Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Timtofly]

What are you talking about? His reign doesn't end when the thousand years ends. Satan is loosed when the thousands years ends, but Christ's reign doesn't end.

If you would start backing up your points with scripture for once then we could get somewhere.

Then His reign does not end and start back up again for the 1000 year reign of Christ. Saying that Christ is on earth as Prince for 1000 years does not limit nor change the rulership Christ was given since birth. Nor did the Word becoming flesh change Christ's eternal authority. So Amil can drop the false accusation that Premil negates such authority.

You need Scripture to prove the authority of the Word/Lamb/Jesus Christ the Prince is eternal? Even during the 1000 years between the Second Coming and the NHNE?

Amil need to provide Scriptural proof that this authority negates a 1000 year period of Christ on earth. Or negates the existence of this 1000 years. It boggles the mind to see people trying to deny Christ having the ability to rule on earth for 1000 years. The only time prophecy is very specific, and they still deny God's Word. They want to make it a mystery and call it something other than what it is.

 

[Timtofly]

It's so baffling to me that you interpret Revelation 19, contained within a highly symbolic book, literally, but interpret 2 Peter 3, contained within a mostly literal book, symbolically.

I have already pointed out to you more than once before how Revelation 19 lines up with 2 Peter 3. Obviously, with the entire earth being burned up, all unbelievers would be destroyed. Well, that's exactly what Revelation 19 indicates.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Who is not included among "all people, free and slave, great and small"? Only doctrinal bias would lead someone to conclude that isn't talking about all the people on earth at the time (believers will be "in the air" with Christ). Both 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 19 make it very clear that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns, so how could they be speaking of different events? Clearly, 2 Peter 3 is literal since Peter compares this future fiery event directly to another literal event that occurred in the past, which was the flood. And clearly Revelation 19 is not literal unless you want to believe the ridiculous notion that Christ will slay people with a literal sword that comes out of His mouth.

That's because it's all figurative language. Figurative or symbolic text does not have to resemble what it is symbolizing in reality. Do you understand that? If you want to believe that there will be a literal sword coming out of Christ's mouth when He returns that He uses to slay all His enemies, then that's up to you. But, it's quite obvious that the text of Revelation 19 is figurative and the text of 2 Peter 3 is literal. Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing something so obvious.

To think that 2 Peter 3 can't be literal just because of your desire for there to be animals on the new earth is not a valid argument for 2 Peter 3 not being literal.

The word fire is missing. Do you not apply that same logic in Revelation 20, when the words "on earth" are missing from Revelation 20:4?

Why force the issue into one chapter, but deny the logic in the very next chapter? Fire in chapter 19 is not even implied nor necessary.

Sure, instead of actually seeing a rider on a white horse with a sword in his mouth, John may have meant fire coming down from heaven? Or maybe, he was describing two separate events with a time period of 1000 years between them?

One would question that if Christ was on earth at the start of the 1000 years, why would John symbolize Christ on earth, as coming down as fire from God? Or if we defined fire coming down out of heaven in Chapter 19 instead of Christ on a white horse, then perhaps Christ would still be in heaven at the start of the 1000 years. Quite frankly Satan was not destroyed by the fire nor the sword, yet many want to deny Satan's outcome. The outcome of Chapter 19 is Satan being bound. The outcome of Chapter 20 is Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire. Satan was not cast into the LOF at the same time as the FP and beast. Here is proof only the FP and beast were cast into the LOF:

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Amil refuse to see Satan being bound as the result of chapter 19. Yet they want chapter 19 to have fire coming down from heaven to destroy Satan then. There was no symbolic fire in Chapter 19, nor does Christ symbolically come down with fire in chapter 20. Creating unnecessary symbolism is still adding to Revelation which is forbidden. One cannot add fire to the meaning in chapter 19, any more than adding Christ returning, as one pleases to the narrative in chapter 20. Especially when it does not make sense. Creating nonsense is not part of discerning symbolic narrative.

Birds of prey do not need fire to properly eat carrion. Interestingly, obviously 2 Peter 3 is not stating that all animal life is destroyed instantly along with the "works thereof". God is not destroying His works. God is destroying Satan's works, humankind were taking pleasure in. That is why Peter claims:

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

We are to put away the things of the flesh and this world, because they will not survive this judgment of fire. The works of the Spirit will. So will life, until God says life will end. This final harvest is systematic and well planned out by God. Nothing will take God by surprise, but many humans will be surprised.

 

[Timtofly]

Have you never actually read Matthew 25:31-46? Yes, they do give an account there. Everyone there has to give an account of how they treated the needy (the hungry, thirsty, sick, homeless, etc.) because Christ says that how they treat "the least of these" is how they treat Him.

That is not giving an account. That is God describing their life. So when you stand to give account. You are going to declare your righteousness, which is really filthy rags, and claim that is why God let you into heaven? Or that is why you deserve a reward?

Whatever happened to, "because of Christ's Atonement"? Whatever happened to being obedient and not putting one's own desires first?

