Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching. That is because the tenses expose Premil.

Jesus is reigning now

For example, Scripture shows that Jesus is reigning now over creation, His people and all His enemies. It demonstrates this to be in the present ongoing tense. Most Premillennialists reject this as it messes with their belief-system. However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: “he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 'For he hath put' (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

This proves that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active, infinitive sense. It shows that He will reign over His enemies until they are finally put down. This passage confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” This couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:20-22 tells us that God hath “raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And 'hath put' (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet.”

Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

Hebrews 2:7-8 agrees: “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 'Thou hast put all things in subjection' (aorist active indicative) under his feet. 'For in that he put all in subjection' (aorist active indicative) under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

This confirms: Jesus is the supreme power. He is the sovereign controller over all creation. He carries all authority today as He rules over everything.

Believers are reigning now

Another example (of many) how Premillennialists reject the tenses in the original Greek, involves the redeemed currently functioning as kings and priests. The Bible depicts God’s people as reigning now - both in life and in death.

Romans 5:17 confirms, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

This tells us that those who experience Christ in this life reign by Christ. The phrase “shall reign” is in the future tense because the reigning follows salvation. But we should not miss that this is expressly and unquestionably speaking about "life."

Ephesians 2:5-6 says, speaking of God, “Even when we were dead in sins, 'hath quickened us together' (aorist, active, indicative), with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And 'hath raised us up together' (aorist, active, particle), and 'made us sit together' (aorist, active, indicative), in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Believers are now citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21, Hebrews 12:22-23). They are currently seated in heavenly places far above principalities and powers with Christ. They rule and reign with Jesus in life and they rule and reign with Jesus in death. Our seating with Christ is a position of authority, honor, and triumph.

Ephesians 1:3 corroborates this, saying, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'who hath blessed' (aorist, active, indicative), us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

We are seated in heavenly places because He is! Remember, we are in Him! We are one with Him! We are spiritually united to Him! His life is our life. We are hidden in Him. He is our legal head! The body is interconnected with the head. The New Testament repeatedly states that we are what we are “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.”

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice and intercede for the people. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil these spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows that we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” and are reigning in delegated authority. This will be finally realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s coming.

The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

Through His glorious victory, we are qualified to sit with Him in heavenly places. Of course, that is our spiritual standing. We should never forget, there is a big difference between our standing and our state. Upon death, the dead in Christ know this heavenly reality as a state. They have overcome and now reign "in Christ." God also revealed Christ’s current reign to His servant John when He promised the obedient Laodiceans of Asia Minor in. Jesus confirms in Revelation 3:21: “To him that overcometh (present active particle) will I grant (future indicative active) to sit (aorist, active infinitive), with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am (aorist active indicative) set down with my Father in his throne.”

Our position and authority in Christ is shown to be an accomplished fact. It has already happened. That position was attained for us through Jesus Christ. God enthroned us with Jesus in the heavenly realms when we were saved. Our position as believers is therefore one of joint-seating with Christ in heavenly places.

From this passage we explicitly see: Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured this through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Our Savior had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man - namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfill Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought. The resurrection is central to Christ’s current victorious reign. Through this and His current glorious heavenly reign, He has enabled those that die in Christ to reign with Him in glory.

Believers now function in all the benefits, blessings and authority that comes with being "in Christ." Christians literally and spiritually righteously reign with Jesus upon high (whether in spirit or in reality). They exercise divine power over the dark spiritual realm. The dead in Christ do not suddenly lose their authority upon death. No, rather, their position is enhanced as they rise to rule with Jesus. Basically, because He reigns we reign!

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfillment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

Revelation 20:4-5 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

This is talking about the intermediate state currently. The dead in Christ are shown to be no longer in Abraham’s bosom since the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven reigning with Christ. Because Christ conquered we conquer, because He reigns we now reign. Notably, as Satan was banished from heaven, the elect were welcomed.

