Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[DavidPT]

Silly and offensive of you to think of Amills in this way.
You remember a conversation we had years ago when you lost your Dog?

God cared enough about the animals in Noahs day to save them and he will in the future when he will restore all things.

Why is it offensive to you, though? After all, it is your interpretation, not mine, that has them being burned to a crisp via the 2nd coming. If that is offensive to you maybe you should consider a different way of interpreting these things where things like that can't happen. But isn't that what would happen if when the 2nd coming happens, that one's pets would get burned to a crisp because the planet is allegedly engulfed in flames at the time? That scenario couldn't happen per Premil, though. Premil doesn't have the entire planet engulfed in flames at the 2nd coming. Amils have the entire animal kingdom being wiped out of existence because they have the entire planet engulfed in flames.

As to this lost pet of mine you say we discussed in the past, can't say I recall that discussion. I'm not saying the discussion didn't happen, since I don't know for sure, I'm just saying I don't recall that discussion if it did happen. I have lost numerous pets in my lifetime. All of them I still miss, but life goes on, regardless. I don't expect to ever see them again since I don't recall reading in the Bible anywhere that pets are resurrected and granted eternal life.

For all I know, if animals exist on the new earth, they might live and die like they already do now, rather than live forever. Fish are obviously going to be on the new earth. That is proven in Ezekiel in one of the last chapters. If ppl will be fishing for them this obviously means they will be eating them as well, which means death is still taking place on the new earth, at least in regards to fish. It also means eating is still taking place. And why would that be strange, assuming someone sees it as strange? Are not angels beings that can never die? Does not the OT record some of them having meals with humans?

Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

If we compare to some of the plagues recorded in Revelation, such as---Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea---it seems pretty obvious that what I submitted from Ezekiel 47 above, that that is meaning post this plague recorded in Revelation 16:3. And besides, who would dispute that Ezekiel 47:12 is referring to Revelation 22:2, where that alone already proves the timing meant in Ezekiel 47:8-12 involves the new earth?

It must be boring to be an Amil sometimes. We have this entire Bible to explore and Amils give the impression that only the NT is relevant.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Why is it offensive, though? Isn't that what would happen if when the 2nd coming happens, that one's pets would get burned to a crisp because the planet is allegedly engulfed in flames at the time? That scenario couldn't happen per Premil, though. Premil doesn't have the entire planet engulfed in flames at the 2nd coming. Amils have the entire animal kingdom being wiped out of existence because they have the entire planet engulfed in flames.

As to this lost pet of mine you say we discussed in the past, can't say I recall that discussion. I'm not saying the discussion didn't happen, since I don't know for sure, I'm just saying I don't recall that discussion if it did happen. I have lost numerous pets in my lifetime. All of them I still miss, but life goes on, regardless. I don't expect to ever see them again since I don't recall reading in the Bible anywhere that pets are resurrected and granted eternal life.

For all I know, if animals exist on the new earth, they might live and die like they already do now, rather than live forever. Fish are obviously going to be on the new earth. That is proven in Ezekiel in one of the last chapters. If ppl will be fishing for them this obviously means they will be eating them as well, which means death is still taking place on the new earth, at least in regards to fish. It also means eating is still taking place. And why would that be strange, assuming someone sees it as strange? Are not angels beings that can never die? Does not the OT record some of them having meals with humans?

Ezekiel 47:8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

If we compare to some of the plagues recorded in Revelation, such as---Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea---it seems pretty obvious that what I submitted from Ezekiel 47 above, that that is meaning post this plague recorded in Revelation 16:3. And besides, who would dispute that Ezekiel 47:12 is referring to Revelation 22:2, where that alone already proves the timing meant in Ezekiel 47:8-12 involves the new earth?

It must be boring to be an Amil sometimes. We have this entire Bible to explore and Amils give the impression that only the NT is relevant.

Where in Ezekiel 47 does it refer to some future millennium? Nowhere! Not that that matters in your loose hermeneutics, as you feel you have the right to dump whatever OT passage that tickles your fancy into this supposed period. No passage is safe from this type of questionable mode of biblical interpretation.