Matthew 25 is the difference between doing your job to get a paycheck, and doing your job for God even if you were under paid. The sheep were just doing their job. The goats were just doing their job. God still picked the sheep for doing their job, and rejected the goats for doing their job. Why did the sheep not know they were doing it in the Lord's name? Are you saying you only do good, because you know it is for God. One can be saved because they do good, even if they did not know they were doing it for God? How can one unconsciously do thing's in the Lord's name? James says faith and works go hand in hand. If these people had works, but did not even know they were doing it in Jesus' name, it indicates they had no faith. Why did they have to ask?

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?"

A redeemed individual already knows they are doing it in Jesus' name. God is being selective when He views these "filthy rags" works. You do understand that the lost can also do works of righteousness, and even in Jesus' name, and still die in their sin?

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

As part of the church, we accept the Atonement. But the redeemed do not have a monopoly on righteous works. Because being redeemed does not rely on righteous works. The redeemed do not have to ask, "what righteous works"? The lost will still die doing good works, and even in Jesus' name. Many religious people are still lost. Redemption is not based on what we do, but what Christ did.

Besides the fact God can still save people who have rejected Him, if He so pleases. It is God's mercy to save people.

"according to his mercy he saved us"

When one is chosen by God, God changes them and they no longer have free will to choose between rebellion and obedience. The sheep are not part of those who chose redemption. They will be part of the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Now you can accuse me of interpretative bias. But yet you will claim these actually made a choice to be redeemed to prove your bias. No where does it state they accepted the Atonement. That is still circular reasoning based on your bias, because you have to force these sheep to enter Paradise. That is not what their reward was.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

"but the righteous into life eternal."

Living on earth is still the kingdom prepared from the beginning. Having everlasting life is still why the sons of God were created. This is still not proof they have been glorified or part of the church, and redeemed. All that is signified is that their lives were spared and they would never die again. Having one's name in the Lamb's book of life does not guarantee that one is glorified and completely restored as a son of God. It does guarantee everlasting life.

I think that is why some deny a future millennium and iron rod rule of Christ. They cannot see humans not in everlasting punishment, nor Paradise, but a third condition, not glorified. It is either glorified or the Lake of Fire, no middle ground. They cannot see people living on earth and Paradise, both. They cannot see life on earth without a sin nature. It is all or nothing. Yet in the period of history, prior to the Flood, there were sons of God dwelling along side of Adam's fallen flesh. In fact the glorified sons of God could have offspring with Adam's fallen flesh, which would be a third type of human. Is sin genetically transferred to a son of God? The point was that even sons of God without a sin nature, were openly in rebellion with God.

Now we have a 1000 year period where sin and Adam's corruptible flesh are gone. God has restored everlasting life without sin, a sin nature, nor death. But these humans are not glorified, but yet can procreate and fill the earth for 1000 years. Do Amil deny God the reality of life prior to the Flood, because it does not hold to their theological bias? The Millennium is not about mixing mortals and immortals or whatever mythology one concocts. All humans have everlasting incorruptible physical bodies. The only way to die, is to openly disobey the rules set up by Christ. And we are not privy to understand the Millennium, because it does not pertain to the here and now, but life after the Second Coming. This harvest is the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. Because the 144k are thus described:

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

"having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

These were the first sheep chosen by God. They were not brought before the throne as in Matthew 25. They were not sealed because of their works. They were specifically chosen by God after the Second Coming, and separate from the church found later in Revelation 7. The 144k are not the church the same as the sheep were not the church. If they had been the church, they would have already left earth to be in the multitude without number.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Nothing in Revelation 7 describes these people the same way the sheep are described in Matthew 25. Not even the 144k are described the same way as those sheep in Matthew 25. Yet God can declare righteous whomsoever He pleases. If God is free to destroy even sons of God for rebellion, He is free to redeem Adam's fallen flesh back any way He so chooses to Himself and for His eternal purposes.

 

[DavidPT]

I have already told you: "This is a moot argument. For the record, deceived people can be deceived over and over again. Sorry you do not believe that."

I don't have any problem believing deceived ppl can be deceived over and over again. I don't have a dispute with that in general. I just find it bizarre, assuming Amil, that the masses, which might mean billions, that satan sets out to deceive after the thousand years, that they are already deceived, billions of them maybe, and that they were already deceived during the thousand years when satan is bound so that he should deceive the nations no more.

If assuming Premil it would mean those that are spared at the 2nd coming, that satan had been deceiving them, but not only them, therefore satan is cast into the pit so that he is prevented from deceiving them any longer. Christ and His saved saints then begin ruling the entire planet. These that were spared, yet deceived at the time, are now no longer deceived because there is no one to deceive them any more, and now they know the truth because Christ and His saints are ruling the planet, yet satan must be loosed for a little season after the thousand years. This then equals satan deceiving someone no longer deceived, as opposed to Amil where that equals satan deceiving the already deceived.

Amils, such as you and SJ, think it makes more sense to mass deceive the masses that are already deceived, rather than to mass deceive the masses that are no longer deceived.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't have any problem believing deceived ppl can be deceived over and over again. I don't have a dispute with that in general. I just find it bizarre, assuming Amil, that the masses, which might mean billions, that satan sets out to deceive after the thousand years, that they are already deceived, billions of them maybe, and that they were already deceived during the thousand years when satan is bound so that he should deceive the nations no more.

