralleling anything in Revelation 20. Plus, In my view not everyone would be in the beast's army or Christ's army. Amils have them being in one or the other, thus no exceptions, thus no survivors remaining unless they were in Christ's army.
What allows for any unbelievers to survive His return? What is the difference between them and the ones He destroys? I don't think you understand what Jesus said when He said this:

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

You might think that there is some third group besides the saved and lost, but that is not how God/Jesus sees it. To Him, anyone who is not with Him is against Him. There is no in-between state to Him. So, what basis is there to think that anyone who is not with Him will be spared when He comes? We already know from 2 Peter 3:8-9 that He is being patient with people and giving them time to repent. Once He comes it will be too late. He's not giving anyone any more time to repent at that point. The following passage makes it very clear that there will be only 2 fates for people when Jesus returns at the end of the age:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Notice that Jesus references "all kinds of fish" that are separated into only two groups: good and bad. They figuratively represent the righteous and the wicked. There is no third group. As Jesus said in the similar parable of the wheat and tares "the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" at that point. Meanwhile, the wicked will be cast into the fire. How can you think there are any mortal survivors at that point in light of the passage above?

But I do tend to take the feasting birds literally since there are obviously going to be dead bodies throughout the entire planet and someone has to clean that mess up.
It makes no sense to take part of it figuratively, but not that part as well. It's either all figurative in terms of the description of the destruction or it's all literal. To mix and match the way you do shows doctrinal bias on your part. There won't be dead bodies all over the place since fire will be coming down on them. I don't think birds eat ashes.

But even if that isn't literal as well, and maybe it isn't though I tend to think it is, one doesn't use imagery of feasting birds if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames to begin with.
Who are you to say that? What is that based on? Why can you not understand that the symbolism does not have to resemble the symbols? The beast is clearly a figurative entity, right? Do you think what the beast represents in reality resembles an actual beast with seven heads and ten horns? Of course not. So, if the destruction that occurs at Christ's return is described figuratively, then there's no requirement for the symbolic description to resemble the actual destruction. If it did then what would even be the point of the symbolism?

That would equal cremation if true, thus totally pointless to even bring feasting birds into the picture.
That's a baseless comment. Symbols do not have to resemble what they symbolize. This is an elementary concept and you still don't get it.

And besides that, birds would be falling out of the sky themselves from all the smoke and heat. Imagery of feasting birds would not be used in a scenario like that.
Says you, but who would think that a kingdom/world empire would be represented by a beast with seven heads and ten horns? Satan is represented by a dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Does Satan look like a dragon with seven heads and ten horns in reality? Clearly not. So, your argument here is weak and invalid.

But you can't seem to grasp for some reason, that it comes across nonsensical that imagery involving feasting birds would be being used if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.
What's nonsensical to me is you thinking that symbols have to resemble what they symbolize. No, they do not. In Revelation 1 the seven stars Jesus holds represent angels. Do stars resemble angels? The seven candlesticks represent the seven churches of the ancient province of Asia. Do candlesticks resemble churches? You clearly don't understand how symbolism works.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,610
2,867
MI
✟442,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is what I said in that post---Therefore, if the flood engulfed the entire planet with literal water, which is indeed true , so must the entire earth be engulfed in flames. I disagree with that logic.

I was not arguing against it being literally true concerning the flood. My argument was, that since the flood was literally true, thus it involved literal water engulfing the entire planet, that this then makes it equally true that it will involve fire engulfing the entire planet this time around. I disagree that it would mean that it has be true that the fire has to be literal because the water was literal.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Animals are flesh, are they not? At least during the flood God managed to find a way to preserve some of them. How is He going to do that this time around if He uses fire rather than water, and that there is no ark to board any animals on, and even if there was, it would still be nonsensical to think someone could build something that could withstand immense heat and flames of fire?

The verse above says---and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh---yet, if literal fire is meant, it indeed would destroy all flesh involving the animal kingdom. There would be no such thing as animals after that. But God said He would never destroy all flesh again, and this interpretation has Him literally doing that, the fact this would wipe out every single animal on the planet, thus destroying all flesh in regards to them.
God did not say that He would never destroy all flesh again. Your Premil glasses are clouding your vision again. It clearly says that He would never destroy all flesh with a flood again. That doesn't mean He can't do it with fire.

I wonder if Amils have any pets they care about? Or is it only Premils that might have pets they care about? The reason I wonder, imagine having pets you care about, and tomorrow the 2nd coming happens, thus these pets are burned to death because the entire planet goes up in flames. Who cares, right? At least it didn't happen to me. So what if the pets I loved get burned up once I'm raptured. That's their problem not mine.
Are we supposed to interpret scripture based on emotion and how we want things to be or based on how God says they will be? Do you equate animals with humans or something? Do you think animals have eternal souls? You seem to be more concerned about pets being destroyed at that time than unsaved loved ones or friends since you said nothing about them. This is not the way to interpret scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,610
2,867
MI
✟442,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It must be boring to be an Amil sometimes. We have this entire Bible to explore and Amils give the impression that only the NT is relevant.
This statement really shows your ignorance regarding Amil. It's completely false. The Old Testament is awesome. However, the New Testament shines light on what was purposely made obscure in the Old Testament. That's what you don't get. It isn't that we ignore the OT as you think we do. We use the NT to understand it.

