Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[DavidPT]

It's so baffling to me that you interpret Revelation 19, contained within a highly symbolic book, literally, but interpret 2 Peter 3, contained within a mostly literal book, symbolically.

Maybe why it is baffling you is because you're assuming some things that are not even my position. For one thing you have some of it wrong about me. I do not take everything in Revelation 19 literally. I do not take any of that to mean regionally. I basically interpret it similar to how Amil does, that it symbolizes the wicked throughout the planet meeting their end once Christ returns, except I don't have it paralleling anything in Revelation 20. Plus, In my view not everyone would be in the beast's army or Christ's army. Amils have them being in one or the other, thus no exceptions, thus no survivors remaining unless they were in Christ's army.

But I do tend to take the feasting birds literally since there are obviously going to be dead bodies throughout the entire planet and someone has to clean that mess up. But even if that isn't literal as well, and maybe it isn't though I tend to think it is, one doesn't use imagery of feasting birds if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames to begin with. That would equal cremation if true, thus totally pointless to even bring feasting birds into the picture. And besides that, birds would be falling out of the sky themselves from all the smoke and heat. Imagery of feasting birds would not be used in a scenario like that.

But you can't seem to grasp for some reason, that it comes across nonsensical that imagery involving feasting birds would be being used if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Maybe why it is baffling you is because you're assuming some things that are not even my position. For one thing you have some of it wrong about me. I do not take everything in Revelation 19 literally. I do not take any of that to mean regionally. I basically interpret it similar to how Amil does, that it symbolizes the wicked throughout the planet meeting their end once Christ returns, except I don't have it paralleling anything in Revelation 20. Plus, In my view not everyone would be in the beast's army or Christ's army. Amils have them being in one or the other, thus no exceptions, thus no survivors remaining unless they were in Christ's army.

But I do tend to take the feasting birds literally since there are obviously going to be dead bodies throughout the entire planet and someone has to clean that mess up. But even if that isn't literal as well, and maybe it isn't though I tend to think it is, one doesn't use imagery of feasting birds if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames to begin with. That would equal cremation if true, thus totally pointless to even bring feasting birds into the picture. And besides that, birds would be falling out of the sky themselves from all the smoke and heat. Imagery of feasting birds would not be used in a scenario like that.

But you can't seem to grasp for some reason, that it comes across nonsensical that imagery involving feasting birds would be being used if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

That is not so. You do not take Revelation 19 literal (like you do not take the other texts under discussion literal). I do not believe you are looking at this text objectively. You have to manipulate the sacred text in order to facilitate Premil, as the doctrine is forbidden by what is written, if one is to take a literal approach. You invent a company of mortals too wicked to be raptured but also too good to be destroyed. Who is this company? We all know they do not exist. You have invented them to sustain your theology.

Could you maybe tell us who is outside of this comprehensive description of the party that is completely destroyed, namely "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great"? Amils take this literally and interpret this as everyone. What say you?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I wonder why Amils don't appear to know this? They are the ones that are always claiming Premils have a big satan and a small God, though it appears that they have that backwards. It is Amil that has a big satan and a small God. It is Amil that needs satan to be bound in order for the spreading of the gospel not to fail. Premils recognize that the gospel still gets spread regardless what satan and his minions do to try and prevent that from happening.



Yet some more good points you raise. And like I have already pointed out myself, Amil has the masses satan deceives after the thousand years being already deceived before he is even supposed to deceive them. They are obviously already deceived during the thousand years if assuming Amil.






Some good points here as well.

The only reason you keep repeating this is because you duck around the biblical rebuttals that address these erroneous false charges against Amil and which expose the Premil position. This has been your pattern for a long time.

I have already told you: "This is a moot argument. For the record, deceived people can be deceived over and over again. Sorry you do not believe that."

Amils hold to what they do because the Scripture clearly demonstrate that. That is something you cannot accept, and explains why you are Premil. Premil is based upon avoidance. We see this in every thread. You are fighting with the text on this matter. The earthly ministry of Christ is shown as the period that secured the binding of Satan. Through this victorious ministry, the great commission was instigated. This is clearly and repeatedly declared in the NT. Your struggle is therefore with Holy Writ not Amils.