• Do you believe the old ordinances are going to be reintroduced?
• Where in Ezekiel 40-48 does it say that the temple and the sacrifices mentioned pertain to a time after the second coming?
• Do you believe the Levitical high priesthood is going to be restarted?
• Can you show me in Zechariah 14 or anywhere else in the Old Testament where it indicates that animal sacrifices will be introduced after the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ?
• Could you give me New Testament Scripture that teaches that the new covenant will be superseded with the old covenant rituals, ordinances, offerings, temple, and religious offices in the future?
• What purpose do you see for the following in your supposed future millennium?

The “meat offering” – Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20.
The “sin offering” – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20.
The “trespass offering” – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20.
The “burnt offerings” – Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15.
The “peace offerings” – Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12.
The “drink offerings” – Ezekiel 45:17.

• Also, do you believe the Levitical sons of Zadok will be restored (Ezekiel 40:46, 43:19, 44:15, 48:11)?
• Whose sins does the Premil think the Zadok priesthood need to make “sacrifices for” and what sinner needs additional intercession in the millennium in light of the presence of Jesus Christ – man’s only high priest and ultimate and final sin-bearer and intercessor?

 

[jeffweedaman]

Why is it offensive, though?

You are accusing Amill of not giving a damn about animals when the fire falls and restores all things. The fire will fall just like the waters fell. Judgment was and is forecast on the same global scale . Judgment and destruction of ungodly men is why the coming of the Son of man is just like the days of Noah...when the flood came and took them ALL away.

What these 2 events have in common is Gods prophesied righteous judgment to save his elect.


[ Isn't that what would happen if when the 2nd coming happens, that one's pets would get burned to a crisp because the planet is allegedly engulfed in flames at the time? ]

It happens sooner than you think David....but it will happen to all lifeforms .

 

[DavidPT]

Where in Ezekiel 47 does it refer to some future millennium? Nowhere! Not that that matters in your loose hermeneutics, as you feel you have the right to dump whatever OT passage that tickles your fancy into this supposed period. No passage is safe from this type of questionable mode of biblical interpretation.

Actually I never even mentioned the millennium. I mentioned the new earth. A lot of these disputes some of you are having with what I am posting involves reading comprehension on your part. That aside.

Do you not grasp what is meant by this in Ezekiel 47:12---whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed. It doesn't mean it's not consumed because no one is eating of it. It means it is not consumed because it's supply is endless. You can only fit an endless supply of something in an age that is endless, not an age that has an end. Ezekiel 47:12 is undeniably referring to the eternal age and that a verse or two prior to that we have ppl fishing, which means ppl are still eating in the eternal age, and that there is still death, at least in regards to the fish.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, was she in the room on the day of Pentecost, I would not know. But even 3000 recieved the Holy Spirit in one setting, so if Martha did not outright reject that Atonement she would have had the same experience as the rest of them.

The resurrection of Lazarus was only weeks, not years prior to the Cross. Martha, Mary, and Lazarus would still be alive in the time following the death, burial, and resurrection. Still a part of those blessed by Atonement and those who actually witnessed the event.

So you believe that to be the case, even if scripture remains silent? Alright then.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Actually I never even mentioned the millennium. I mentioned the new earth. A lot of these disputes some of you are having with what I am posting involves reading comprehension on your part. That aside.

Do you not grasp what is meant by this in Ezekiel 47:12---whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed. It doesn't mean it's not consumed because no one is eating of it. It means it is not consumed because it's supply is endless. You can only fit an endless supply of something in an age that is endless, not an age that has an end. Ezekiel 47:12 is undeniably referring to the eternal age and that a verse or two prior to that we have ppl fishing, which means ppl are still eating in the eternal age, and that there is still death, at least in regards to the fish.

Please address all my avoided enquiries. And, no, there is no mention of the NHNE (and you know it), you again force this into the text. That is Premil.

 

[Timtofly]

In heaven because they are dead and their souls are in heaven. But, I wasn't talking about them in terms of the church being mentioned after Revelation 4, I was specifically talking about "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were". That is referring to those in the church who are still alive at that point. The claim being made is that the church isn't around on earth at that point, but that is clearly false.