The reigning saints evidently continue to exist in the presence of God. Unbelievers on the other hand are separated from God during this current age. The wicked are cut off from God. Moreover, verse 4 depicts a picture of the righteous dead currently reigning with Christ in the heavenly abode in their disembodied state, whereas the wicked (who are identified as “the rest”) are simply described as “lived not.”

Believers are already partaking in the first resurrection

A final example will reinforce my thesis. John is describing the current reality of believers already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The first resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5). The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

The duplicity of this subject is that everywhere else the presence tense is used, Premillennialists have no difficulty in applying it to the present, when it does not interfere with their pet doctrine. Jesus parallels Revelation 20:6 in John 3:16, teaching: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish (or experience the second death), but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

We see victory over the second death in this age through the new birth. Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It wins us victory over eternal death. It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (or experience the second death); but is passed from death unto life.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54 & 58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath (present active indicative) eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (present active particle) in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death).”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

Here is more proof that our escape from “the second death” is not future tense (as Premillennialists claim) but presence tense.

 

[Acts29]

The problem seems to be in assuming everything God said always applied immediately. God is eternal and speaks outside of time. He spoke in the past tense to describe many things thousands of years before they did/will come to pass. For example in your OP:

However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: “he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

At the time this prophecy is fulfilled, it will be in the present tense. I'm not trying to make the case for or against premil, just simply stating the case for recognition of God being outside of time. Let me give you an example from Psalms 22. (clipped short a bit for brevity)

Psalms 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

Most of this chapter is written in the past tense by David about 1000 years before it was fulfilled in Christ. Picture Jesus on the cross. From that exact vantage point comes this prophecy. All written as if Jesus was on the cross exactly at the time the prophecy was given.

Taking the prophecies in the NT as if they applied immediately would be like trying to make Psalm 22 about David. God is eternal and He can speak FROM any point in time He wants. Not knowing WHEN a prophecy applies is a major reason there is so much division in church doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

Believers are already partaking in the first resurrection

A final matter may prove our point, John is describing the current reality of believers are already partaking in the first resurrection in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.” Our part in the first resurrection, shown throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5).

Your point is disproved because it is not a general resurrection in Revelation 4-6. It is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4. Have you been beheaded ?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The problem seems to be in assuming everything God said always applied immediately. God is eternal and speaks outside of time. He spoke in the past tense to describe many things thousands of years before they did/will come to pass. For example in your OP:

However, 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 states: “he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. “

At the time this prophecy is fulfilled, it will be in the present tense. I'm not trying to make the case for or against premil, just simply stating the case for recognition of God being outside of time. Let me give you an example from Psalms 22. (clipped short a bit for brevity)

Psalms 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He trusted in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

Most of this chapter is written in the past tense by David about 1000 years before it was fulfilled in Christ. Picture Jesus on the cross. From that exact vantage point comes this prophecy. All written as if Jesus was on the cross exactly at the time the prophecy was given.

Taking the prophecies in the NT as if they applied immediately would be like trying to make Psalm 22 about David. God is eternal and He can speak FROM any point in time He wants. Not knowing WHEN a prophecy applies is a major reason there is so much division in church doctrine.

I was actually talking about the Greek tenses, if you would have read what i had presented. The Hebrew only has two tenses; perfect and imperfect. There is no present tense per-se. A perfect tense is actually a completed action and an imperfect tense is an action that is not completed. So, your argument is moot. Also, you failed to address the evidence I presented. Your own opinion is not a rebuttal. The Scriptures override that! The text and the present tense still stands.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your point is disproved because it is not a general resurrection in Revelation 4-6. It is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4. Have you been beheaded ?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That is speaking of the redeemed in spirit in heaven now. It proves my point. It is present and ongoing. This also exposes the Premil theory. There are numerous examples that refute Premil on this subject.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your point is disproved because it is not a general resurrection in Revelation 4-6. It is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4. Have you been beheaded ?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

[Douggg]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given (aorist active indicative) unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John is viewing it happening in panorama he was being presented.