If assuming Premil it would mean those that are spared at the 2nd coming, that satan had been deceiving them, but not only them, therefore satan is cast into the pit so that he is prevented from deceiving them any longer. Christ and His saved saints then begin ruling the entire planet. These that were spared, yet deceived at the time, are now no longer deceived because there is no one to deceive them any more, and now they know the truth because Christ and His saints are ruling the planet, yet satan must be loosed for a little season after the thousand years. This then equals satan deceiving someone no longer deceived, as opposed to Amil where that equals satan deceiving the already deceived.

Amils, such as you and SJ, think it makes more sense to mass deceive the masses that are already deceived, rather than to mass deceive the masses that are no longer deceived.

Stop ducking around the evidence. Address the evidence instead of your usual diversion tacts.

I do not believe one will ever fully understand Revelation 20 until to see the seismic spiritual change that occurred to the Gentiles since and through the earthly ministry of Christ. You do not seem to see (or you choose to ignore in order to sustain your eschatological position) the ginormous contrast between the spiritual standing of the Gentiles in the OT and the NT. Before the First Advent, the Gospel was overwhelmingly contained within one small nation. Israel were the lone chosen people. After the cross this all changed. The Gentiles were enlightened to the truth and avoided the wonderful opportunity of encountering Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Before the cross the Gentiles are continually depicted as being ignorant, blind, in darkness and in rebellion. In the New Testament the Gentiles are said to be enlightened and trusting in God. These are obviously general sweeping statements. They are relative and comparative. Scripture is basically contrasting the wholesale darkness that cloaked the Gentiles in the Old Testament to the widespread evangelism of the New Testament era which saw the Gospel invade all nations and set countless millions free. From a handful of rare Gentile conversions, including one lone Gentile city, to the global spread and success of the great commission, we are looking at in an incredible success.

Gentiles are said here to have been “without God” and “without hope” before the cross. That was a horrible place to be. Even though these are sweeping statements, that did not mean all Gentiles were unsaved. They were not there are many examples of Gentiles encountering God in the Old Testament. They were general simplifications.

Acts 13:47 "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

A sweeping statement like this was not predicting that every single Gentile was going be saved. It was simply saying that God was going to enlighten the Gentile nations with his truth and remove the former deception that hung over the Gentiles as a general group through the preaching of the glorious gospel of Christ.

This is one of many reasons why many have abandoned Premil in recent years. It presents such a hopeless defeated doom-and-gloom message. It is the opposite to the victorious NT narrative. It is truly difficult to see Premils continually elevating the power and influence of Satan and belittling the power and influence of Christ. Amils and Postmils have a BIG Christ and a small devil. They have a triumphant Church and a subjugated devil.

If you can't recognize the success of the great commission and how that countless millions of Gentiles have experienced salvation and have been wonderfully set free from the bondage of sin since the cross that were once wholesale blind, damned and in spiritual darkness then you are not seeing the spiritual reality. The light has been shining bright for 2,000 yrs. His name is Jesus Christ (the light of the world). That light is now reflected in the global Church of Jesus Christ (His body) as they advance the good news of the Gospel to the nations (ethnos).

The light has been shining bright for 2,000 yrs. His name is Jesus Christ (the light of the world). That light is now reflected in the global Church of Jesus Christ (His body) as they advance the good news to the nations (ethnos).

The general broad deception that engulfed the Gentiles in ignorance and darkness is lifted. They now can receive if they believe. That does not suggest the majority will. Acts 13:46-48 says, “Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you [the Jews]: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos]. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

From Acts 10 (and the incident at Cornelius’ house) the Gospel was released unto the darkened Gentiles in a significant manner. They would now be brought from darkness of heathenism unto the light of Christ and His Gospel. The unequivocal words from Paul and Barnabas above confirm that the tide had markedly turned and that the Gospel had opened up to the blinded Gentiles in a very definite way. With the rare exception of the city of Nineveh, the Gospel was previously restricted to the small individual “nation” of natural Israel before the cross. The nations were totally engulfed with a blanket of darkness which was now being removed. The enforcement of Satan’s defeat at the cross would now be realized by the people of God through the faithful preaching of the Word of God. The devil would be spiritually bound as the kingdom of God advanced with the Gospel. This spiritual binding ensures he is unable to defeat the work of the Church of Jesus Christ evangelizing the nations. It was only after Calvary that the good news of salvation was widened out to embrace the heathen “nations” of the world.

For example, Romans 9:30 attests: “the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.”

Many times, the New Testament uses broad sweeping statements about the salvation of the Gentiles. This in Revelation 20 is just another parallel teaching. It is written throughout the New Testament. Satan has lost his wholesale deception of the Gentile nations. Revelation 20 is one of many general sweeping unqualified statements pertaining to the lifting of the deception on the Gentile nations. This started 2000 years ago. The first resurrection enabled the enlightenment of the nations.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the OT. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Rev 20 is saying.