I do not believe one will ever fully understand Revelation 20 until to see the seismic spiritual change that occurred to the Gentiles since and through the earthly ministry of Christ. You do not seem to see (or you choose to ignore in order to sustain your eschatological position) the ginormous contrast between the spiritual standing of the Gentiles in the OT and the NT. Before the First Advent, the Gospel was overwhelmingly contained within one small nation. Israel were the lone chosen people. After the cross this all changed. The Gentiles were enlightened to the truth and avoided the wonderful opportunity of encountering Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Before the cross the Gentiles are continually depicted as being ignorant, blind, in darkness and in rebellion. In the New Testament the Gentiles are said to be enlightened and trusting in God. These are obviously general sweeping statements. They are relative and comparative. Scripture is basically contrasting the wholesale darkness that cloaked the Gentiles in the Old Testament to the widespread evangelism of the New Testament era which saw the Gospel invade all nations and set countless millions free. From a handful of rare Gentile conversions, including one lone Gentile city, to the global spread and success of the great commission, we are looking at in an incredible success.

Gentiles are said here to have been “without God” and “without hope” before the cross. That was a horrible place to be. Even though these are sweeping statements, that did not mean all Gentiles were unsaved. They were not there are many examples of Gentiles encountering God in the Old Testament. They were general simplifications.

Acts 13:47 "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

A sweeping statement like this was not predicting that every single Gentile was going be saved. It was simply saying that God was going to enlighten the Gentile nations with his truth and remove the former deception that hung over the Gentiles as a general group through the preaching of the glorious gospel of Christ.

This is one of many reasons why many have abandoned Premil in recent years. It presents such a hopeless defeated doom-and-gloom message. It is the opposite to the victorious NT narrative. It is truly difficult to see Premils continually elevating the power and influence of Satan and belittling the power and influence of Christ. Amils and Postmils have a BIG Christ and a small devil. They have a triumphant Church and a subjugated devil.

If you can't recognize the success of the great commission and how that countless millions of Gentiles have experienced salvation and have been wonderfully set free from the bondage of sin since the cross that were once wholesale blind, damned and in spiritual darkness then you are not seeing the spiritual reality. The light has been shining bright for 2,000 yrs. His name is Jesus Christ (the light of the world). That light is now reflected in the global Church of Jesus Christ (His body) as they advance the good news of the Gospel to the nations (ethnos).

The light has been shining bright for 2,000 yrs. His name is Jesus Christ (the light of the world). That light is now reflected in the global Church of Jesus Christ (His body) as they advance the good news to the nations (ethnos).

The general broad deception that engulfed the Gentiles in ignorance and darkness is lifted. They now can receive if they believe. That does not suggest the majority will. Acts 13:46-48 says, “Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you [the Jews]: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the ethnos (or) Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the ethnos (or) Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the ethnos (or) Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

From Acts 10 (and the incident at Cornelius’ house) the Gospel was released unto the darkened Gentiles in a significant manner. They would now be brought from darkness of heathenism unto the light of Christ and His Gospel. The unequivocal words from Paul and Barnabas above confirm that the tide had markedly turned and that the Gospel had opened up to the blinded Gentiles in a very definite way. With the rare exception of the city of Nineveh, the Gospel was previously restricted to the small individual “nation” of natural Israel before the cross. The nations were totally engulfed with a blanket of darkness which was now being removed. The enforcement of Satan’s defeat at the cross would now be realized by the people of God through the faithful preaching of the Word of God. The devil would be spiritually bound as the kingdom of God advanced with the Gospel. This spiritual binding ensures he is unable to defeat the work of the Church of Jesus Christ evangelizing the nations. It was only after Calvary that the good news of salvation was widened out to embrace the heathen “nations” of the world.

For example, Romans 9:30 attests: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.”

Many times, the New Testament uses broad sweeping statements about the salvation of the Gentiles. This in Revelation 20 is just another parallel teaching. It is written throughout the New Testament. Satan has lost his wholesale deception of the Gentile nations. Revelation 20 is one of many general sweeping unqualified statements pertaining to the lifting of the deception on the Gentile nations. This started 2000 years ago. The first resurrection enabled the enlightenment of the nations.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (or) ethnos (or) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the OT. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Rev 20 is saying.

