The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

[LoveGodsWord]

I read your thread, and the following statement seems to answer my question:

Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...​

Hi Kilk, nice to see you again. Yes that statement is the same as what I have been saying in this thread here where I have been saying God's Israel in the new covenant is no longer only those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but now include all those who have been born again of the Spirit of God into Gods' new covenant promise by believing and following what Gods' Word says. This and the above statement are simply summarizing a Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; Galatians 5:16; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:1-23

However, this statement doesn't use the terms "physical" or "spiritual," so just to make sure, are you saying that Israel in the Old Testament refers to the physical descendants of Abraham (i.e., those he physically is the ancestor of, regardless of whether they were obedient) while Israel in the New Testament is spiritual, referring to those in Christ (i.e., Christians, regardless of whether they are physical descendants of Abraham)?

That is exactly what I am saying and this is demonstrated in the scriptures already provided. I do not tend to use the terms physical or spiritual Israel as these words are not used in the scriptures but "Flesh" (physical) and "Spirit" (spiritual) are used and for me the scriptures make more sense. Keep in mind here that Israel born of the flesh (physical) were only cared for and protected by God when they believed and followed what Gods' Word says. If they continued in sin and unbelief they were cast off and received Gods' judgements and were no longer His people until they repented from their sins and unbelief and returned to God. According to the scriptures the name "Israel" is simply a name given by God to those who believe and follow Gods' Word. If we do not believe and follow God's Word even if we are born of the seed of Abraham we are not truly Gods' people. This is what Jesus was talking about in John 8:31-47.

To illustrate what I believe, I'd go to Romans 11:17-24. Here, Israel is compared to a cultivated olive tree. The branches are all the members of Israel. It used to contain all Jews, whether believers or unbelievers. However, under the New Testament, the standard for whether or not you qualify as "Israel" changed from whether you're a physical descendant, to instead be whether you're a believer. Therefore, the unbelieving Jews were cut off the tree, while believing Gentiles were grafted in. In other words, the branches originally were just the Jews, whether believing or unbelieving. Then, the unbelieving ones were cut off and replaced with believing Gentiles, so all believers--Jew or Gentiles--are now part of the tree in the New Testament, and all unbelievers--Jew or Gentiles--are now outside the tree.

Yes you would have noticed I believe the same thing from Romans 11 in the linked thread that you visited. Therefore if we are not a part of God's Israel as defined in the scriptures as all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says, we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise as gentile believers are now grafted in with Jewish believers and we are all now one in Christ (God's Israel) *Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 11:13-27.

Once again if we follow the origins of the name of Israel from the old to the new covenant scriptures, the name Israel is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow God's Word. In the old covenant Gods' Israel was all those who were born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham in fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham to make his seed or descendants a great nation because Abraham believed and followed Gods' Word.

However, Israel born of the flesh (physical Israel) where only under God's care and guidance if they continued in faith to believe and follow what God's Word says. If they rebelled against God through unbelief and sin which Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 warns us about then God cast them aside and they received Gods' judgements. So even in the old covenant just because someone was born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham did not mean they were Gods' true Israel if they did not believe and follow what God's Word says (see what Jesus says in John 8:31-47). We are only God's Israel therefore if we believe and follow what God's Word says (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:1-4).

So why is this brought up many times in our conversation against your arguments here? Well very simply believing and following what God's Word says is the condition of being a part of God's true Israel. If we are not a part of God's Israel by believing and following what Gods' Word says then we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise which is made only to Israel. Therefore if we do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says we are not a part of God's Israel and have no part in God's new covenant promise. According to the scriptures, all of God's Word is for all of Gods' people not some of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 10:11).

Do you agree that the Old Testament was specifically for physical Israel? (Again, Romans 9:6-7 makes clear there are two senses of "Israel.")

Well I thought I have answered this already a number of times now and also see the previous section but I will add a little more here. As shown through the scriptures already Gods' true Israel is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow his Word regardless of the covenants. Even those who where born of the flesh (physical Israel) of the old covenant were cast away if they did not believe and follow Gods' Word and received the judgements of God which is why Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 warn us about unbelief and sin. You may also want to also consider that even foreigners from other nations that believed and followed Gods' Word were allowed to become a part of Israel in the old covenant if they were circumcised. So the main point I believe the scriptures are showing is that being a part of Gods' true Israel is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (see John 8:31-47; Romans 9:6-8).

I'd disagree with the premise of Question (1). In other words, since Paul assembled with Christians on the first day of the week in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and since he also specifically ordered churches to give on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:1-2), I disagree that there is absolutely "no Scripture" in support of Sunday. After all, Paul could've ordered the churches to give on the Sabbath, but he instead said the first day of the week.As for Question (2), we obviously should follow the word of God over the traditions of men. So that causes us to ask: Was Paul's order to give on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:1-2) a commandment of God or a tradition of men? Also, when he assembled with Christians on the first day of the week, was that of God or of men? Stated in a nutshell, are Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 of God or of men?

Well I probably do not need to add too much more to what @SabbathBlessings has already posted but none of the scriptures you have provided in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 and elsewhere state that Sunday was any different to any other day of the week and was certainly never used as a replacement for Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. We can look at the scripture detail if your interested?

DOES ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 20:17 SUPPORT SUNDAY WORSHIP AS A REPLACEMENT FOR GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT?

Acts of the Apostles 20:7 [7], And on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

According to the scriptures in the new testament it was not uncommon for the disciples to gather together every day of the week to break bread and share Gods Word as shown in Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. So according to the scriptures doing so on Sunday was no different to what they were doing every other say of the week. The reason we are told that the disciples were gathering together is told in the very scripture you quoted above in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 which was because Paul was leaving the next day. They gathered together for one last meal to share God’s Word because Paul was leaving the next day. There is nothing in this scripture that says Gods’ seventh day Sabbath from God’s 10 commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living. This is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. In fact we already know from Acts of the Apostles 17:2 it was Paul’s custom as was the rest of the disciples to keep the Sabbath according to God’s commandment *Exodus 20:8-11. So Acts of the Apostles 20:7 does not support a teaching that Gods’ 4th commandment is no longer a requirement for Christian living and it does not say this anywhere in this scripture.

DOES 1 CORINTHIANS 16:1-2 SUPPORT SUNDAY WORSHIP AS A REPLACEMENT FOR GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT?

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 [1], Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do you. [2], On the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Once again by simply reading what is in the scriptures like we did in the previous scripture from Acts of the Apostles 20:7 shows that there is nothing in this scripture that says God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living just like there is no scripture that says it is ok for us now to lie and steal and commit murder. To claim that 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 is saying that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians in the new testament is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 simply states what it says. Paul was passing though to the Corinthians on His way to Jerusalem (v8) and wanted the collections of the Saints to be done before he arrived.

Let’s dig a little deeper. These two are translations below are representative of the majority of translations and also the Greek.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 King James Bible
Upon the {1}. first day of the week let every one of you {2}. lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, {3}. that there be no gatherings when I come.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
{1}. On every Sunday, let each person of you {2}. lay aside in his house and keep that which he can, {3}. so that when I come there will be no collections.

The sections of 1 Corinthians 16:2 are broken down into context order within the scripture for discussion here as marked above in the last two parallel scripture examples above.