It is both places. Under the alter is symbolic of being part of the church and covered by the Atonement. Under the alter is not a place. It is being born into the family of God. It is the church. The context is the rapture and Second Coming where those in Paradise are about to be united with those redeemed on earth. So unless you separate the rapture from the Second Coming, the 5th and 6th Seal happen at the same time. If you claim there is a little season of time between the rapture and the Second Coming, then you have a pre-trib Second Coming, and a rapture that happens after a little season, ie a time of Tribulation.

 

[DavidPT]

Please all my avoided enquiries. And, no, there is no mention of the NHNE (and you know it), you again force this into the text. That is Premil.

Are you serious that Revelation 22:2 isn't meaning the NHNE? Because that is undeniably what Ezekiel 47:12 is referring to. Amils are apparently incapable of logically reasoning through some of these things if they can think Ezekiel 47:12 refers to something other that Revelation 22:2.

 

[DavidPT]

If you claim there is a little season of time between the rapture and the Second Coming, then you have a pre-trib Second Coming, and a rapture that happens after a little season, ie a time of Tribulation.

No Amil would claim such a thing. There is no such thing as an Amil who is also Pretrib. No Amil would have the rapture preceding satan's little season. All Amils are Post Trib, unless I'm missing something here.

There are Premils who are Pretrib, some that are Post Trib, and some that are Midtrib, though Midtrib is actually Pretrib since there is no such thing as a 7 year tribulation period. I have tried to explain that logic in other threads, that Pretrib and Midtrib are the same thing. Some got it, some didn't.

Where a lot of ppl are messing up is by thinking that the tribulation follows the sounding of the 7th trumpet. But that is incorrect. When the 7th trumpet sounds the tribulation is already in the past. The 7th trumpet begins the wrath of God. The wrath of God is not during the trib, it is after.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Are you serious that Revelation 22:2 isn't meaning the NHNE? Because that is undeniably what Ezekiel 47:12 is referring to. Amils are apparently incapable of logically reasoning through some of these things if they can think Ezekiel 47:12 refers to something other that Revelation 22:2.

You know I am talking about Ezekiel 47. Stop twisting my words. Answer the questions instead of your usual avoidance.

 

[Timtofly]

That is utter nonsense. Nowhere does scripture teach that there will be 2 new heavens and new earths. That belief can't be taken seriously at all.

What? How was heaven destroyed by the flood?

All the water above the firmament came to earth. That was physically a new heaven without water. At the Second Coming it will be a new heaven without stars. All the stars come to earth. God created heaven and earth in Genesis 1. He put the water for the Flood above the firmament. Then He put the stars in the firmament until the Second Coming and the judgment of fire. One third of the angels rebelled, so they were put in chains in the pit until the 5th Trumpet.

There was a new heaven and earth at the Flood, because Peter clearly states the old earth was destroyed. Not replaced, but destroyed, so the earth after the Flood was new.

"Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Clearly water destroyed an old heaven and earth, and there was a new heaven and earth since Noah, which will be destroyed by fire, and a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65 until 1000 years later and the GWT judgment.

Only after the 1000 years, comes a totally different creation than the one started in Genesis 1. Peter does point out this creation was destroyed twice. Once by water and again by fire. Both times a new heaven and earth was made liveable. Yet we will still wait until the end of current creation, at the GWT.

But the living do not even experience the GWT. Only the dead and they experience it outside of creation and time. The living experience current creation, and then in the next instant a new and totally different creation.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

The living are looking for and experience the NHNE, not the dead. The we are all those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. The dead are those dead in sheol, Death, and the sea. The dead are cast into the Lake of Fire. The living merely go from one creation into a NHNE creation. Only then will Paradise be "created" changed as the New Jerusalem, and it will come down and sit on the earth. The New Jerusalem will not change from Paradise at the Second Coming, but 1000 years later, just like the dead will have to wait 1000 years for the Lake of Fire. Not sure why this does not make sense to many readers of God's Word.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled."

"They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

How can there be no sea, if this is the same earth with the same sea/ocean we have today? John did not see a restored earth waiting for another future judgment. John saw a totally different reality and creation.