Those who were hitherto aliens and strangers to Almighty God, being outside of His intimate plan and purpose, are now graciously “made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

 

[Timtofly]

It's your opinion that Amils have an understanding contradicting Revelation 20. I believe your understanding contradicts Revelation 20. I think we've already established this long ago.

How does my reading the words and pointing out the context, contradict the context?

You are the one taking the chapter out of context using human opinion, called recap. Recap is just a man made theory. There is not even any historical proof, that Revelation 20 is a recap. It is still future. When you can prove millions were resurrected physically in the first century, and still alive on earth today, you will have historical proof, backing your claim.

How does my understanding that millions were resurrected contradict the point that millions were resurrected? No where in Revelation 20, does it state Christ's resurrection. It does state that many who just died, will be resurrected.

Revelation 20 also says Satan will be released after the 1000 years. So are you expecting the end of your intra-Advent period, with a clear indication, the whole world is not deceived, but soon will be? You can prove that for the last 1991 years the world has not been decieved, and all humanity has been directly obedient to God's will under the iron rod rule of Christ, Himself? People have lived as trees, for hundreds of years, living in the same place and never loosing their habitation due to war, according to the corroboration of OT prophecy? When a person dies at 100 they are still considered a child. Only sinners die because they have been rebellious children?

Or do you also have to symbolize OT prophecy to get it to fit your symbolic imagination of NT prophecy?

What we have established is your interpretation contradicts the context of Revelation 20. That is why there are different understandings. You have yet to prove my understanding contradicts Revelation 19, 20, and 21. Of course your understanding is not context. It is based on human reasoning called recap. The context is the logical chronological flow of Revelation. The opinion is that there is no chronological narrative, but an extra biblical view called recap, not stated by John in the text, nor logically necessary to understand the context. Many can see the context. Even you claim, that you used to accept the context. Now you do not. Now you accept an opposing contradictory view point.

 

[Timtofly]

That's your opinion. I personally see the restraining of wickedness that Paul wrote about in 2 Thessalonians 2 as relating to Satan's binding. You don't. So be it.

You agree that wickedness has been restrained, and the last 1991 years have been harmonious, without sin, death, and war? You associate that with Satan's binding?

I associate that with Satan's binding as well. Just as a future 1000 year time period, and not the last 1991 years. Who has proof of this total eradication of darkness?

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. Is that what I said? Not at all. Why do you say ridiculous things like this? You have no credibility because you often say completely ludicrous things like this. Amil is not based solely on Revelation 20 at all. Instead, we always say that we interpret Revelation 20 in light of other, more clear scripture, that isn't contained within a highly symbolic book like Revelation.

Just pointing out that it also sounds ridiculous when Amil say that about Premil.

Premil can apply reality to this alledged highly symbolic book. Amil just pile on more symbolism and idealism, which cannot be related to actual history one iota.

 

[Timtofly]

You need to learn the definition of the word "fact". You are confusing it with your OPINION.

It is my opinion that Revelation contains chapters 19 and 20? In your opinion, what is the fact other than 19 and 20 are there in black and white? Are the words that everyone reads, my opinion or just there already as a solid fact? My opinion is taking the words as written, and not changing a thing. Your opinion is that these words are too symbolic and need human opinion to straighten out reader's opinions before they can solidify, so all fact is gone and only human opinion is left.

 

[Timtofly]

That for sure would be true, regardless the length of day of the Lord, that it doesn't also leave like a thief in the night. But even so, the heaven and earth still have to pass away during the day of the Lord.

If the day of the Lord equals the thousand years, we have to keep in mind that the thousand years have an end. Once the thousand years end so would the day of the Lord end, assuming this scenario. It would then be satan's little season followed by the great white throne judgment. If the heaven and earth pass away after satan's little season just prior to the beginning of the great white throne judgment, or if it passes away after the time of the great white throne judgment, either way it still doesn't pass away during the day of the Lord, thus contradicting 2 Peter 3, assuming this scenario.

Heaven and earth pass away at the instant the "thief moment" happens. Do you think heaven and earth passed away 350 years after the Flood, when Noah died?

No, heaven and earth passed in the moment the Flood began and the ark was carried above the Flood. It took months and years to restore the new heavens and earth, even to allow Noah to leave the ark.