That is speaking of the redeemed in spirit in heaven now. That proves my point. It is present and ongoing. This also exposes the Premil theory. There are numerous examples that refute Premil on this subject.

No, it doesn't. Everyone who's soul is in heaven is not from being beheaded.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

John is viewing it happening in panorama he was being presented.


No, it doesn't. Everyone who's soul is in heaven is not from being beheaded.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

You totally reinforce my thesis. Once again, you reject the Greek tense in order to sustain Premil. This is another reason why one should reject Premil. The evidence above is consistent, contextual and irrefutable.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your point is disproved because it is not a general resurrection in Revelation 4-6.

The First Resurrection is NOT a general resurrection. It is being born again in Christ. Made alive from first death... in Christ!

It is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4.

The false doctrine of premillennialism. Nothing in Revelation 20 is talking about the "great tribulation Saints."

Have you been beheaded ?

Douggg... The "beheading" is not necessarily physical. We, Christians, as God's witnesses on Earth, have been beheaded FOR THE WITNESSES or TESTIMONY of Jesus. We have been killed all the time because people hate us for speaking the Truth. Didn't you realize that God compared hate with murder?

1 John 3:15

(15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Psalm 44:22

(22) Yet for your sake, we are killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to the slaughtered.

 

[Douggg]

You totally reinforce my thesis. Once again, you reject the Greek tense in order to sustain Premil. This is another reason why one should reject Premil. The evidence above is consistent, contextual and irrefutable.

You are trying to make an argument over nothing. What does "beheaded" mean to you ?

 

[Douggg]

The First Resurrection is NOT a general resurrection. It is being born again in Christ. Made alive from first death... in Christ!

We are discussing the first resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.

Douggg... The "beheading" is not necessarily physical. We, Christians, as God's witnesses on Earth, have been beheaded FOR THE WITNESSES or TESTIMONY of Jesus. We have been killed all the time because people hate us for speaking the Truth. Didn't you realize that God compared hate with murder?

1 John 3:15

(15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Psalm 44:22

(22) Yet for your sake, we are killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to the slaughtered.

It is not speaking about the metaphorical sense in Revelation 20:4-6. It is specific. Things that will take place during the time of the beast, who will be in power for 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are trying to make an argument over nothing. What does "beheaded" mean to you ?

It is a picture of the martyrs in heaven now. It is present tense. You can try and change that to suit your doctrine, but it will never change the textual evidence.

 

[Douggg]

It is a picture of the martyrs in heaven now. It is present tense. You can try and change that to suit your doctrine, but it will never change the textual evidence.

The textual evidence and the visual evidence that anyone can see and observe is that the beast has not come to power yet - to rule the world for 42 months - which during his time the martyrs will be killed for those specific reasons in Revelation 20:4.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The textual evidence and the visual evidence that anyone can see and observe is that the beast has not come to power yet - to rule the world for 42 months - which during his time the martyrs will be killed for those specific reasons in Revelation 20:4.

No. You are manipulating the text to suit your beliefs. But your beliefs have been refuted multiple times here by many posters. When that happens you normally resort to your own crafted charts. These have been shown to be faulty and untrustworthy. It is the text that you are repeatedly fighting with not Amils.

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that wicked one, have been about for 2,000 years+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Other titles include, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 years+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

Revelation 17:11-13 further enlarges, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

A plain reading of these passages proves that, whatever the beast truly represents, he/it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation. The beast cannot therefore merely be a last few years end-time phenomenon, as some would have us believe. After all, he existed before John wrote Revelation. We learn through the apostle’s first century testimony that the beast expressly “was” (past tense). In fact, the passage mentions this fact three times (twice in verse 8, and once in verse 11). Therefore, he existed before John. He also existed at the time of John – who said of his day, the beast “is” (present tense). John then explained that the beast would continue after his day, saying it “shall” be (future tense). In fact, Scripture tells us that the beast, and the false prophet, will only finally be destroyed at the all-consummating second coming of the Lord, where they will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). Why would this world system be destroyed at Christ’s coming and then re-emerge in a future millennium as the sand of the sea?