 

[Timtofly]

In Revelation 20 it's called a "little season" after he is loosed. In Revelation 12, it's says he has a "short time" after being cast out of heaven. So, any reference to his "little season" is a reference to Revelation 20. Why do I need to spell everything out to you?

How can being cast out of heaven be associated as being loosed from the pit? Totally opposite directions. Who uses heaven to symbolize the pit? Revelation 12 is not referring to Revelation 20. There is a literal 1000 year period between the two events. Satan is cast out of heaven then 42 months later, bound in the pit. Or bound in the pit and not even given 42 months. Revelation 20 does not need Revelation 19 to happen. Revelation 19 happens if this verse is fulfilled:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

If God does not give this authority, because it is not necessary to carry out God's plan, then there will not even be a 42 month period. There is no authority granted in Revelation 20:8

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,"

There is no authority and power associated with this deception. These people will be decieved like Eve was and think God is withholding what they really deserve. Or some deception that makes them want to do battle against authority. But they have no power nor authority to change the status quo. In fact when they finally get to their destination, they are consumed by fire. Satan probably assured them, they would certainly not be consumed by fire. Why just march thousands of miles for the sole purpose of being consumed by fire?

 

[Timtofly]

Yeah, clearly, the point he was making was that Jesus was beheaded.

Or they died on a Cross, instead of being beheaded. This first resurrection is a type, physical. Jesus had a physical bodily resurrection. To start out a 1000 year period those beheaded will have a physical bodily resurrection.

Of course Revelation 20 does not start in the first century. It starts after the Second Coming.

You realize it is Amil that claim Revelation 20:4 literally happened at the Cross. The fact is both then and after the Second Coming it is just a physical resurrection, and nothing more. Revelation 20 is not symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Revelation 20 literally describes the who, when, how, and where. It is definitely not the Cross in the first century.

 

[Timtofly]

, I do not and I've already told you that before. Are you even trying or are you purposely acting like you don't know what I believe even after I've told you several times now? You clearly are not reading my posts carefully. I've told you that I'm an Amillennialist more than once. Amils believe that He returns AFTER the thousand years (and after Satan's little season).

They believe that but no verse that declares that in all of Scripture. Even you admit the 42 months is not Satan's little season. Those 42 months are all the time given to Satan. If Satan does not get 42 months, his time is even shorter, less than 8 days, tops.

Also when Satan is cast out of heaven it is after the Second Coming and final harvest. That is the whole point. There is no one left on earth covered by the Atonement, under the alter.

The only ones potentially left are those who choose to be beheaded. What is Satan going to accuse them of, suicide for chopping off their own head? Accuse them of not taking the mark? Accuse them of wanting their names to remain in the Lamb's book of life?

Those beheaded and physically resurrected in Revelation 20:4 are still sinners, still deserve to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, but how does anything they do point to the fact they accepted the Atonement prior to making a choice to be beheaded? They definitely are not going to be raptured. Loosing one's head assures one will physically be dead. Since there is only a resurrection in Revelation 20:4, how does a rapture even fit after the 7th Trumpet already sounded 42 months earlier? Where is any rapture mentioned in conjunction of the 7th Trumpet?

Is it that hard to see that only those beheaded during those 42 months are going to have eternal life? The only act of preservation is having one's head chopped off. All left alive at Armageddon will have been marked and removed from the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I'm asking what the point is to meet Christ in the air if we're then taken to heaven after that. Why not just meet Him in heaven instead? What is the reason for meeting Him in the air in your opinion?

So all on earth can see how the church is glorified. Christ and the angels come to earth at that time. The 144k are sealed on earth at that time. All on earth know at that moment judgment is coming. They will know they missed being glorified and presented to God as the church of Christ. If they met inside Paradise perhaps those on earth could not see into Paradise? They will see the church then enter Paradise, and after that they will have to deal with Jesus as Prince and the angels on earth for the final harvest.

 

[Timtofly]

That verse isn't talking about a time after the Second Coming. That's ridiculous. If you actually read 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 carefully and without bias then you would see that the destruction that occurs on the day of His second coming results in the complete destruction of earth (the surface of the earth). So, the verse you quoted is clearly not talking about something that happens after the second coming, but rather before.