Those who were hitherto aliens and strangers to Almighty God, being outside of His intimate plan and purpose, are now graciously “made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 19 involves the battle of Armageddon. The Second Coming is not to the valley of Megiddo. The Mount of Olives is no where near Megiddo. I am not sure that there will be a new plain for 60 miles all the way to Megiddo, but definitely not the same event. The Second Coming could make the area around Jerusalem more accessible from Megiddo, but the Second Coming happens way before Revelation 19.

Of course Amil seem to incorporate all the events into a singularity, instead of how John witnessed Revelation unfolding. Historist leave very little left to happen in Revelation as well.

I agree that John does not portray a seven year period, but if Satan is given one second of authority, it will be a solid 42 months. Nothing figurative nor past history. But the 42 months are post the 7th Trumpet, no matter how much re-arranging people attempt.

I have pointed out that the 7th Trumpet will not stop for the whole 42 months, and no one accepts that either. Just because the week (of the 7th Trumpet) is split in half to allow the 42 months, does not mean the Trumpet stops, it just means it cannot stop until after Armageddon, if there is an interruption of the week itself. The week is just a time period. The Trumpet is letting us know when that time period starts and finishes.

Though I don't agree the 42 months follow the 7th trumpet, I do agree that the 7th trumpet involves an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day. Take the 5th and 6th trumpet, for instance. No one would claim that the events pertaining to the 5th trumpet involves 24 hours or less, nor would they claim that about the events pertaining to the 6th trumpet. Yet, especially Amils, claim that the 7th trumpet involves only a single day, meaning 24 hours or less. Even though in Revelation 10 we are already told, that in the days not day, when the 7th angel shall begin to sound.

 

[Timtofly]

What doesn't make sense to me is your carnal way of looking at things. Where do you get the idea that being a priest of Christ has anything to do with ruling over your neighbors as their priest, whatever that even means? Being a priest of Christ means that we serve Him and sacrifice ourselves for Him.

Are you somehow not aware that we in the body of Christ (the church) are a royal priesthood?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

John wrote that we are currently "a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". Do you disagree with that?

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

I don't deny any of that. I don't deny the Millennial Kingdom also found in Scripture, yet you do.

We do not offer up sacrifices like earthly priest which is obvious. So calling the priest in the future millennium just carnal acts, seems somewhat blasphemous to the point.

A carnal mind is one in bondage to sin. There is no sin nor sin nature in the Millennium, so no carnal mindedness. All are priest, so claiming it is the last 1991 years, is pretty much wrong, as the majority of humanity can not be. So yes, the lost need intercession and prayer, whether you explain that to them or not. They need it, because they themselves cannot do it. To show compassion over the lost is not having a carnal mind like you suggest. My point was that they are in darkness, and you know it, but they do not.

Do you concede that your carnal mindedness refuses to view the Millennium without any carnal mindedness. Amil here claim the Millennium is just full of carnal minded humans. Now that to me is being carnal minded and projecting one's own inability onto this Lord's Day. The next 1000 years are going to be separated from current conditions, and Holy. Sin and Satan will not be present. Neither will carnal minded people. Rebellion will be met with death, and sin will not enter the world.

Just because Revelation 20 calls them priest and rulers, does not make it the here and now. We are priest, but not ruling over others, and that is not being carnal. The rulership belongs to the first generation. They will rule over their offspring, and be priest in that capacity. There are no children and grandchildren in redemption. All are equal as priest. No one is really given authority over each other despite historical church hierarchy. Our authority really only extends to our individual selves, which is plenty enough.

Yet amil seem to be dead set on applying the Millennium to the here and now.

 

[DavidPT]

Stop ducking around the evidence. Address the evidence instead of your usual diversion tacts.

I do not believe one will ever fully understand Revelation 20 until to see the seismic spiritual change that occurred to the Gentiles since and through the earthly ministry of Christ. You do not seem to see (or you choose to ignore in order to sustain your eschatological position) the ginormous contrast between the spiritual standing of the Gentiles in the OT and the NT. Before the First Advent, the Gospel was overwhelmingly contained within one small nation. Israel were the lone chosen people. After the cross this all changed. The Gentiles were enlightened to the truth and avoided the wonderful opportunity of encountering Christ.

I understand where you are coming from here, yet I see this as irrelevant, your entire post, and I did read your entire post, in regards to the point I have been trying to make. The ones that satan are to deceive after the thousand years, Amils via their interpretation have these already deceived before satan is to deceive them, and that Amils have them already being deceived when satan is in the pit in order that the nations are no longer deceived. Thus a contradiction no matter how you look at it. Regardless that many reject Premil, at least nonsense like this can't happen per that view.

Per Premil no one is being deceived during the thousand years, thus that agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more(Revelation 20:3).

Per Premil no one that satan deceives after the thousand years are still deceived when he deceives them.

Per Amil billions upon billions are deceived throughout the thousand years, thus that disagrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more(Revelation 20:3).

Per Amil every single person that satan deceives after the thousand years are already deceived before he even deceives them.