So the command given by Paul for the collection of the saints here is that {1} on the first day of the week (every Sunday) let every person {2} lay by him in store - The Greek being παρ ̓ ἑαυτῷ τιθέτω θησαυρίζων par' heautō tithetō thēsaurizōn. Meaning let him lay up at home (by himself), treasuring up as he has been prospered. The Greek phrase, "by himself," means, the same as at home. Let him set it apart by himself at home; let him designate a certain portion; let him do this by himself, when he is at home. Let him set it aside and put it in store, separate it and save it up, as God hath prospered him - The word "God" is not in the original, but it is evidently understood, and necessary to the sense. The word rendered "hath prospered" (εὐοδῶται euodōtai)

Now note the reason here for this command within the scripture is given in the same verse in the last section of the scripture {3} That there be no gatherings when I come - No collections λογίαι logiai, 1 Corinthians 16:1). The apostle means that there should be no trouble in collecting the small sums; that it should all be prepared; that each one might have laid by what he could give; and that all might be ready to be handed over to him, or to whomsoever they might choose to send with it to Jerusalem.

................

CONCLUSION: According to the scriptures Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 shows that God's people met everyday of the week to break bread and worship God. This does not make every day of the week a holy day of rest or a replacement for God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. As shown in the scripture contexts Acts of the Apostles 20:7 the reason why Gods' people were meeting together was because Paul was departing them the next day. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 was a command given by Paul for the collection of the saints that every man was to put aside money as God had prospered him at home by himself on the first day of the week (Sunday) because Paul was passing through he could collect all the money on his way to Jerusalem. There is absolutely - nothing, in these scriptures that says Sunday is a Holy day or that God's 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished is there? So according to the scriptures neither Acts of the Apostles 20:7 or 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 support Sunday as a day of worship in place of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. Sunday or the first day of the week as no different to any other day of the week according to the scriptures and there is no scripture that tells us that we are to observe it in place of God's 4th commandment. Sunday worship as we have it today is simply a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by the scriptures.

However, my focus in this thread isn't about the first day of the week but about the Sabbath. (Again, I agree that they're two separate things.) You mentioned that you're going to be busy, and I'm busy as well. With this in mind, I fear that if I reply to all your posts at length, it will not only take a lot of time on my end, but the end-product might be even longer than your posts, and then your response might have to be as long or longer than mine. Are you fine if my responses to some of the posts are shorter than the posts themselves, then? This would save me time, and then your response would take less time for you as well.

Well I do not mind either way as I LoveGodsWord (excuse the pun). What ever you think is manageable is ok with me as far as your responses are concerned or we can simply go one post at a time if that is more convenient. I do not think we can separate Sabbath and Sunday worship here to be honest because for many Sunday is a replacement for Gods' 4th commandment. I think we should be able to agree that the claims in support of Sunday worship as a replacement for Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments as shown in the scriptures already is not supported in the scriptures. It is a teaching and tradition of men that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9.

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

That could possibly be helpful; I'm not sure. I don't have such a list. Perhaps someone else on this thread could make such a list? I don't know.

(I know your time is currently limited, so I'll keep this brief. If you would like a fuller explanation, just let me know.)

I have asked many times, but so far no one has posted such a list.

If there is a clear scriptural process or algorithm for determining if a law is a shadow or a universal, it would seem easy to produce a list of the universals.

Indeed, one would expect to find many examples of such a list on the internet. But no.

If there is no clear process or algorithm, then I question our ability to separate them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

(I know your time is currently limited, so I'll keep this brief. If you would like a fuller explanation, just let me know.)

I have asked many times, but so far no one has posted such a list.

If there is a clear scriptural process or algorithm for determining if a law is a shadow or a universal, it would seem easy to produce a list of the universals.

Indeed, one would expect to find many examples of such a list on the internet. But no.

If there is no clear process or algorithm, then I question our ability to separate them.

I respectfully disagree with your claims here, because your claims here are simply a distraction between God's eternal law (the 10 commandments) spoken by God alone and written by God alone with the finger of God on two tables of stone and the Mosiac book of the "shadow laws" for remission of sins that were written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) that point to Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant promise written in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Your claims here have already been addressed with detailed scripture responses but you claim you do not understand them and the conversation then simply stops. It is a very simple process to determine what is a "shadow law" and what is not a shadow law. Gods' 10 commandments are all Gods' eternal laws written on stone because they are eternal. They give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) as shown in the new covenant scriptures in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and also in Psalms 119:172. God's 10 commandments are therefore the standard of right doing if obeyed from the heart through faith and wrong doing if broken in unbelief and sin. Any sub laws or commandments from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) or scriptures from the new covenant that teach us what is right and wrong in context to the covenant are what God wants us to believe and follow by faith.

However the "shadow laws" are all the prophetic laws that are given in the Mosaic book of the covenant that pointed to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10) and the work and role of Jesus in the new covenant as our great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us. The prophetic "shadow laws" therefore include all the laws written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) for remission of sins. As posted to you already, these include all the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the meat and the drink offerings and the annual Feast days, circumcision that all point to Jesus as the coming Messiah and his work in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man and God's new covenant promise to all who choose to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

Perhaps you can pray about the above. Let's start with one example here. Why do you think we no longer need to be circumcised in the new covenant and does not being circumcised mean that Gods' 10 commandments do not need to be kept?

Take Care.

 

[Kilk1]

Hi Kilk, nice to see you again. Yes that statement is the same as what I have been saying in this thread here where I have been saying God's Israel in the new covenant is no longer only those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but now include all those who have been born again of the Spirit of God into Gods' new covenant promise by believing and following what Gods' Word says. This and the above statement are simply summarizing a Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; Galatians 5:16; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:1-23

That is exactly what I am saying and this is demonstrated in the scriptures already provided. I do not tend to use the terms physical or spiritual Israel as these words are not used in the scriptures but "Flesh" (physical) and "Spirit" (spiritual) are used and for me the scriptures make more sense. Keep in mind here that Israel born of the flesh (physical) were only cared for and protected by God when they believed and followed what Gods' Word says. If they continued in sin and unbelief they were cast off and received Gods' judgements and were no longer His people until they repented from their sins and unbelief and returned to God. According to the scriptures the name "Israel" is simply a name given by God to those who believe and follow Gods' Word. If we do not believe and follow God's Word even if we are born of the seed of Abraham we are not truly Gods' people. This is what Jesus was talking about in John 8:31-47.

Yes you would have noticed I believe the same thing from Romans 11 in the linked thread that you visited. Therefore if we are not a part of God's Israel as defined in the scriptures as all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says, we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise as gentile believers are now grafted in with Jewish believers and we are all now one in Christ (God's Israel) *Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 11:13-27.

Once again if we follow the origins of the name of Israel from the old to the new covenant scriptures, the name Israel is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow God's Word. In the old covenant Gods' Israel was all those who were born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham in fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham to make his seed or descendants a great nation because Abraham believed and followed Gods' Word.

However, Israel born of the flesh (physical Israel) where only under God's care and guidance if they continued in faith to believe and follow what God's Word says. If they rebelled against God through unbelief and sin which Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 warns us about then God cast them aside and they received Gods' judgements. So even in the old covenant just because someone was born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham did not mean they were Gods' true Israel if they did not believe and follow what God's Word says (see what Jesus says in John 8:31-47). We are only God's Israel therefore if we believe and follow what God's Word says (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:1-4).

So why is this brought up many times in our conversation against your arguments here? Well very simply believing and following what God's Word says is the condition of being a part of God's true Israel. If we are not a part of God's Israel by believing and following what Gods' Word says then we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise which is made only to Israel. Therefore if we do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says we are not a part of God's Israel and have no part in God's new covenant promise. According to the scriptures, all of God's Word is for all of Gods' people not some of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 10:11).