Having said all this, the terminology that follows is strange and appears contradictory, saying, “is not, and yet is.” One could naturally be tempted to reason: the beast either is or else it isn’t, although, this reading plainly says that the beast both “is” and “is not” at the same time. Whilst the import of the reading indicates that the beast existed in John’s day, it would seem to suggest that it did so in a restrained or restricted manner. How else can we marry the two facts that the beast “is” and “is not” at the same time. The system represented by the beast must have been around in John’s day, albeit in a curtailed manner – a bit like a prisoner that has full movement within a prison, although, he is restricted to particular areas at given times and must continually abide by the careful rules and guidelines that govern his movements within the penitentiary. He has freedom – to a degree, but in another hand he is not free to do as he wishes. The bottom line is: the prisoner would be viewed by every sane observer as bound.

The beast “was” because Satan and his kingdom operated long before Christ ever invaded his territory at the first Advent. He is deemed “is not” because, through Christ's successful completion of His Father’s assignment on earth He roundly defeated Satan in his own backyard and spiritually spoiled his goods and influence. Christ instigated the great triumphant global advance upon the kingdom of darkness. This has inflicted great injury and damage upon the antichrist spirit for near 2,000 years. Christ went forth conquering and to conquer through the successful spread of the Gospel to the nations. The fact is the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.

The beast “is not” because Satan no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

This passage supports the idea that antichrist has existed throughout the intra-Advent period. John describes that time as the last days.

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”

Here is more proof that antichrist existed back in Bible times. This fits with what Revelation says of the beast. John testifies: “even now already is it in the world.” Antichrist cannot obviously be some wicked leader that is raised up to reign in the last 7 years, last 3 ½ years or last few years before the Lord's return. He must be an influence or agency that has been working in the hearts of evil men for many centuries. Evidently, no wicked human has survived since John's day!

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

Antichrist is clearly not limited to one man at the end as Futurists argue. Antichrist covers the full gamut of those belonging to the devil.

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity [Gr. lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

The first thing we here is that “the mystery of iniquity” was alive and kicking 2000 years ago. Paul confirms what Revelation 17:8 and Revelation 17:11-13 is expressing that this entity was functioning in his day. This baleful influence is not some has evidently been around for a long time. Saying all this, he is depicted as being restrained in this New Testament age up until the end when the restraint will be taken off him. This is clearly talking about his ongoing existence throughout the new covenant era albeit in a curtailed manner. This must confirm the restrained consequences that enveloped the whole kingdom of darkness as a result of the earthly ministry of Christ.

 

[TribulationSigns]

We are discussing the first resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.

So, I know that. It's still not a general resurrection.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Obviously, you do not understand what the beast is, the image or mark of the beast, and how it can cause many not worshipping his image be killed. Let review Revelation 13 a bit.

It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh-driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast, his driving force is to devour. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit. I also believe that Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets who he empowers to devour.

Revelation 13:1-2

• "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
• And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Without going into too much detail, the sea often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church becomes spiritually Babylon, these 10 kings will reign with him for this short period (little season KJV) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Chris. At this time when Satan is loosed (the would healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.

Revelation 13:3

• "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Christ of course wounded him by the cross, and also looses or heals that wound after all Israel are sealed, so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.

Revelation 13:4-5

• "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
• And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Under authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds, and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.

Psalms 68:20-22

• "He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
• But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
• The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"

Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.

And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan over 2000 years ago, but his loosing after the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks is his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.

Revelation 13:6-7

• "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
• And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.

Revelation 13:8-9

• "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• If any man have an ear, let him hear."

All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo or Antichrist instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, thinking they do God service.

Revelation 13:10-11

• "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
• And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the messenger of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan.