 

[Timtofly]

Kind of a strange question to be asking me---Do I think heaven and earth passed away 350 years after the Flood, when Noah died? Especially the fact, unlike a lot of other Premils, I do not think the heaven and earth waits to pass away a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. I take it to mean when He returns. I just don't take it in a literal sense where it might involve the entire planet being engulfed in flames based on it being compared to Noah's flood where the entire planet was engulfed in water. Therefore, if the flood engulfed the entire planet with literal water, which is indeed true, so must the entire earth be engulfed in flames. I disagree with that logic.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.


That logic makes God out to be a liar here. That logic has God still doing the exact same thing yet again, even though He said He would never do that again, since that logic has Him doing this via literal fire rather than literal water. If the entire planet is engulfed in flames, that still describes a flood in a sense, just not a flood involving water, a flood involving fire.

God can be pretty selective when it comes to fire. Elijah and the false prophets, where God reigned fire down from heaven. God allowed those throwing the three Hebrews into the fire to be burned themselves and die, yet the 3 Hebrews did not die. God will destroy what needs to be destroyed by fire at the Second Coming. And not all flesh including animals will be consumed at the Second Coming. I agree that it will be fire and not water, as water works totally different than fire. Although if it was prophecied to be water the Second Time, God would just have to use water differently than expected. God did not promise to never destroy again. He promised not to use water. That is the point Peter made, and Peter did not call God a liar.

 

[Timtofly]

There is such a lack of objectivity in your analyze. It seems like the premise you approach all Scripture with is: what argument or interpretation will preserve Premil. This is how it comes across anyway. If a literal interpretation forbids Premil then you force a figurative meaning on it. If a figurative interpretation forbids Premil then you force a literal meaning on it. That is why it is hard to take your posts serious. There is a lack of consistency and veracity with them.

Your hermeneutics have passage after passage contradicting each other. Amil, on the other hand, as you see below, knits together seamlessly and perfectly. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the biblical view-point.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Gr. pheugo]; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away [Gr. parerchomai].”

Looking at the detail of this passage, and knowing the consistent teaching of Scripture, and allowing the repeated climactic descriptions of the second coming, we can be confident this is clearly a record of the impending and all-consummating return of Jesus!

The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” The Greek word parerchomai means to pass away or perish.

Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away or pass away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end. The arrival of the king of glory also sees the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked). Elsewhere in Scripture these things are located at His Coming. In fact, it is difficult to see how Premils can locate this event at anything other time than the second coming when we allow for the many plain climactic passages in Scripture.

2 Peter 3:3-13 agrees with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai] with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state. One cannot imagine how the Holy Spirit could have made the awful nature and full extent of God’s judgment any plainer to the human mind in this passage. This passage agrees totally with the all-consummating character of every other explicit Second coming passage in Scripture; the day of the Lord sees the immediate destruction of the old heavens, elements and old earth, and the introduction of the “new heavens and a new earth” (2 Peter 3:13).

This is telling us that what we know as the earth (or where we live) “shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10) when Jesus comes as a thief. The ground is going to be “dissolved” (2 Peter 3:11).

The teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24:35-44 correlates with Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1 and proves that we are looking at the second coming: “Heaven and earth shall pass away [Gr. parerchomai], but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

Christ Comes, not the Father. The Father is in heaven. Christ then hands up the kingdom to His Father at the end. The judgment follows the coming of Christ and the destruction of the new heavens and new earth. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 confirms: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Revelation 16:15-20: “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away [Gr. pheugo], and the mountains were not found.”

You just claimed the heavens and earth pass away twice. One with Christ at the Second Coming without God.
One at the GWT.

So which is it, if you claim it only happens once?

How is the Second Coming the GWT?

Do you avoid this verse?

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Certainly the word "and" refers to two distinct beings, even though they are both God. Is the one sitting on the throne physical? Do you reject it is God sitting on the GWT? Is the throne physical or outside of created reality? Can it be seen in creation even if not part of creation, or is it also created? Is God literally a Father, or is that symbolism for our benefit and something to grasp? Can you logically separate God from the GWT or are they one and the same?

You seem to claim you alone can set all the rules and declare Premil unfit. You have your belief set in stone. You have settled on the final choice having considered all the options. If you are right, I will just consider myself a doubter who relies on God's Word and not my own understanding. But perhaps you can clear up this slight dilemma, between who the Lamb is and the one sitting on the throne?

 

[jeffweedaman]

Per Premil no one that satan deceives after the thousand years are still deceived when he deceives them.

Hello....for some reason billions of people who choose to remain outside the camp of the glorified Christ and saints for a thousand years take satans side like its the most natural thing in the world.

 

[Timtofly]

Your kingdom is overrun by billions of wicked at the end of your so-called future millennium who surround the camp of the saints for a season led by their super-hero Satan.

So was the earth between creation and Noah's Flood. Do you not have a point, or just imagination?

Why is the last 1991 years better than any other point in history? God seems to allow Satan to decieve, but John claims it was after the 1000 years, and after Satan was loosed. So why condemn the whole 1000 years? Obviously the deception points to the here and now as well, according to you. Where are there people like the sands of the sea in the here and now? Where is the standing army of tens of billions? Your glorious here and now seems like 100% turn out for this climactic event. Where is this last camp of the saints? Or will we still be waiting thousands of years from now?