The time of Tribulation that is the greatest is after the Second Coming while Christ and the angels are gathering the final harvest. By the time of the winepress and all Adam's flesh and blood have come to an end, will the restoration be complete, and the Day of the Lord will be peaceful in a new heaven and earth setting for 1000 years. No where does it state it takes 1,000 years to restore the earth. The Sabbath Day is a day of rest where labor and death are non existent. Some would complain a rather boring and "unheard" of time period. Christ as Prince does not need 1000 years to accomplish the regeneration, but the effects of the regeneration will be enjoyed all the way to the end, and only then will Satan be allowed to deceive humanity in rebellion against Christ. Heaven and earth are restored at the Tribulation, not at the end of the Lord'sDay.

Only after Satan's deception and rebellion, will current reality as we know it, even a perfect Millennium will cease to exist. Heaven and earth passing because of God's judgment by water in Noah's day, and by fire in Christ's Day, are similar events where humanity kept living in the same reality. The GWT is when this reality stops, and a totally different reality begins. It is not a restoration, but a totally different experience altogether. Only the dead experience the GWT.

The living just experience reality literally changing around them, and they do not experience the GWT. There is no verse in Scripture stating the living stand before God. There are verses taken out of context, where opinion runs amok from actual Scripture, and people will believe anything other than reality.

 

[Timtofly]

To be in the Body of Christ, one have to believe in the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

When you claim that she "would have accepted the Atonement", are you claiming she believe that Christ died for her sins and rose again on the 3rd day for her justification?

Yes, was she in the room on the day of Pentecost, I would not know. But even 3000 recieved the Holy Spirit in one setting, so if Martha did not outright reject that Atonement she would have had the same experience as the rest of them.

The resurrection of Lazarus was only weeks, not years prior to the Cross. Martha, Mary, and Lazarus would still be alive in the time following the death, burial, and resurrection. Still a part of those blessed by Atonement and those who actually witnessed the event.

 

[Timtofly]

It does Brother.
God has fixed a day...one day.., when he will take his seat to judge , not only the living but also the dead.

Act 17
30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”



The GWT is that fixed day and all the dead and the living are in attendance....

On that day eternal judgment will be executed and the result is the glorification of his redeemed with the opening and revealing of those in the book of life at the GWT , and the eternal destruction and separation of those who reject his saving Gospel into the judgment prepared for the devil and his angels.

Rev 20
2thess 1
Matt 25

You add "sitting" to the text of Acts 17.

That day was the Cross. God was not sitting, God was the Atonement.

The GWT is not even in a created time period. It is not even a literal day. It is outside of time altogether. There is not even a heaven and earth, "at" the GWT judgment. It is not an event in the common notion of an event. God is not judging creation, the World, nor the Ages. Scripture clearly points out the dead of all time. The dead from sheol, the dead from Death, and the dead from the sea. There is no living at the GWT. If any of the dead are resurrected, they would no longer be "the dead". They would be found alive, among the living, in the NHNE. Do you claim those dead will be given a second chance to join the living, after being dead in sheol for thousands of years?

Tell me, during Satan's little season and many are consumed by fire, is that fire, God sitting in judgment? Or is that God just destroying disobedient humans prior to the GWT? If you claim God is judging those rebellious, how is that a single judgment and the Flood of Noah's day itself any different, but a single judgment day? If you already have two days of judgment, what is wrong with the fire at the Second Coming being a third day of judgment? The only day that God set aside to judge every single human to ever be born was the Cross. And God Himself was the Lamb who bore that judgment so the world did not have to.

Every other day of judgment was given to those who have rejected the free gift of salvation. The GWT was not set apart to judge the world nor the living with the dead. The GWT is not even in time, but out of created time, so not a day at all. It is also only to judge the dead. The living are not even found there, because they are experiencing creation in the NHNE. The place those at the GWT are headed to is the Lake of Fire, definitely not the NHNE.

 

[Timtofly]

The tribulation is the wrath of Satan/antichrist against the redeemed and has been ongoing for centuries. The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and is totally destructive when Jesus comes and cannot be escaped.

So the Second Coming is post the Cross? Post the tribulation of Satan, but pre-God's wrath? If the Second Coming is post God's wrath, then the Second Coming is not God's wrath, and those hiding in fear at the 6th Seal have nothing to worry about? When God shows up all wrath has already been evident without God or the Lamb even present or known?