The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 13:12-14

• "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
• And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
• And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, Christ was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.

Revelation 13:15-16

• " And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
• And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses) to be killed. Those remaining as judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying their will belongs to them, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist.

Revelation 13:17-18

• "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
• Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Not the number of "a" man as may be written in your "translation," but the original says it is the number "of Man," signifying the lawless man (man of sin) or man of lawlessness. The buying and selling signifies the work of the church, and no one can work there except those who have been spiritually marked slaves of Satan. The mark God tells us is 666, the number of man (not a man).

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 13:6-7

• "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
• And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.

Revelation 13:4-5

• "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
• And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Under authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds, and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.

So you are claiming the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 and the time of the beast as being after the 1000 years which the martyred tribulation saints are resurrected to rule with Jesus - after being martyred for not taking the mark, the number, the name of the beast, nor worshipping the image of the beast.

That does not make sense.

Revelation 20:4 the martyred great tribulation saints, for not taking the beast number, his name, his mark are resurrected. To reign and rule with Jesus a thousand years.

then after the thousand years....

you claim the beast reigns for 42 months which he will kill them who do not take his mark, number, name, nor worship his image.

Your interpretation is severely flawed. The beast and the false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire before the thousand years begin.

 

[Douggg]

No. You are manipulating the text to suit your beliefs. But your beliefs have been refuted multiple times here by many posters. When that happens you normally resort to your own crafted charts. These have been shown to be faulty and untrustworthy. It is the text that you are repeatedly fighting with not Amils.

Address the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 that the beast rules the world.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your point is disproved because it is not a general resurrection in Revelation 4-6. It is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4. Have you been beheaded ?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, you're just going to ignore all the passages he shared that show Christ reigning now and interpret this passage in such a way that contradicts all those other passages?

You believe that another mass bodily resurrection will have already taken place years before when you believe the first resurrection takes place which contradicts the fact that this describes those who have part in the first resurrection, not a second resurrection.

If the first resurrection had to do with a mass bodily resurrection then why would you not think that passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 describe that?

How do you reconcile your view with what Paul taught here:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Here Paul gave the order of bodily resurrections. Christ's was the first, as it says in other scripture as well (Acts 26:23, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and then next in order are those who belong to Christ when He comes. Why did he not mention another time when believers will be resurrected if that was going to happen? Instead, he taught that all who belong to Christ will be resurrected when He comes again. Why do you not interpret Revelation 20 in light of this?

How do you reconcile the following with your interpretation of Revelation 20?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Here, Jesus spoke of a future time or event when all of the dead will be resurrected. Why do you have them being resurrected at two (or three) entirely different times (events)?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are trying to make an argument over nothing. What does "beheaded" mean to you ?

Showing what tense (past, present, future) that scripture is meant to be understood in is nothing to you?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your point is disproved because it is not a general resurrection in Revelation 4-6. It is a resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4. Have you been beheaded ?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

For some reason you overlooked the fact that it also mentions those who sat upon thrones and judgment was given to them. It's not only referring to people who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. John is seeing souls of dead believers in heaven, so I think it's reasonable to assume that judgment/authority is given to all believers when they are in heaven. Paul taught that believers will judge the world.

1 Corinthians 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Also, you need to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that doesn't contradict other scripture. For one thing scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20-22, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). You can't ignore that when interpreting Revelation 20.

Also, scripture repeatedly refers to all believers being resurrected at the same time (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, John 5:28-29). Having believers being resurrected on multiple different occasions, as you do, contradicts all those passages which teach one general resurrection of all the dead in Christ.

Why are you so wiling to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts what other scripture says about the first resurrection and what other scripture teaches about a one-time general resurrection event of all of the dead in Christ at His second coming when the last trumpet sounds?

You also completely disregard all the scripture passages which teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection long ago. You just interpret Revelation 20 in isolation without taking any other scripture into account and without caring if your interpretation contradicts other scripture.