 

[DavidPT]

Hello....for some reason billions of people who choose to remain outside the camp of the glorified Christ and saints for a thousand years take satans side like its the most natural thing in the world.

And why might they do that? Maybe they just didn't like being ruled over and satan deceives them into thinking they can overthrow Christ and His one world government. But even if that might not explain it, Amils still have every single person he deceives after the thousand years already deceived during the thousand years when he is not supposed to still be deceiving them. And that makes better sense how?

 

[Timtofly]

No Amil would claim such a thing. There is no such thing as an Amil who is also Pretrib. No Amil would have the rapture preceding satan's little season. All Amils are Post Trib, unless I'm missing something here.

There are Premils who are Pretrib, some that are Post Trib, and some that are Midtrib, though Midtrib is actually Pretrib since there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation period. I have tried to explain that logic in other threads, that Pretrib and Midtrib are the same thing. Some got it, some didn't.

Where a lot of ppl are messing up is by thinking that the tribulation follows the sounding of the 7th trumpet. But that is incorrect. When the 7th trumpet sounds the tribulation is already in the past. The 7th trumpet begins the wrath of God. The wrath of God is not during the trib, it is after.

If the Second Coming is at the 7th Trumpet, then the rapture is after the 7th Trumpet at Armageddon. If there is a little season it is between the 7th Trumpet and Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet does not sound at Armageddon, according to most eschatology.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I understand where you are coming from here, yet I see this as irrelevant, your entire post, and I did read your entire post, in regards to the point I have been trying to make. The ones that satan are to deceive after the thousand years, Amils via their interpretation have these already deceived before satan is to deceive them, and that Amils have them already being deceived when satan is in the pit in order that the nations are no longer deceived. Thus a contradiction no matter how you look at it. Regardless that many reject Premil, at least nonsense like this can't happen per that view.

Per Premil no one is being deceived during the thousand years, thus that agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more(Revelation 20:3).

Per Premil no one that satan deceives after the thousand years are still deceived when he deceives them.

Per Amil billions upon billions are deceived throughout the thousand years, thus that disagrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more(Revelation 20:3).

Per Amil every single person that satan deceives after the thousand years are already deceived before he even deceives them.

You definitely do not understand where I am coming from here, or you would not be responding like you are. What is more, you fail to address every single passage that I presented that forbids Premil. That is because it is not Zechariah 14 or Revelation 20 (your 2 pet passages that you seem to judge all Scripture by).

You also habitually sidestep every compelling explanation that Amils present to explain the powerful lifting of the spiritual veil over the Gentiles as a whole that kept them from Christ and salvation for thousands of years. That is likely because it makes too much sense and negates Premil. It is time for you to acknowledge these points and even address them, if you can. Also, when trying to understand, or refute Amil, you need to stop foisting Premil meanings on every aspect of Revelation 20. That is because you then distort what Amils believe. You need to take off your Premil glasses if you do indeed sincerely want to better grasp what they are saying. If you simply want to discredit Amil for the sake of it then keep doing what you are. This may explain why you seem to struggle so much with understanding Amil. If you implemented this then Amils may begin to listen to what you are saying.

The great commission

Was there any significant change in the Gospel focus that occurred as a result of the life, death and resurrection of Christ? Was there any benefit? Was there any increase in the scope of the light shining? Was there a major turnaround in the state of the Gentiles between the Old and the New Testament? Was there any notable change in regard to the degree of ignorance and deception that curtailed the Gentiles?

Salvation was largely kept within the boundaries of one small nation within the Middle East for centuries before the cross. Satan had the rest. The opposite is the case today.

Micah 7:16 "The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf."

No matter what the nations did, with all their might, they were confounded prior to Calvary.

Imprisonment, blindness, darkness and ignorance are always tied together in Scripture. When the Gentiles were spoken of in the Old Testament it was always in the context of this sorry reality. Satan rules the nations. Yahweh ruled Israel/Judah.

It has always been God's plan that His glory would be seen throughout the whole earth. Time after time in the Old Testament the ancient seers foresaw it, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. When God spoke about the nations it was always in regard to salvation and global influence not mere real estate in the Middle East. The Old Testament prophets prophesied for centuries about the new covenant period: that the Gentiles would be enlightenment through receiving the truth.

Was that restriction and limitation lifted following Calvary to as many as would come from the Gentile nations (unlike before Calvary)?

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Scripture is talking about the Gentiles as a collective whole. It is making a general spiritual observations. They are relative and comparative. Scripture is basically contrasting the wholesale darkness that cloaked the Gentiles in the Old Testament to the widespread evangelism of the New Testament era which saw the Gospel invade all nations and set countless millions free. From a handful of rare Gentile conversions, including one lone Gentile city, to the global spread and success of the great commission, we are looking at in an incredible success.

Gentiles are said here to have been “without God” and “without hope” before the cross. That was a horrible place to be. Even though these are sweeping statements, that did not mean all Gentiles were unsaved. They were not there are many examples of Gentiles encountering God in the Old Testament. They were general simplifications.