 

[Timtofly]

You know that Amils believe He is reigning now and will do eternally. He is simply going to "shepherd" mankind at the end. That is what the word "rule" means. Jesus judges the living and the dead when He comes. Scripture knows nothing of resurrection days or judgment days. That is a Premil innovation.

Premil invented Genesis 6-8? Are you claiming the Flood was not a judgment from God, but premil invented that to prove the world has also been set aside to be judged by fire? Did Premil also invent 2 Peter 3 to compare God's judgment at the Flood with the fire of the Second Coming? Premil invented the rapture at the Second Coming and called that a day of resurrection? What exactly do you mean, "Scripture knows nothing of resurrection days or judgment days"? Was Matthew 27 a judgment day and resurrection day? Or did Premil invent Matthew 27 also?

 

[DavidPT]

Heaven and earth pass away at the instant the "thief moment" happens. Do you think heaven and earth passed away 350 years after the Flood, when Noah died?

Kind of a strange question to be asking me---Do I think heaven and earth passed away 350 years after the Flood, when Noah died? Especially the fact, unlike a lot of other Premils, I do not think the heaven and earth waits to pass away a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. I take it to mean when He returns. I just don't take it in a literal sense where it might involve the entire planet being engulfed in flames based on it being compared to Noah's flood where the entire planet was engulfed in water. Therefore, if the flood engulfed the entire planet with literal water, which is indeed true, so must the entire earth be engulfed in flames. I disagree with that logic.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.


That logic makes God out to be a liar here. That logic has God still doing the exact same thing yet again, even though He said He would never do that again, since that logic has Him doing this via literal fire rather than literal water. If the entire planet is engulfed in flames, that still describes a flood in a sense, just not a flood involving water, a flood involving fire.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Kind of a strange question to be asking me---Do I think heaven and earth passed away 350 years after the Flood, when Noah died? Especially the fact, unlike a lot of other Premils, I do not think the heaven and earth waits to pass away a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. I take it to mean when He returns. I just don't take it in a literal sense where it might involve the entire planet being engulfed in flames based on it being compared to Noah's flood where the entire planet was engulfed in water. Therefore, if the flood engulfed the entire planet with literal water, which is indeed true, so must the entire earth be engulfed in flames. I disagree with that logic.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.


That logic makes God out to be a liar here. That logic has God still doing the exact same thing yet again, even though He said He would never do that again, since that logic has Him doing this via literal fire rather than literal water. If the entire planet is engulfed in flames, that still describes a flood in a sense, just not a flood involving water, a flood involving fire.

Really? This is talking about a literal flood in Noah's day. It is talking about literal water. Maybe you do not take the flood literally now as it exposes Premil. But there is a big big difference between water and fire. Sorry you do not see that. But that is what Premil produces. It has to change the nature and effect of everything literal in Scripture in order to force a square peg into a round hole.

 

[DavidPT]

Really? This is talking about a literal flood in Noah's day. It is talking about literal water. Maybe you do not take the flood literally now as it exposes Premil. But there is a big big difference between water and fire. Sorry you do not see that. But that is what Premil produces. It has to change the nature and effect of everything literal in Scripture in order to force a square peg into a round hole.

This is what I said in that post---Therefore, if the flood engulfed the entire planet with literal water, which is indeed true , so must the entire earth be engulfed in flames. I disagree with that logic.

I was not arguing against it being literally true concerning the flood. My argument was, that since the flood was literally true, thus it involved literal water engulfing the entire planet, that this then makes it equally true that it will involve fire engulfing the entire planet this time around. I disagree that it would mean that it has be true that the fire has to be literal because the water was literal.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Animals are flesh, are they not? At least during the flood God managed to find a way to preserve some of them. How is He going to do that this time around if He uses fire rather than water, and that there is no ark to board any animals on, and even if there was, it would still be nonsensical to think someone could build something that could withstand immense heat and flames of fire?

The verse above says---and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh---yet, if literal fire is meant, it indeed would destroy all flesh involving the animal kingdom. There would be no such thing as animals after that. But God said He would never destroy all flesh again, and this interpretation has Him literally doing that, the fact this would wipe out every single animal on the planet, thus destroying all flesh in regards to them.