Well I thought I have answered this already a number of times now and also see the previous section but I will add a little more here. As shown through the scriptures already Gods' true Israel is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow his Word regardless of the covenants. Even those who where born of the flesh (physical Israel) of the old covenant were cast away if they did not believe and follow Gods' Word and received the judgements of God which is why Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 warn us about unbelief and sin. You may also want to also consider that even foreigners from other nations that believed and followed Gods' Word were allowed to become a part of Israel in the old covenant if they were circumcised. So the main point I believe the scriptures are showing is that being a part of Gods' true Israel is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (see John 8:31-47; Romans 9:6-8).

Well I probably do not need to add too much more to what @SabbathBlessings has already posted but none of the scriptures you have provided in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 and elsewhere state that Sunday was any different to any other day of the week and was certainly never used as a replacement for Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. We can look at the scripture detail if your interested?

DOES ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 20:17 SUPPORT SUNDAY WORSHIP AS A REPLACEMENT FOR GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT?

Acts of the Apostles 20:7 [7], And on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

According to the scriptures in the new testament it was not uncommon for the disciples to gather together every day of the week to break bread and share Gods Word as shown in Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. So according to the scriptures doing so on Sunday was no different to what they were doing every other say of the week. The reason we are told that the disciples were gathering together is told in the very scripture you quoted above in Acts of the Apostles 20:7 which was because Paul was leaving the next day. They gathered together for one last meal to share God’s Word because Paul was leaving the next day. There is nothing in this scripture that says Gods’ seventh day Sabbath from God’s 10 commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living. This is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. In fact we already know from Acts of the Apostles 17:2 it was Paul’s custom as was the rest of the disciples to keep the Sabbath according to God’s commandment *Exodus 20:8-11. So Acts of the Apostles 20:7 does not support a teaching that Gods’ 4th commandment is no longer a requirement for Christian living and it does not say this anywhere in this scripture.

DOES 1 CORINTHIANS 16:1-2 SUPPORT SUNDAY WORSHIP AS A REPLACEMENT FOR GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT?

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 [1], Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do you. [2], On the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Once again by simply reading what is in the scriptures like we did in the previous scripture from Acts of the Apostles 20:7 shows that there is nothing in this scripture that says God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living just like there is no scripture that says it is ok for us now to lie and steal and commit murder. To claim that 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 is saying that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians in the new testament is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 simply states what it says. Paul was passing though to the Corinthians on His way to Jerusalem (v8) and wanted the collections of the Saints to be done before he arrived.

Let’s dig a little deeper. These two are translations below are representative of the majority of translations and also the Greek.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 King James Bible
Upon the {1}. first day of the week let every one of you {2}. lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, {3}. that there be no gatherings when I come.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
{1}. On every Sunday, let each person of you {2}. lay aside in his house and keep that which he can, {3}. so that when I come there will be no collections.

The sections of 1 Corinthians 16:2 are broken down into context order within the scripture for discussion here as marked above in the last two parallel scripture examples above.

So the command given by Paul for the collection of the saints here is that {1} on the first day of the week (every Sunday) let every person {2} lay by him in store - The Greek being παρ ̓ ἑαυτῷ τιθέτω θησαυρίζων par' heautō tithetō thēsaurizōn. Meaning let him lay up at home (by himself), treasuring up as he has been prospered. The Greek phrase, "by himself," means, the same as at home. Let him set it apart by himself at home; let him designate a certain portion; let him do this by himself, when he is at home. Let him set it aside and put it in store, separate it and save it up, as God hath prospered him - The word "God" is not in the original, but it is evidently understood, and necessary to the sense. The word rendered "hath prospered" (εὐοδῶται euodōtai)

Now note the reason here for this command within the scripture is given in the same verse in the last section of the scripture {3} That there be no gatherings when I come - No collections λογίαι logiai, 1 Corinthians 16:1). The apostle means that there should be no trouble in collecting the small sums; that it should all be prepared; that each one might have laid by what he could give; and that all might be ready to be handed over to him, or to whomsoever they might choose to send with it to Jerusalem.

................

CONCLUSION: According to the scriptures Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 shows that God's people met everyday of the week to break bread and worship God. This does not make every day of the week a holy day of rest or a replacement for God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. As shown in the scripture contexts Acts of the Apostles 20:7 the reason why Gods' people were meeting together was because Paul was departing them the next day. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 was a command given by Paul for the collection of the saints that every man was to put aside money as God had prospered him at home by himself on the first day of the week (Sunday) because Paul was passing through he could collect all the money on his way to Jerusalem. There is absolutely - nothing, in these scriptures that says Sunday is a Holy day or that God's 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished is there? So according to the scriptures neither Acts of the Apostles 20:7 or 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 support Sunday as a day of worship in place of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. Sunday or the first day of the week as no different to any other day of the week according to the scriptures and there is no scripture that tells us that we are to observe it in place of God's 4th commandment. Sunday worship as we have it today is simply a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by the scriptures.

Well I do not mind either way as I LoveGodsWord (excuse the pun). What ever you think is manageable is ok with me as far as your responses are concerned or we can simply go one post at a time if that is more convenient. I do not think we can separate Sabbath and Sunday worship here to be honest because for many Sunday is a replacement for Gods' 4th commandment. I think we should be able to agree that the claims in support of Sunday worship as a replacement for Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments as shown in the scriptures already is not supported in the scriptures. It is a teaching and tradition of men that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9.

Take Care.

I only have time for a short response now, but if I might add this really quickly, it is true about Gentiles being able to participate in the Old Covenant to an extent. However, they couldn't do it as Gentiles but essentially had to become Israelites, proselytizing through circumcision. This changed in the New Testament, and it was a big issue dealt with in Acts of the Apostles 15.

Would Ephesians 2:13-19 suggest that a covenant specifically for Gentiles wasn't in place under "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (NKJV), but that Jesus' blood ended it, bringing Jews and Gentiles into one for a change?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Kilk, we seem to be going all over the place here but I will add a few comments below if they might be helpful to your thread and our discussion.

I only have time for a short response now, but if I might add this really quickly, it is true about Gentiles being able to participate in the Old Covenant to an extent. However, they couldn't do it as Gentiles but essentially had to become Israelites, proselytizing through circumcision. This changed in the New Testament, and it was a big issue dealt with in Acts of the Apostles 15.

Yes this is true that those who wished to be a part of God's Israel under the old covenant that if they were not born of the seed of Abraham they needed to be full proselytes and the males had to be circumcised. However this was not a requirement for new covenant believers (Acts of the Apostles 15) as circumcision of the flesh was simply a "shadow law" of Gods' new covenant promise (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12.

Would Ephesians 2:13-19 suggest that a covenant specifically for Gentiles wasn't in place under "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (NKJV), but that Jesus' blood ended it, bringing Jews and Gentiles into one for a change?

According to the scriptures and the context of Ephesians 2:15, the new covenant brings and end to the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles and the separation between them by the commandments contained in “ordinances (Ephesians 2:15). God’s 10 commandments were never contained in ordinances. The Greek word used here is the same words used in Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting contained in ordinances that were against us.” The Greek word used here for “ordinances” is δόγμα (dógma | G1378) which means a civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law that was against us. So the reference here is not to God’s 10 commandments but the laws in “ordinances” (civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) that separated Jews from the Gentile believers in Ephesians 2:15. The laws of separation included the separation of the nation of Israel from all other nations (e.g. Nehemiah 13:3) and the laws for remission of sins. Gentile believers were not allowed to partake of the laws for remission of sins unless they became proselytes and fully converted to Judaism and were circumcised. Jesus broke down this middle wall of partition by His death putting and end to the old covenant laws for remission of sins (earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision and the annual Feast days and their meat and drink offerings) that all point to Christ and were fulfilled in Him at his death nailing them to the cross *Colossians 2:14 that he might create in himself of the two (Jew and Gentile believers) one new man, so making peace and might reconcile them both (Jewish and gentile believers) in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby (sins penalty of condemnation and death) *Ephesians 2:15-16.