Acts 13:47 "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

A sweeping statement like this was not predicting that every single Gentile was going be saved. It was simply saying that God was going to enlighten the Gentile nations with his truth and remove the former deception that hung over the Gentiles as a general group through the preaching of the glorious gospel of Christ.

This is one of many reasons why many have abandoned Premil in recent years. It presents such a hopeless defeated doom-and-gloom message. It is the opposite to the victorious NT narrative. It is truly difficult to see Premils continually elevating the power and influence of Satan and belittling the power and influence of Christ. Amils and Postmils have a BIG Christ and a small devil. They have a triumphant Church and a subjugated devil.

 

[Timtofly]

Though I don't agree the 42 months follow the 7th trumpet, I do agree that the 7th trumpet involves an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day. Take the 5th and 6th trumpet, for instance. No one would claim that the events pertaining to the 5th trumpet involves 24 hours or less, nor would they claim that about the events pertaining to the 6th trumpet. Yet, especially Amils, claim that the 7th trumpet involves only a single day, meaning 24 hours or less. Even though in Revelation 10 we are already told, that in the days not day, when the 7th angel shall begin to sound.

Where do you place Chapter 13 if not after 12? It obviously is not the start of some judgment, that necessitates a Trumpet, Seal, Thunder, or vial. I place it in the 7th Trumpet, because Daniel 9:27 is the only week that describes the 7th Trumpet. Or the days of the 7th Trumpet, ie a week is the only week Daniel 9:27 makes sense. Those 42 months of desolation can only happen in the week of the 7th Trumpet. There is no 7 year period in Revelation that can be split into two 42 month periods. There is only a week of days, the 7th Trumpet, that can be split, allowing this 42 month period.

 

[Timtofly]

Hello....for some reason billions of people who choose to remain outside the camp of the glorified Christ and saints for a thousand years take satans side like its the most natural thing in the world.

All of the world's population would not fit in one city. That does not mean they left the camp to become decieved. The throne and Christ were in that city. They wanted to overthrow the kingdom and rule from that city was the deception. Not that anarchy and mayhem would be a more comfortable lifestyle.

I am sure DavidPT probably meant they are no longer undeceived. The point is about changing one's thinking and desires. Being a sinner is not naturally a deception state. Being a sinner and pretending to be a Saint is being deceptive and decieved. Even if good is produced is still does not remove the deception.

Perfect people and even the redeemed can be decieved into calling evil good and good evil. That is being deceived and no longer realizing one has been deceived. Then those who know they are deceived will change the laws to make themselves feel better. Because if authority claims it is ok, then it has to be OK.

You do not have to claim listening to Satan is the most natural thing just because billions of people agree. You don't even comprehend what it means to have no sin or no sin nature, because that is the only natural thing you know. You cannot even comprehend their natural state without a sin nature.

So when sinless people become decieved, what is that like? They think being sin free is unnatural?

 

[Timtofly]

You definitely do not understand where I am coming from here (you only think you understand Amils), or you would not be responding like you are. What is more (as is your form), you fail to address every single passage that I presented that forbids Premil. That is because it is not Zechariah 14 or Revelation 20 (your 2 pet passages that you judge all Scripture by).

I notice you sidestep every compelling explanation that Amils present to explain the powerful lifting of the spiritual veil over the Gentiles as a whole that kept them from Christ and salvation for thousands of years. That is because it makes too much sense and negates Premil. It is time for you to acknowledge these points and even address them, if you can. You also need to stop foisting Premil meanings on aspects of Revelation 20 and then trying to rebut Amil with that faulty understanding. Take your Premil glasses off before reading Amil posts and you might better grasp what they are saying. It simply doesn't work or get you respect amongst Amils.

Was there any significant change in the Gospel focus that occurred as a result of the life, death and resurrection of Christ? Was there any benefit? Was there any increase in the scope of the light shining? Was there a major turnaround in the state of the Gentiles between the Old and the New Testament? Was there any notable change in regard to the degree of ignorance and deception that curtailed the Gentiles?

Salvation was largely kept within the boundaries of one small nation within the Middle East for centuries before the cross. Satan had the rest. The opposite is the case today.

Micah 7:16 "The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf."

No matter what the nations did, with all their might, they were confounded prior to Calvary.

Imprisonment, blindness, darkness and ignorance are always tied together in Scripture. When the Gentiles were spoken of in the Old Testament it was always in the context of this sorry reality. Satan rules the nations. Yahweh ruled Israel/Judah.

It has always been God's plan that His glory would be seen throughout the whole earth. Time after time in the Old Testament the ancient seers foresaw it, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. When God spoke about the nations it was always in regard to salvation and global influence not mere real estate in the Middle East. The Old Testament prophets prophesied for centuries about the new covenant period: that the Gentiles would be enlightenment through receiving the truth.

Was that restriction and limitation lifted following Calvary to as many as would come from the Gentile nations (unlike before Calvary)?