And your support for this is? This is right after the pit is opened up, the 5th Trumpet. This is during the judgment of the sheep and goats, and Christ is already on earth. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 already happened.

The harvest and tribulation is not done by remote control. Christ and the angels literally come to earth.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (angels come to earth), and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

Christ is bringing the angels to earth.

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Just making a vague comment that all are destroyed is not being specific, when there are verses more specific. When those at the 6th Seal see the angels come to earth they are still alive and breathing, asking who will save them from God's wrath. They are not dead. Only after the 7th Seal is opened, will the tribulation start. There are 4 Trumpets to sound until the pit is opened and the rebellious angels are loosed from the pit. By the time the 7th Trumpet sounds, they will have entered heaven. Only then will they be cast out along with Satan prior to the 42 months given to Satan. So men wanting to die and cannot is during the final harvest when the angels will be gathering this harvest.

When you claim the surface of the earth is destroyed, that would not include humans figuratively nor literally. Humans live on the surface, humans are not the surface. I agree all the works of mankind are destroyed. Heaps of concrete, piled up like mountains. I mean they are the same material. No where does it say the mountains are destroyed, just moved out of their locations. Along with all the continents are moved out of their locations. The continents happened at the Flood, that is why the earth was new. Instead of one continent there were several. At the time of the Second Coming, Humans were hiding out in the mountains, and obviously protected from the fire. The Trumpets and Thunders have yet to be fulfilled.

That is why we ask not to lump all the Trumpets and Thunders as a singularity. They all unfold after Christ and the angels are gathering the final harvest. The sheep and goats are gathered out of the Nations and brought to Jerusalem to be judged and sentenced. The angels will be the "chief enforcement officers". Obviously humans have no authority, they are the ones being judged. Of course this is not your common left behind scenario, but that does not make amil a better scenario. Amil lump all the judgments together in a single instance, and do not allow for any chronology to unfold. The first Trumpet, does not take us back to the Cross. The first Thunder does not take us back to the Cross. There is literally no historical point in saying Revelation is multiple camera angels of the church age.

One chapter, explains how Satan wanted to destroy Christ since Jesus was born. Hardly a repeat of church history. Just a simple way to introduce Satan into the final harvest. It never even claims unbound or loosed from any pit. If anything the 5th Trumpet gives Satan the key in heaven and he comes to earth to let out his own angels. What verses show Jesus came with angels after Satan was allowed to open the pit? Revelation 6 already brought Christ and the angels to earth. Satan was allowed to open the pit so his angels could "sow the tares" so to speak. Christ and the angels were already on earth doing that, by "sowing the wheat", so to speak. The 144k were already sealed to do the same. This harvest cannot start until after the tribulation of those days and the rapture of the church. Where in the parable does it claim the church is involved?

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. He doesn't seem to realize that it relates the 5th trumpet which is before the last (7th) trumpet.

And you have no proof, the 7th Trumpet is not the one used, in the 6th Seal, but not the last time that particular Trumpet is used. A Trumpet can be used more than once, and does not mean the Seals have to happen at the same time as the Trumpets. The Trump of God is brought to earth with the angels, at the Second Coming. But it will also sound again after the other 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

You don't seem to understand the 5th and 6th Seal is the rapture and Second Coming. Funny how you want them all to happen at the moment of the Second Coming, but then claim I am confused that it will be carried out over the next days and months in a systematic order. If it all happens in an "instant" why make a fuss over the order, like I am pointing out? You don't even allow time for Satan to have 42 months, which clearly is after the Second Coming, because it is mentioned as last leading up to Armageddon after the 7th Trumpet already sounded. Can you prove the 42 months happened prior to the 7th Trumpet? Is the 5th Trumpet 42 months before the 7th Trumpet? Is the rapture and Second Coming even mentioned at the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Can a Trumpet be used more than once, especially if it is the Trump of God?

 

[Timtofly]

It looks like you do not have Spirit of Christ to really understand what Christ actually talked about the thousand years here BY COMPARING SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE! We were merely a witness to it and you do not like the Truth because it destroys your literal doctrines. It is NOT literal years. It is spiritual discerned.