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

I respectfully disagree with your claims here, because your claims here are simply a distraction between God's eternal law (the 10 commandments) spoken by God alone and written by God alone with the finger of God on two tables of stone and the Mosiac book of the "shadow laws" for remission of sins that were written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) that point to Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant promise written in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Your claims here have already been addressed with detailed scripture responses but you claim you do not understand them and the conversation then simply stops. It is a very simple process to determine what is a "shadow law" and what is not a shadow law. Gods' 10 commandments are all Gods' eternal laws written on stone because they are eternal. They give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) as shown in the new covenant scriptures in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and also in Psalms 119:172. God's 10 commandments are therefore the standard of right doing if obeyed from the heart through faith and wrong doing if broken in unbelief and sin. Any sub laws or commandments from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) or scriptures from the new covenant that teach us what is right and wrong in context to the covenant are what God wants us to believe and follow by faith.

However the "shadow laws" are all the prophetic laws that are given in the Mosaic book of the covenant that pointed to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10) and the work and role of Jesus in the new covenant as our great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us. The prophetic "shadow laws" therefore include all the laws written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) for remission of sins. As posted to you already, these include all the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the meat and the drink offerings and the annual Feast days, circumcision that all point to Jesus as the coming Messiah and his work in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man and God's new covenant promise to all who choose to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

Perhaps you can pray about the above. Let's start with one example here. Why do you think we no longer need to be circumcised in the new covenant and does not being circumcised mean that Gods' 10 commandments do not need to be kept?

Take Care.

I'll be happy to write a fuller response if you wish. Just let me know.

If you believe it is easy to separate the shadow laws from the universal laws, please post your list of universal laws.

If I ask how many laws are in the ten commandments, I assume you would easily answer 10. If you cannot or will not post a list of universal laws, can you at least say how many other universals there are? 10 or 20? Or several hundred?

The reason I don't encourage ritual circumcision is because it is a shadow law.

And you take care as well, my friend! Peace be with you!

 

[Kilk1]

I'll be happy to write a fuller response if you wish. Just let me know.

If you believe it is easy to separate the shadow laws from the universal laws, please post your list of universal laws.

If I ask how many laws are in the ten commandments, I assume you would easily answer 10. If you cannot or will not post a list of universal laws, can you at least say how many other universals there are? 10 or 20? Or several hundred?

The reason I don't encourage ritual circumcision is because it is a shadow law.

And you take care as well, my friend! Peace be with you!

You might be on to something, but I'm not sure yet. As far as it concerns me, feel free to offer a fuller explanation of what you're getting at.

 

[Kilk1]

Hi Kilk, we seem to be going all over the place here but I will add a few comments below if they might be helpful to your thread and our discussion.

Yes this is true that those who wished to be a part of God's Israel under the old covenant that if they were not born of the seed of Abraham they needed to be full proselytes and the males had to be circumcised. However this was not a requirement for new covenant believers (Acts of the Apostles 15) as circumcision of the flesh was simply a "shadow law" of Gods' new covenant promise (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12.

According to the scriptures and the context of Ephesians 2:15, the new covenant brings and end to the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles and the separation between them by the commandments contained in “ordinances (Ephesians 2:15). God’s 10 commandments were never contained in ordinances. The Greek word used here is the same words used in Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting contained in ordinances that were against us.” The Greek word used here for “ordinances” is δόγμα (dógma | G1378) which means a civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law that was against us. So the reference here is not to God’s 10 commandments but the laws in “ordinances” (civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) that separated Jews from the Gentile believers in Ephesians 2:15. The laws of separation included the separation of the nation of Israel from all other nations (e.g. Nehemiah 13:3) and the laws for remission of sins. Gentile believers were not allowed to partake of the laws for remission of sins unless they became proselytes and fully converted to Judaism and were circumcised. Jesus broke down this middle wall of partition by His death putting and end to the old covenant laws for remission of sins (earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings, circumcision and the annual Feast days and their meat and drink offerings) that all point to Christ and were fulfilled in Him at his death nailing them to the cross *Colossians 2:14 that he might create in himself of the two (Jew and Gentile believers) one new man, so making peace and might reconcile them both (Jewish and gentile believers) in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby (sins penalty of condemnation and death) *Ephesians 2:15-16.

Take Care.

Okay, so it seems we agree that 1) the Israel of the Old Testament was of the flesh (including, to an extent, proselytes to Judiasm), 2) the Israel of the New Testament is of the spirit, and 3) that the new covenant broke down the middle wall of separation by not requiring Gentiles to become Jews. With that in mind, I'm probably ready to begin getting to your posts, now.

 

[Kilk1]

I know how you feel. So I guess I promised you a detailed critique and response to your recent posts here so I found sometime on the Sabbath to respond in detail. I think rather than post a bunch of giant posts I might break them down section by section into smaller posts so they are easier to respond to and understand where I am in disagreement.

All right, glad to finally be getting to this! As we talked about before, my responses to each of the posts may vary in length. Some may be as long as the posts you made, while some may be shorter. Some may be even longer than the posts of yours I'm replying to; we won't know till it happens.

I did not see in your responses any scripture that was asked for in support of the claims of the 22 questions asked in post # 171 linked. Is it fair to say that there is no scripture to support the claims in the questions being asked of you there? Anyhow I will show why in my responses from the scriptures. I hope you do not mind multiple smaller posts. In these posts every section of your previous posts have been addressed in detail. If you have any questions or comments I am happy to address them by Gods' grace.

Take Care.

After this post was made, we discussed this some. I had some to say on it already. Would you agree that there was at least some significance placed on the first day of the week in 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, where giving was specifically said to be done on Sundays rather than on Sabbaths? Responding to my claims, you referenced two translations:

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 King James Bible
Upon the {1}. first day of the week let every one of you {2}. lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, {3}. that there be no gatherings when I come.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
{1}. On every Sunday, let each person of you {2}. lay aside in his house and keep that which he can, {3}. so that when I come there will be no collections.

Would you agree that in both versions, it's clear that Sunday, not the Sabbath, is when giving was to occur? While it isn't specified to be a day of rest, if Sunday is specified as the day for giving, there's at least some significance placed on Sunday (as opposed to no significance at all), right? Again, though, I'm not arguing that Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath," so it isn't my main focus here.

 

[Kilk1]

Thanks Kilk for spending some time on your posts. Let's look at the detail of your response and pray that we can examine everything in the light of God's Word that it might be a blessing to us all. Let's look at your response to my first question.

Your response here...

No problem. Let’s go through your response here section by section comparing scripture with scripture.

All the questions asked are based around providing scripture to show the claims that most Christian church's teach in regards to God’s 4th commandment and Sunday worship as it’s replacement.
So in the case of question 1 it is asking where is the scripture that says..... [1]. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest? So when you say here that there is no scripture for this teaching you are correct and I agree. There is no scripture that says Gods' 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest.