I wonder if Amils have any pets they care about? Or is it only Premils that might have pets they care about? The reason I wonder, imagine having pets you care about, and tomorrow the 2nd coming happens, thus these pets are burned to death because the entire planet goes up in flames. Who cares, right? At least it didn't happen to me. So what if the pets I loved get burned up once I'm raptured. That's their problem not mine.

 

[sovereigngrace]

This is what I said in that post---Therefore, if the flood engulfed the entire planet with literal water, which is indeed true , so must the entire earth be engulfed in flames. I disagree with that logic.

I was not arguing against it being literally true concerning the flood. My argument was, that since the flood was literally true, thus it involved literal water engulfing the entire planet, that this then makes it equally true that it will involve fire engulfing the entire planet this time around. I disagree that it would mean that it has be true that the fire has to be literal because the water was literal.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Animals are flesh, are they not? At least during the flood God managed to find a way to preserve some of them. How is He going to do that this time around if He uses fire rather than water, and that there is no ark to board any animals on, and even if there was, it would still be nonsensical to think someone could build something that could withstand immense heat and flames of fire?

The verse above says---and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh---yet, if literal fire is meant, it indeed would destroy all flesh involving the animal kingdom. There would be no such thing as animals after that. But God said He would never destroy all flesh again, and this interpretation has Him literally doing that, the fact this would wipe out every single animal on the planet, thus destroying all flesh in regards to them.

I wonder if Amils have any pets they care about? Or is it only Premils that might have pets they care about? The reason I wonder, imagine having pets you care about, and tomorrow the 2nd coming happens, thus these pets are burned to death because the entire planet goes up in flames. Who cares, right? At least it didn't happen to me. So what if the pets I loved get burned up once I'm raptured. That's their problem not mine.

There is such a lack of objectivity in your analyze. It seems like the premise you approach all Scripture with is: what argument or interpretation will preserve Premil. This is how it comes across anyway. If a literal interpretation forbids Premil then you force a figurative meaning on it. If a figurative interpretation forbids Premil then you force a literal meaning on it. That is why it is hard to take your posts serious. There is a lack of consistency and veracity with them.

Your hermeneutics have passage after passage contradicting each other. Amil, on the other hand, as you see below, knits together seamlessly and perfectly. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the biblical view-point.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Looking at the detail of this passage, and knowing the consistent teaching of Scripture, and allowing the repeated climactic descriptions of the second coming, we can be confident this is clearly a record of the impending and all-consummating return of Jesus!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” The Greek word parerchomai means to pass away or perish.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away or pass away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

2 Peter 3:3-13 agrees with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai] with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

This is telling us that what we know as the earth (or where we live) “shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10) when Jesus comes as a thief. The ground is going to be “dissolved” (2 Peter 3:11).

The teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24:35-44 correlates with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1 and proves that we are looking at the second coming: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Christ Comes, not the Father. The Father is in heaven. Christ then hands up the kingdom to His Father at the end. The judgment follows the coming of Christ and the destruction of the new heavens and new earth. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 confirms: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Revelation 16:15-20: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away [Gr. pheugo], and the mountains were not found.”

 

[jeffweedaman]

I just don't take it in a literal sense where it might involve the entire planet being engulfed in flames based on it being compared to Noah's flood where the entire planet was engulfed in water. Therefore, if the flood engulfed the entire planet with literal water, which is indeed true, so must the entire earth be engulfed in flames. I disagree with that logic.

So in what way will the coming of the Son of man be like Noahs day?


Matthew 24:37
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

 

[Timtofly]

While they desperately want their kingdom to be pristine, glorious, incorrupt and eternal ( just like the Amil kingdom), the reality is, their theology produces a mongrel state full of coexisting glory and corruption, life and death, the glorified state and mortality, perfect peace and ongoing blood-letting. This reasoning produces an absolute mess.

What is your point here? What do you mean Amil have a glorious and wonderful kingdom? Amil have a monopoly on Salvation?

I agree the kingdom is glorious and Jesus called it Paradise. Paradise was never tainted with sin. But then, the future Millennium is not even Paradise. Why conflate Paradise and on earth now, with the future? Paradise is not the here and now on earth, nor the future on earth, yet Paradise is your eternal kingdom, not earth now or later.