For example, who would have any idea that the promises that God made to Abraham and his seed, as recorded in the OT, were made to Christ (Galatians 3:16) without the New Testament telling us so? And that the promises extend to those who belong to Christ as well (Gal 3:29)? For whatever reason, you don't recognize that the New Testament is intended to shine light on the Old Testament and not the other way around as Premils tend to believe.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,610
2,867
MI
✟442,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And your support for this is? This is right after the pit is opened up, the 5th Trumpet. This is during the judgment of the sheep and goats, and Christ is already on earth. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 already happened.
There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 will already have happened before 2 Peter 3:10-12. They are speaking of the same event. Paul indicated that the day of the Lord will bring "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". Peter indicated that the day of the Lord will bring about the burning up of the heavens and the earth. It's not hard to deduce that the "sudden destruction" that Paul wrote about will be by way of fire coming down on the earth. Only doctrinal bias would cause someone to claim that 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are not talking about the same event.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Only those in Christ are able to stand at the appearing of his Glory.

What about infants? They wouldn't even be old enough to be in Christ since they wouldn't be able to make that decision on their own. The same with children up to a certain age. And what about anyone severely mentally challenged? How can they be in Christ if they don't even have the ability to decide that for themselves? During Noah's flood, all of these that I brought up, infants, children and the severely mentally challenged, they would not have been spared. They would have drowned with everyone else.

If God literally engulfs the planet with fire this time around, is He going to show mercy this time though during Noah's flood He didn't, by Him sparing infants, children up to a certain age and the severely mentally challenged? If yes, now all of a sudden you are proposing there might be exceptions, but when I propose something like that, in light of Zechariah 14, for instance, these exceptions don't count, even though I can prove with the Bible the exceptions I propose, and that you can't prove with the Bible the exceptions you propose, assuming you might think He spares infants and the others I brought up?
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,610
2,867
MI
✟442,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Amils, such as you and SJ, think it makes more sense to mass deceive the masses that are already deceived, rather than to mass deceive the masses that are no longer deceived.
Why do I have to tell you over and over again that it isn't our belief that his purpose when he is loosed is not to go out to deceive people that are already deceived as if they weren't already deceived? That obviously wouldn't make any sense and it is NOT what we believe, as I've told you many times already. It is YOUR understanding of his binding that it means he can't do anything including deceive, not ours.

Instead, my understanding is that he will deceive a number of people who are not yet deceived, resulting in the falling away that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2 and his goal will be to unite them and those who are already deceived into actively opposing the church with the goal of destroying it. That is what I believe is figuratively portrayed in Revelation 20:7-9.

I think he will largely succeed in uniting unbelievers against the church because he won't have to contend with the preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit in the same way he has been for the past almost 2,000 years. Before Satan's little season takes place, Satan's efforts to destroy the church never gets anywhere because he has had to contend with the Holy Spirit at every turn. But God will remove that restraint for a little season and I believe it will appear during that time, to those who don't know any better, that the church is losing the fight and will end up being destroyed. We know better because Christ said that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matt 16:18). But, then Christ will come as a thief in the night to destroy all those who oppose Him and His church and it will catch them off guard.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,609
2,107
Texas
✟204,831.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This statement really shows your ignorance regarding Amil. It's completely false. The Old Testament is awesome. However, the New Testament shines light on what was purposely made obscure in the Old Testament. That's what you don't get. It isn't that we ignore the OT as you think we do. We use the NT to understand it.

For example, who would have any idea that the promises that God made to Abraham and his seed, as recorded in the OT, were made to Christ (Galatians 3:16) without the New Testament telling us so? And that the promises extend to those who belong to Christ as well (Gal 3:29)? For whatever reason, you don't recognize that the New Testament is intended to shine light on the Old Testament and not the other way around as Premils tend to believe.


Fair enough. I don't disagree with you here. Yet, where is an Amil's interest in some of the things I bring up, such as what I brought up in Ezekiel 47 earlier? Revelation records waters being plagued with all sorts of disasters, therefore killing those living in the waters. Ezekiel 47 records waters being healed. How can Ezekiel 47 apply to a time prior to the plagues recorded in Revelation? How can Ezekiel 47 not involve the new earth? If they are fishing in the new earth, this indicates they are eating the fish, which indicates death is still taking place, at least in regards to the fish. Yet, SG apparently finds it unreasonable that I apply this to the new earth. Thus, what may have caused me to make that comment in the first place, the one you quoted above.
 
Upvote 0