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Scripture is talking about the Gentiles as a collective whole. It is making a general spiritual observations. They are relative and comparative. Scripture is basically contrasting the wholesale darkness that cloaked the Gentiles in the Old Testament to the widespread evangelism of the New Testament era which saw the Gospel invade all nations and set countless millions free. From a handful of rare Gentile conversions, including one lone Gentile city, to the global spread and success of the great commission, we are looking at in an incredible success.

Gentiles are said here to have been “without God” and “without hope” before the cross. That was a horrible place to be. Even though these are sweeping statements, that did not mean all Gentiles were unsaved. They were not there are many examples of Gentiles encountering God in the Old Testament. They were general simplifications.

Acts 13:47 "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos], unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

A sweeping statement like this was not predicting that every single Gentile was going be saved. It was simply saying that God was going to enlighten the Gentile nations with his truth and remove the former deception that hung over the Gentiles as a general group through the preaching of the glorious gospel of Christ.

This is one of many reasons why many have abandoned Premil in recent years. It presents such a hopeless defeated doom-and-gloom message. It is the opposite to the victorious NT narrative. It is truly difficult to see Premils continually elevating the power and influence of Satan and belittling the power and influence of Christ. Amils and Postmils have a BIG Christ and a small devil. They have a triumphant Church and a subjugated devil.

You are really claiming that every Gentile nation receiving redemption is the big change? There were always the same percentage of redeemed in every nation before the Cross. Why do you think there were 3000+ people from every nation and tongue at every Passover each year? Who denies this light in this tiny nation had no effect on all the Gentile nations? Jonah went and completely changed Nineveh, the most wicked city of his day, of course against his own will, and self righteous judgment.

The problem was these 3000+ people had the same OT light as the Israelites had, the Law of Moses. Even Israel had to change at the Cross, not just all the Gentile nations.

This is not a very great argument in dealing a death blow to premil. The Second Coming still precedes a literal 1000 year period on earth. The new citizens of this point in time get to enjoy the full benefit of Gabriel's promise from God in Daniel 9:24. And all the Nations as well. There will be no sin, no sin nature, and no Satan.

None of this negates your point. Because Satan was hindered greatly in the first century. 3000 people from all nations were redeemed and took back the light of the Gospel to the whole world, thus bringing light every where. Premil do not argue you are wrong in your evaluation of the great effect the Gospel had in the first century.

Premil argue that is not what will happen at the Second Coming. God hand picks many from every nation to shed Adam's flesh and blood, and live without the effects of sin for 1000 years. Those beheaded will also live on this restored earth. And that is definitely different than what the gospel did in the first century, which no premil will even attempt to disprove.

So forcing people to deny the good news of the first century is not a great strategy against giving up the truth of the Lord's Day soon to descend like a thief on this sin cursed earth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And you have no proof, the 7th Trumpet is not the one used, in the 6th Seal, but not the last time that particular Trumpet is used. A Trumpet can be used more than once, and does not mean the Seals have to happen at the same time as the Trumpets. The Trump of God is brought to earth with the angels, at the Second Coming. But it will also sound again after the other 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

You don't seem to understand the 5th and 6th Seal is the rapture and Second Coming. Funny how you want them all to happen at the moment of the Second Coming, but then claim I am confused that it will be carried out over the next days and months in a systematic order. If it all happens in an "instant" why make a fuss over the order, like I am pointing out? You don't even allow time for Satan to have 42 months, which clearly is after the Second Coming, because it is mentioned as last leading up to Armageddon after the 7th Trumpet already sounded. Can you prove the 42 months happened prior to the 7th Trumpet? Is the 5th Trumpet 42 months before the 7th Trumpet? Is the rapture and Second Coming even mentioned at the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Can a Trumpet be used more than once, especially if it is the Trump of God?

Your kingdom is overrun by billions of wicked at the end of your so-called future millennium who surround the camp of the saints for a season led by their super-hero Satan.

 

[DavidPT]

I am sure DavidPT probably meant they are no longer undeceived.

Here's basically my thinking on this. Before the 2nd coming happens in the end of this age satan has been deceiving the nations in the meantime, meaning since day 1, meaning ever since there were nations, thus these are among the lost not the saved, the ones still alive at the time.

Regardless that Amils disagree, not everyone who is not saved is destroyed during the 2nd coming. Zechariah 14, for one, proves otherwise, as does Daniel 7:12, to name a few. Speaking of something like that, Premils can find passages in the OT that prove not every single unsaved person alive on the planet is destroyed at the 2nd coming. I am yet to see Amils instead prove with the OT as well, that every single unsaved person alive on the planet is destroyed at the 2nd coming. If that is true, Amils should be able to prove it with the OT also.

Since satan gets bound at the 2nd coming, which obviously include his angels as well, and that the beast and fp are cast into the LOF at the time, this leaves no one remaining that can continue deceiving the nations. Christ then sets up His one world government, and He and the saved saints begin ruling the planet. That means these that are spared now know the truth during the thousand years, thus they are no longer deceived.

Yet, Revelation 20:3 tells us that satan must be loosed for a little season once the thousand years expires. This is when he goes out to deceive those no longer deceived. Amils have him going out to deceive those that are already deceived at the time, and for some strange reason, Amils see that making far more sense than deceiving someone no longer deceived.