You have no point, because your here and now is not a replacement for Paradise nor a future millennium. So not sure why Amil pretend they have a monopoly on salvation and Paradise. I am not sure why they think the here and now is better than a future millennium after God has rid the earth of sin and wickedness. The Second Coming and subsequent tribulation is the final harvest and God's judgment on the world.

Paradise is not coming to earth until after the NHNE. Yet you make up imagined scenarios about a future you even deny will happen. Your hyperbole denigrating a future you literally reject, nor can understand, will never change the reality of deception, sin, and wickedness in the last 1991 years. Yet you claim the intra-Advent period is what is being viewed in Revelation 20.

Amil literally have to invent scenarios just like premil do. They can be accepted or rejected. What cannot be done is convince all humanity Revelation 20 is not about the future. It was the future in 30AD. It was the future in 70AD, and was still the future in 1,000 AD. There literally has been no historical intervention in which this chapter stopped being the future.

Now like preterist, you can pretend that Revelation is so symbolic, that only some can ever understand it as God intended. You all make excuses why Revelation stopped being a future prophecy, and just became an historical recap. Yet all you have as proof is excuses why Revelation cannot be the future.

Any proof offered from Scripture is brushed aside and the final reasoning is just denigrating comments:

"While they desperately want their kingdom to be pristine, glorious, incorrupt and eternal ( just like the Amil kingdom), the reality is, their theology produces a mongrel state full of coexisting glory and corruption, life and death, the glorified state and mortality"

How can any one even come up with such nonsense? If Amil are talking about a same definite time period as Premil, why pretend the last 1991 years will be better than a future one, that Amil have literally nothing to base their hyperbole on?

 

[jeffweedaman]

I wonder if Amils have any pets they care about? Or is it only Premils that might have pets they care about? The reason I wonder, imagine having pets you care about, and tomorrow the 2nd coming happens, thus these pets are burned to death because the entire planet goes up in flames. Who cares, right? At least it didn't happen to me. So what if the pets I loved get burned up once I'm raptured. That's their problem not mine.

Silly and offensive of you to think of Amills in this way.
You remember a conversation we had years ago when you lost your Dog?

God cared enough about the animals in Noahs day to save them and he will in the future when he will restore all things.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What is your point here? What do you mean Amil have a glorious and wonderful kingdom? Amil have a monopoly on Salvation?

I agree the kingdom is glorious and Jesus called it Paradise. Paradise was never tainted with sin. But then, the future Millennium is not even Paradise. Why conflate Paradise and on earth now, with the future? Paradise is not the here and now on earth, nor the future on earth, yet Paradise is your eternal kingdom, not earth now or later.

You have no point, because your here and now is not a replacement for Paradise nor a future millennium. So not sure why Amil pretend they have a monopoly on salvation and Paradise. I am not sure why they think the here and now is better than a future millennium after God has rid the earth of sin and wickedness. The Second Coming and subsequent tribulation is the final harvest and God's judgment on the world.

Paradise is not coming to earth until after the NHNE. Yet you make up imagined scenarios about a future you even deny will happen. Your hyperbole denigrating a future you literally reject, nor can understand, will never change the reality of deception, sin, and wickedness in the last 1991 years. Yet you claim the intra-Advent period is what is being viewed in Revelation 20.

Amil literally have to invent scenarios just like premil do. They can be accepted or rejected. What cannot be done is convince all humanity Revelation 20 is not about the future. It was the future in 30AD. It was the future in 70AD, and was still the future in 1,000 AD. There literally has been no historical intervention in which this chapter stopped being the future.

Now like preterist, you can pretend that Revelation is so symbolic, that only some can ever understand it as God intended. You all make excuses why Revelation stopped being a future prophecy, and just became an historical recap. Yet all you have as proof is excuses why Revelation cannot be the future.

Any proof offered from Scripture is brushed aside and the final reasoning is just denigrating comments:

"While they desperately want their kingdom to be pristine, glorious, incorrupt and eternal ( just like the Amil kingdom), the reality is, their theology produces a mongrel state full of coexisting glory and corruption, life and death, the glorified state and mortality"

How can any one even come up with such nonsense? If Amil are talking about a same definite time period as Premil, why pretend the last 1991 years will be better than a future one, that Amil have literally nothing to base their hyperbole on?

Your kingdom is overrun by billions of wicked at the end of your so-called future millennium who surround the camp of the saints for a season led by their super-hero Satan.