This is a man-made teaching and tradition handed down by the Roman Catholic Mother Church to mainstream Protestantism that is not biblical that has led many to break Gods' 4th commandment which is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and has led many away from Gods' Word to follow man made teachings unsupported by scripture. It is interesting to note that Jesus warns us about doing this exact same thing in Matthew 15:3-9 where he says that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. This begs the question if Gods' 4th commandment which is Gods' Word and one of God's 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11 that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 has not been abolished and there is not a single scripture in all of God's Word in support of Sunday worship, then then who are we believing and following according to the scriptures; God or man?

more to come...

I feel my response to this post would be the same as my response to the previous post. If there's anything in this post (or in any others) that I miss, but that you want me to respond to, feel free to let me know.

 

[Kilk1]

I think I will spend some time on your claims in regard to Colossians 2:16 being a reference to Gods’ 4th commandment as it seems that this scripture is the foundation to most of your responses and arguments, you’re making in all of your posts. So, it would be good to examine these claims in detail to see if Gods’ 4th commandment is a “shadow law” of anything. If not, what is Colossians 2:16 referring to from the old covenant and what is the within scripture contexts of Colossians 2:16 that is referenced as being “shadows of things to come in Colossian 2:17. So let’s spend some time here to see if Colossians 2 is saying that God’s 4th commandment was a shadow of things to come. I will start off by saying that respectfully disagree with your claims here that Colossians 2:16-17 is saying that God’s 4th commandment has been abolished but allow me to explain why from the scriptures and look at the scripture contexts and what Paul is talking about by directly referencing the same scriptures from the Old Testament which Paul was referring to.

[...]

[...] The difference between God’s 4th commandment Sabbath of creation and the annual ceremonial Feast sabbaths (plural) is that Gods’ 4th commandment is linked only to the “seventh day” of creation every “seventh day” of the week on a continual weekly cycle, where as the ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days are only linked directly to specific annual Feast days and observed at one time every year.

Thanks for this detailed writing on the Sabbaths! I seem to agree with the statement above. I especially think the following sentence of yours is important: "All of the above including God’s 4th commandment were linked directly into the annual Feast days *Leviticus 23:3." I'm not sure if God's 4th commandment is linked to "annual Feast days," since it's weekly, but you probably just mean that the weekly Sabbath is part of the holy days discussed in the chapter. If so, amen! Leviticus 23 is a good passage to see a list of holy days, including the 4th commandment, as you said. Numbers 28 is another such chapter, dealing directly with the sacrifices of weekly Sabbaths (Numbers 28:9-10), New Moons (Numbers 28:11-15), and annual feasts (Numbers 28:16-31; Numbers 29).

Now lets look at the within scripture context of Colossians 2:16 and what Paul is referring to from the old covenant scriptures.

COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16], Let no man therefore judge you in (1) MEAT OR IN DRINK, or in respect of an (2) HOLY DAY (ἑορτή; G1859; Feast day; Festival; Feast), or of (3) THE NEW MOON, or of (4) THE SABBATH DAYS (sabbaths plural; noun genitive neuter plural in the Greek)

According to the scriptures, the context of Colossians 2:16 is that the meat and the drink offerings of the new moons and the feast days and their sabbaths…

COLOSSIANS 2:17 are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The within scripture context of Colossians 2:16 is that the meat and drink offerings and the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the Feast days are the “shadows of things to come” but the body us of Christ. That is, because the annual Feasts were all shadows pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and His work on our behalf in the new covenant as Jesus as our great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) they are now fulfilled in that to which they pointed to Christ!

I'd like to point out, in case there's any disagreement, that the plural "Sabbaths" can be used for the weekly Sabbath just as much as the singular "Sabbath" can. In fact, it seems that the plural in the Greek with reference to the Sabbath can be translated either as singular or plural, as it's translated differently in various translations of Colossians 2:16. A similar example of this would be Matthew 12:10; while the plural "Sabbaths" is used, various translations translate the term in the singular.

Matthew 12:5 is another good example, where both the singular and plural are used in the original Greek to reference the weekly Sabbath. (And again, depending on your version, the plural term [used first] may be translated in the singular, but the Greek has both plural [used first] and singular [used the second time].) Anyway, just wanted to clarify that the weekly Sabbath can be referenced whether using the singular or plural.

Let’s look now to what Paul in Colossians 2:16 is quoting directly from in the old covenant scripture in Ezekial 45 which says…

EZEKIEL 45:17-21, It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the burnt offerings, (1) MEAT OFFERING AND DRINK OFFERINGS, at the (2) FEASTS, the (3) NEW MOONS, and the (4) SABBATH{S}, AT ALL THE APPOINTED (2) FEASTS OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL: [...]

Note the same words used from Ezekiel 45:17 and Colossians 2:16 and their link to the old covenant laws for remission of sins in burnt offerings and animal sacrifices for sin atonement.

And again note the following old covenant scriptures…

1 CHRONICLES 23:31 and whenever (1) burnt offerings were presented to the LORD on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moon (2) feasts and at the appointed festivals. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.

2 CHRONICLES 2:4 [4] Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making (1) burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moons and at the appointed (2) festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.

HOSEA 2:11 [11], I WILL STOP ALL HER CELEBRATIONS: her (2) yearly festivals, her (3) New Moons, her (4) Sabbaths and all her (2) appointed festivals.

So this part's important. Here, you reference Ezekiel 45:17 (as well as other passages) where the same expression is used (in the Greek) as in Colossians 2:16. Similar to your list, the passages I found that refer specifically to the Greek terms for "festivals," "new moons," and "Sabbaths" are Ezekiel 45:17 as well as 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Nehemiah 10:33, and Hosea 2:11.

I first want to say that I wholeheartedly agree that looking at how these terms are used outside Colossians 2:16 is key to knowing what they mean within Colossians 2:16. If we say the terms mean one thing here and another thing everywhere else, then we're assigning arbitrary definitions to Colossians 2:16. Rather, our interpretation of the phrase "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" should be consistent everywhere the phrase is used.

So here's the question, and it's important: What do the terms mean outside Colossians 2:16? By using these terms, does Ezekiel 45:17 (and the other passages) refer to all the holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28 EXCEPT Leviticus 23:3 and Numbers 28:9-10, or do these terms reference ALL of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28? I believe the terms refers to ALL, not PART. Surely Ezekiel 45:17 isn't saying the priest will give offerings on all holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28 EXCEPT the weekly ones of Numbers 28:9-10!

Would you agree that this would be absurd, and that Ezekiel 45:17 (and the other passages) refer to ALL the holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28, including the weekly Sabbath (Leviticus 23:3 and Numbers 28:9-10)? Whether we're talking about Ezekiel 45:17 or anywhere else where the terms "festivals," "new moons," and "sabbaths" are used in the Old Testament (2 Chronicles 2:4; 2 Chronicles 31:3; Nehemiah 10:33; Hosea 2:11), no commentator I've read denies that the phrase encompasses ALL the days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28 (rather than claiming it's all EXCEPT Leviticus 23:3 and Numbers 28:9-10). For reference, here are the links I've cited earlier:

• 2 Chronicles 2:4 Commentaries
• 2 Chronicles 31:3 Commentaries
• Nehemiah 10:33 Commentaries
• Ezekiel 45:17 Commentaries
• Hosea 2:11 Commentaries

So any time "festivals," "new moons," and "sabbaths" are used outside of Colossians 2:16, everyone (Sabbatarian or non-Sabbatarian) agrees it encompasses the weekly, monthly, and annual holy days, not just the monthly and annual ones. It's only when we get to Colossians 2:16 that some commentators (the Sabbatarian ones) suddenly think it means something different, that all of the sudden the terms "festivals, "new moons," and "sabbaths" change to mean all EXCEPT the weekly Sabbath. Again, our interpretation of the phrase "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" should be consistent everywhere the phrase is used. The fact that all the commentaries agree the weekly Sabbath is included all the other times the phrase "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" are used is significant, as their biases don't creep in outside of Colossians 2:16.