So you read 2 Peter 3:8:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one indefinite time period is with the Lord as an indefinite time period, and an indefinite time period as one indefinite time period."

Why did Peter not say so from the get go?

 

[Timtofly]

Unless you haven't noticed, Revelation 19 also involves the 2nd coming. When are any of you ever going to point out in that chapter where it depicts anything involving your hyper literal interpretation of some of 2 Peter 3? There is zero in Revelation 19 that gives the impression the universe and the earth are literally engulfed in flames at the time, thus literally burning up babies, children, adults, and all animals, at the time.

I sure hope that no Amil that interprets 2 Peter 3 hyper literally like that thinks there will be literal animals on the new earth. How would they get there if they are all burned to death during the 2nd coming because the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames?

Revelation 19 involves the battle of Armageddon. The Second Coming is not to the valley of Megiddo. The Mount of Olives is no where near Megiddo. I am not sure that there will be a new plain for 60 miles all the way to Megiddo, but definitely not the same event. The Second Coming could make the area around Jerusalem more accessible from Megiddo, but the Second Coming happens way before Revelation 19.

Of course Amil seem to incorporate all the events into a singularity, instead of how John witnessed Revelation unfolding. Historist leave very little left to happen in Revelation as well.

I agree that John does not portray a seven year period, but if Satan is given one second of authority, it will be a solid 42 months. Nothing figurative nor past history. But the 42 months are post the 7th Trumpet, no matter how much re-arranging people attempt.

I have pointed out that the 7th Trumpet will not stop for the whole 42 months, and no one accepts that either. Just because the week (of the 7th Trumpet) is split in half to allow the 42 months, does not mean the Trumpet stops, it just means it cannot stop until after Armageddon, if there is an interruption of the week itself. The week is just a time period. The Trumpet is letting us know when that time period starts and finishes.

 

[Timtofly]

There's no need. It's what scripture clearly teaches. I've showed you several times before that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 that Christ was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality and at His second coming those who belong to Christ will be resurrected unto bodily immortality. Very simple. But, since you're completely lacking in spiritual discernment you can't even discern the simple truth that Paul taught there.

So your discernment cannot even discern 3 different events? Why is there even an order, if you reject a resurrection at each point?

There are 3 events and they happen in order. The OT were physically resurrected at the Cross. They were the firstfruits of Christ's Atonement. The next event is the Second Coming. Only those alive on earth will be resurrected. They are the only ones in dead corruptible bodies. Then comes the end after the 1000 years are over in Revelation 20. Christ will reign for 3000 years, and the last enemy is Death.

You are the one refusing to see the 2000 years between the Cross and the Second Coming. And the 1000 years between the Second Coming and the NHNE.

If you think that no time has passed since the Cross, and no time will pass at His coming, so be it. You only see 1 event in these two verses instead of 3, separated with predetermined time frames.

Should God have told Paul there would be 2000 years between the Cross and the Second Coming to avoid all arguments over the fact, no one could know when the Second Coming happens?

Is my discernment wrong because it is too specific, and yours is vague?

Paul never mentions bodily immortality once. That is your own opinionated terminology. Paul says we put on immortality. He never calls the body itself immortality.

You have yet to explain why God did not allow souls into heaven/Paradise prior to the Cross. If only souls exist in Paradise, why wait for the Cross? Jesus came to earth physically and opened Paradise physically. That is why there is an order. Those from the OT are not waiting for physical bodies. They already have them. Those who have gone on ahead to Paradise are not waiting for physical bodies. They already have them. Physical bodies do not make one immortal, neither is it the soul putting on immortality. That is Greek mythology. Paul claims in 2 Corinthians 5, we have a permanent building as opposed to this fleshly tent waiting in Paradise. That permanent building is incorruptible. This tent is corruptible. Corruptible meaning with a sin nature, incorruptible meaning without a sin nature. Sin is not allowed in Paradise.

To claim that souls have to wait for a physical body until the Second Coming is denying the very physical resurrection of Jesus Christ Himself for those in Christ. Why would Jesus have a physical body and no one else? Talk about nonsense. If you get to heaven before the Second Coming, you would prefer to walk around as a naked unclothed soul?