So you're right that commentaries aren't infallible and can be biased. However, when they aren't thinking about Colossians 2:16, their bias on what the passages mean aren't present, so they all (Sabbatarian or otherwise) agree that the weekly Sabbath is included in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11. It's significant that all the commentaries agree here. It's only when the same exact terms are said to be something not to judge others in that suddenly, the Sabbatarian commentaries see another meaning.

So again for emphasis, our interpretation of the phrase "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" should be consistent everywhere the phrase is used.

SUMMARY: Colossians 2:16-17 is that the meat and drink offerings and the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the Feast days which are the “shadows of things to come” but the body is of Christ. That is because the annual Feasts days were all Mosiac “shadow laws” from the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) [...] Not God’s 4th commandments which is outside of the annual Feast days that points backwards, not forwards to things to come. *Exodus 20:8-11. You’re mixing up the “ceremonial shadow sabbaths” in the Feast days with God’s eternal Sabbath *Exodus 31:16 that will be continued to be kept forever in the new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23) of Gods’ 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7) under the new covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27)



……………….

WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE SABBATH OF CREATION TO BE A “SHADOW”?

The above scriptures and the within scripture contexts proves that Colossians 2:16 is talking about meat and drink offerings and the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) IN THE FEAST DAYS. These being all shadows of things to come – the body of Christ. What I want to do now is to show why it is impossible for God’s 4th commandment “seventh day” creation Sabbath to be a “shadow law” of anything.

[...]

Lets look at the commandment that points backward not forwards...

Exodus 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER [memorial pointing backwards not forwards to things to come] the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> {Because it is a memorial looking back to the finished work of creation that JESUS made as a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day} [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God {This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK}: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT. {Reference is backward to Genesis 2:1-3 not forward to things to come}

Therefore, it is impossible for God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath to be a "shadow law" as all the "shadow laws" are laws to do with God's plan of salvation from sin after the fall of mankind from the Mosaic book of the law. God's Sabbath was created when there was no sin, no fall, no law and no plan of salvation because mankind was in perfect harmony with God. – So there is nothing in Colossians 2:16 that is evidence that it is in reference to Gods’ 4th commandment not being a requirement for Christian living in the new testament.

more to come...

I grant the main thing you're arguing here: That the Sabbath points backward. However, as I explained above, to make "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" mean one thing in Colossians 2:16 and another thing everywhere else is arbitrary. Again, I assume you'd agree that Ezekiel 45:17 (and other related verses) isn't saying the priest will give offerings on all holy days of Numbers 28 EXCEPT the weekly ones of Numbers 28:9-10! No, the reference is to ALL the holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28, right? If so, then making Colossians 2:16 mean something different would be arbitrary—unless there's a strong reason to believe it's different this one time, anyway.

You argue that there is a strong reason to believe otherwise: If the holy days of Colossians 2:16-17 are shadows pointing forward to things to come, then how could it include the Sabbath, which points backward? However, this isn't a strong argument upon further consideration. Why? Because there isn't a rule forbidding forward-pointing shadows from also being a memorial. For example, the Passover points backward to when God passed over the Israelites in Egypt (Exodus 12:26-27), a day to be "remembered" (Exodus 13:3), but obviously none of this stops the Passover from pointing forward to "Christ, our Passover, [who] was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7, NKJV). So some holy days can point backward but also point forward if the Scriptures say so. And I believe the Sabbath points forward to Christ's heavenly Sabbath rest as taught in Hebrews 4:9-11, referencing a Sabbath rest we must be "diligent to enter," one that not even Joshua obtained (Hebrews 4:8). We'll probably get to this later.

Since the backward-pointing argument doesn't work, then we're back to where we started: Our interpretation of the phrase "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" should be consistent everywhere the phrase is used. Here are three questions (you'll only need to answer two of the three):

1. Do you agree that "festivals new moons, and sabbaths" in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11 reference ALL the holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28, not all the holy days EXCEPT the one in Leviticus 23:3 and Numbers 28:9-10?
2. If you answer "No" to the first question (thinking the phrase referred to all the holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28 EXCEPT the one in Leviticus 23:3 and Numbers 28:9-10), then is Ezekiel 45:17 saying the priest will give offerings on all the holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28 EXCEPT the weekly ones of Numbers 28:9-10? Why wouldn't the priest obey Numbers 28:9-10 as well?
   
3. If you answer "Yes" to the first question (agreeing that it's a reference to ALL the holy days of Leviticus 23 and Numbers 28, including the one in Leviticus 23:3 and Numbers 28:9-10), then why would Colossians 2:16's reference to "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" be any different than everywhere else the phrase is used? After all, holy days such as the Passover can be a memorial (Exodus 12:26-27; Exodus 13:3), but obviously that doesn't stop it from pointing forward to "Christ, our Passover, [who] was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7, NKJV), right?

Also, by the way, if your reference to Exodus 31:16 is to prove the Sabbath is "eternal," lasting forever, then remember that the Levitical priesthood is called an "everlasting priesthood" for Israel of the flesh (Exodus 40:15; Numbers 25:13), but it didn't last forever (Hebrews 7:12) for Israel of the spirit (Hebrews 7:12). In the same way, the Sabbath can be perpetual as a sign for Israel of the flesh (Exodus 31:16-17), but that doesn't prove it lasts forever (Colossians 2:14-17).

 

[Kilk1]

We probably do not need to go any further than that last posts above that prove that Colossians 2:16 is not a reference to God’s 4th commandment but to the “shadow laws” linked to the old covenant earthly Sanctuary and the new moons that determine God’s appointed times in the annual Feast days and their ceremonial sabbaths that are all linked to the old covenant laws for remission of sins through the Leviticual Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings etc but I will make some comments on the rest of your posts out of good faith with a detailed scripture critique as promised.

According to the scriptures Gods’ Word is specifically for God’s people because in the new covenant there is now no separation between Jews and Gentile believers in Christ because all are now one in Christ and Jesus has broken down the middle wall of separation making all now one body of believers in Gods’ Word (see Ephesians 2:10-19). Therefore, to us “believers” in God’s Word “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” – 2 Timothy 3:16 and again “all these things happened to them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the world are come.

According to Gods’ Word in the new covenant scriptures a Jew is no longer someone that is born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but is but everyone that has been born of the Spirit to believe Gods’ Word through faith *Romans 2:28-29; Romans 9:6-8. Therefore, what makes us Abraham’s seed today is faith in God’s Word according to Gods’ promise of salvation. (See Galatians 3:28-29). Therefore, all of God’s Word is for all of Gods’ people who have been born again to walk in Gods’ Spirit through faith (2 Timothy 3:16; Ephesians 2:10-19; Romans 9:6-8; John 3:3-7; Galatians 5:16).

According to the scripture sin is defined as the transgression of God’s law and not believing and following what God’s Word says in 1 John 3:4 and Romans 14:23. Those who have been born of God to walk in God’s Spirit do not practice sin (breaking God’s law and not believing God’s Word) according to John in 1 John 3:3-9. Sin (breaking God’s law and not believing God’s Word) according to the scriptures is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10; see also Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Word of God therefore is for everyone that chooses to believe and follow Gods’ Word.

more to come...

You're right that there is no longer Jew or Gentile. That said, at the time Genesis was written, there was Jew or Gentile since Christ hadn't yet destroyed the middle wall of separation. That said, I agree that overall, Genesis is for everyone. However, specifically, it was for Israel of the flesh just like specifically, 1 Corinthains was for the church at Corinth (though very beneficial for us all).

 

[Kilk1]

The book of Genesis is good for everyone of God’s people to know because it shows to everyone that believes and follows Gods Word the origin of creation, sin and the fall of mankind and what happens afterwards, and the revelation of God’s plan of salvation for all mankind who choose to believe and follow what God’s Word says. This is needed as it shows God as the creator of heaven and earth in Genesis 1. It shows the origin of the creation week and God as the creator of heaven and earth resting on the “seventh day” of the week (Sabbath) and that God set apart the “seventh day” and blessed the “seventh day” of the week as a holy day for all mankind (Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:1-3).

It also shows the continued rebellion of mans departure from God and that man continued to become more and more evil against God and that the world become so evil that it needed to be destroyed by a flood *Genesis 6:5-8. Yet during all these times of mankind's rebellion against God, there was always a people that believed and followed Gods’ Word (e.g. Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5; Genesis 6:8; Genesis 19:14; Genesis 26:5; Genesis 39:7-9 etc too many to list). So once again under the new covenant promises, God’s Word is for all of God’s people who believe and follow what God’s Word says because our faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. God's Israel are simply all those who believe and follow God's Word.

Again, I agree that overall, Genesis is for everyone. However, specifically, it was for Israel of the flesh just like specifically, 1 Corinthians was for the church at Corinth. But to deny that it was also for everyone in general would be dangerous, so I certainly don't want to leave that impression.

There was no time before the sun and the moon as it is the sun and the moon and the rotation of the earth that determines time. God is outside of time and it does not apply to him but that said the sun and the moon were indeed made at creation in Genesis 1:14-19 to determine time as we know it to show the days, months, years and the seasons.

There was no recording of time by man before the sun and moon, but obviously, time existed. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been a first day with an "evening and morning," a second day with an "evening and morning," and a third day with an "evening and morning" all before (yes, chronologically in the past, before) the fourth day began, right? So there was time, but it wasn't used by man until time passed into the sixth day.

I posted on this earlier and provided you with the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon reference you provided above. Psalms 104:19 states that [19], He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knows his going down. So letting all of the scriptures interpret scripture we must take God at his Word. So how exactly does the moon determine the seasons of the year (spring, summer, autumn and winter)? The moon measures the months of the years that determine the seasons of the year. According to Genesis 1:14 the creation week scriptures it is the sun and the moon together that determines that seasons of the year. Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them [sun and moon] be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years

According to the scriptures, the creation account does not account for sin as mankind had not been created and neither had he sinned and fallen away from Gods’ grace as he had not yet even been created. Mankinds sin and departed from God did not happen until after he was created on the sixth day of the creation week, and he did not sin until after God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the “seventh day” of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:1-3 and Genesis 3:1-5). God did not outline his plan of salvation for all of mankind until after the fall in Genesis 3:14-15. Therefore it is impossible for Genesis 1:14 to be referring specifically to the annual Feast days in place of “seasons” as appointed times in Genesis 1:14 because mankind had not yet sinned and the annual Feast days were a part of God’s plan of salvation for the sins of mankind.

That said as posted earlier to you, when using Hebrew and Greek word meaning it is the context and application that determines the word meanings and application not definitions outside of context which is why the majority of bible translations translate the Hebrew word מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) as "seasons" in the English for Genesis 1:14. Of course this same word has meaning and application in scripture context to God’s appointed times of the annual Feast days. However, this came latter and is different in context and subject matter to Genesis 1:14. The application of Genesis 1:14 is to מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) is to God’s appointed times of the seasons of the year made by God as determined by the sun and the moon which is the creation context of the scriptures in Genesis 1:14.

In other scripture context the Hebrew word מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) is translated and applied to the Mosaic covenants annual Feast days which are also "appointed times" of the year just like the context of and scripture application of מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) was to "seasons" in Genesis 1:14. Both events (seasons and annual Feasts of the Mosaic covenant) were "Gods appointed times" but the creation appointed times in Genesis 1:14 were to the "seasons" of the year determined by the sun and the moon, while the annual Feast days of the old covenant were to God's appointed times for his people to meet together. It is impossible for Genesis 14 to be a reference to the annual Feast days because at creation there was no sin, no law, no mankind, no plan of salvation given because there was no sin. Also the annual Feast days did not go for a season. I am now sure how any of this relates to providing scripture for question 1 but was happy to discuss it.

more to come...

I think this would be a good place for me to point out that I think it's inaccurate to say there was no plan of salvation before man existed. The plan for Jesus' death for mankind existed before there even was a "mankind." Isn't the plan said to be before the foundation of the world in 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Revelation 13:8?

Regardless, whether you understand "seasons" as referring to Mosaic feasts or to spring, summer, fall/autumn, and winter (again, I know of not a single verse where "seasons" is used that it refers to spring, summer, fall/autumn, and winter), it's still clear that while it was "made" on Day 4, it wasn't "given" to man on Day 4 (there wasn't a "man" to give it to!). Similarly, the plan for Jesus' sacrifice "existed" before the foundation of the world, but it wasn't implemented until centuries later.

So showing God resting on the seventh day of creation may show the Sabbath existed in Genesis (if God resting on the seventh can be called a "Sabbath," a term Genesis doesn't use), but we know it wasn't "given" to man until the time of Moses (as said in Ezekiel 20:12), and specifically as a "sign" to Israel, showing the "man" involved was specifically, Israel of the flesh, the Israel that God brought out of Egypt (Deuteronomy 5:15). Similarly, circumcision was "given" to man so that "man" was circumcised (John 7:22), but that doesn't mean it was "all mankind"; it was just Israel of the flesh.

 

[Kilk1]

Everything provided on the first six days in God’s creation Genesis 1:1-25 was needed and provided for the survival of mankind after he was created in Genesis 1:26-31. It is the scripture subject matter and context that determines when 1) God makes something and 2) when it is given. In regard to the seventh day of creation mankind needed to know first that God was the creator of all things in heaven and earth if Adam and Eve were to enter into Gods Sabbath rest that he made, blessed and set apart as a holy day of rest for all mankind at creation (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3). For me it is not biblical to teach that God made the Sabbath for all of mankind as Jesus stated in Mark 2:27 when mankind was made on the 6th day of the creation week and God makes the Sabbath for mankind on the “seventh day” of the creation week only to not give to to mankind until Exodus 20 as one of God’s 10 commandments. That is like saying that no one knew God’s law pre Mt Sinai but we know that the scriptures specifically state that is not true in Genesis 26:5. Therefore to me God created the Sabbath for mankind who was created on the 6th day of the week in Genesis 1:26-31 on the “seventh day” of the week in Genesis 2:1-3 where he blessed and set the “seventh day” of the weel apart from all the other days of the week as a holy day of rest for all mankind (Mark 2:27).

But the Bible tells us the Sabbath was given/made known during the time of Moses (Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14), so we have to believe Scripture. Do you believe Ezekiel 20:12 and Nehemiah 9:14? If so (and of course you do ), you must agree that the Sabbath wasn't known/given when Moses was born, or he wouldn't have been able to make it known. Even if the Sabbath were given in Genesis (and such is never said), it must have been forgotten if it were to be made known. So either way, whether the world forgot the Sabbath or never knew it in the first place, we known it wasn't known during Moses' birth. And when it was made known/given, it was given specifically as a sign for Israel of the flesh. And we know it's Israel of the flesh since the wall of separation hadn't been broken yet. The branches weren't broken off the tree to graft in Gentiles until the time of Christ. In fact, even the Ten Commandments make clear that it's Israel of the flesh in saying that the Sabbath is a memorial of when Israel was brought out of Egypt (Deuteronomy 5:15). It wasn't Israel of the spirit that was led out of Egypt, and it certainly wasn't all of mankind that was, so it's Israel of the flesh in consideration.

So at the time of Moses, the Sabbath wasn't known. God, through Moses' hand, made it known (Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14), and did so specifically for Israel (Deuteronomy 5:15). Since it's specifically for the nation of Israel, Israel of the flesh, then Mark 2:27's reference to "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) doesn't mean anything more than it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

According to the scriptures Genesis 2:1-3 means that God made the Sabbath for mankind on the “seventh day” of the creation week and that God’s “seventh day” creation Sabbath is now linked directly into the continuous weekly cycle throughout every week of the year. God did not “bless” or make the “seventh day” of the week a “holy day” for himself. According to Jesus he made it for mankind (Mark 2:27) as a day of rest and a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth. God has written His seventh day Sabbath as a memorial of creation for all the world to see that he is the only true God of heaven and earth. Of course he made it for Adam and Eve. Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for mankind in Mark 2:27. Adam and Eve were made on the sixth day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. God made the Sabbath for mankind on “the seventh day” of the creation week where he blessed it and made the “seventh day” of the week a “holy day” of rest for all mankind according to the scriptures in Genesis 2:1-3. This is indeed what the scriptures say.

more to come...

Again, it's time to remember that important rule: If the Scriptures teach that the Sabbath is specifically for physical Israel in connection with the obsolete old covenant, not something for everyone, then "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 doesn't mean anything more than it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews." Thus, the Sabbath was made for Jews. Whether the Sabbath was made at Genesis or not, we're never told it was "given" then. No it was "given" at the time of Moses (Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14) and it's clear the "man" it was given to is the Jewish man (Deuteronomy 5:15).

If we make "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 mean "all mankind," then we'd actually make Jesus contradict Exodus 31:17, Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12, and even the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:15, passages which specify the Sabbath as a covenant sign between God and the physical nation of Israel that was brought out of Egypt. The Sabbath couldn't be a covenant sign between God and Israel if it were already for everyone else anyway, right? No, it means the same thing it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

 

[klutedavid]

That could possibly be helpful; I'm not sure. I don't have such a list. Perhaps someone else on this thread could make such a list? I don't know.

The entire law was the shadow.

Everything from the unleavened bread to the high priesthood itself, all types, shadows of the approaching messiah. Jesus was the bread from heaven, the divine high priest.

Everything the law described is only found fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:1
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect.

Jesus was perfectly moral and fulfilled all the moral law. That is beyond any question.

Alas, for us, the law only grants the knowledge of sin.

The law was never obeyed by humanity, not even close, how could it be obeyed?

 

[Kilk1]

I do not have a problem with any of these views to be honest but allow me to explain why. I will just pass the comment though that the book of Jubilees is not scripture it is Apocrypha of unknown origins written in between the old and the new testament scriptures. The text here starts off by saying “And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works.” This is the context of what you provided above. So the text is not saying that the Sabbath was made at creation only for Israel. That would be in contradiction of what Jesus says in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for mankind. The evidence here is that there was no Jew, no Israel, no sin, no law and no plan of salvation given when God made the Sabbath for all mankind at creation *Genesis 2:1-3. Keep in mind here there was also no nations to keep the Sabbath here only Adam and Eve the very first of all mankind. According to the scripture as shown earlier, Gods’ Word of course is only for Gods’ people. God’s people are represented by Israel in the flesh born of the seed of Abraham in the Old Testament scriptures and Gods’ Israel in the new covenant are represented as all those who have now been born again in the Spirit to believe and follow Gods’ Word says *Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29. So understanding who Gods Israel is here shows is in harmony with the scriptures showing that Gods Israel are only all those who believe and follow what Gods’ Word says. This is what the scriptures teach.

Here, you said, "So the text is not saying that the Sabbath was made at creation only for Israel. That would be in contradiction of what Jesus says in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for mankind." Respectfully, I disagree on all counts here. The text (Jubilees 2) is saying it's only for Israel. Notice in verses 16-17, it says, "And He finished all his work on the sixth day -all that is in the heavens and on the earth, and in the seas and in the abysses, and in the light and in the darkness, and in everything. And He gave us a great sign, the Sabbath day, that we should work six days, but keep Sabbath on the seventh day from all work." This doesn't mean it's for everyone, as verses 31-32 make clear: "And the Creator of all things blessed it, but he did not sanctify all peoples and nations to keep Sabbath thereon, but Israel alone: them alone he permitted to eat and drink and to keep Sabbath thereon on the earth. And the Creator of all things blessed this day which He had created for blessing and holiness and glory above all days."

You said that if this were true, it "would be in contradiction of what Jesus says in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for mankind." No matter how many times I say that "man" doesn't prove "all mankind," you seem to keep repeating this. However, the statement wouldn't contradict what Jesus says unless you assume that ánthrōpos in Mark 2:27 means "all mankind." However, even you agree it sometimes means "Jews" as in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, and Hebrews 7:28.

Absolutely, but you still cannot see how both views are correct by not understanding who Gods’ Israel is in the new covenant. According to the scriptures and not reading into the scriptures, Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, for mandkind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. Because there was no sin there was no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3).

This was already addressed in the previous section. As posted earlier I do not have a problem with any of these views to be honest. This is because if we understand who God’s Israel is in the old and the new covenant scriptures you will see the Gods’ Israel simply is a name given by God that represents all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says. See the detailed scripture response to this section posted earlier. Of course, all of God’s Words are only for those who believe and follow them. Gods’ Words are not for those who do not believe and do not follow them. Those represent the wicked who do not believe and follow God’s Word.

more to come...

Both views can't be shown to be correct by going to the "new covenant," as the Sabbath was given before the new covenant. Again, the wall of separation hadn't been broken yet. The branches weren't broken off the tree to graft in Gentiles until the time of Christ. In fact, even the Ten Commandments make clear that it's Israel of the flesh in saying that the Sabbath is a memorial of when Israel was brought out of Egypt (Deuteronomy 5:15). It wasn't Israel of the spirit that was led out of Egypt, and it certainly wasn't all of mankind that was, so it's Israel of the flesh in consideration.

Again, as I wrote already, the contradiction would be if we make "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 mean "all mankind," since that would actually make Jesus contradict Exodus 31:17, Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12, and even the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:15, passages which specify the Sabbath as a covenant sign between God and Israel of the flesh that was brought out of Egypt. The Sabbath couldn't be a covenant sign between God and Israel if it were already for everyone else anyway, right? No, it means the same thing it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

 

[Kilk1]

The entire law was the shadow.

Everything from the unleavened bread to the high priesthood itself, all types, shadows of the approaching messiah. Jesus was the bread from heaven, the divine high priest.

Everything the law described is only found fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:1
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect.

Jesus was perfectly moral and fulfilled all the moral law. That is beyond any question.

Alas, for us, the law only grants the knowledge of sin.

The law was never obeyed by humanity, not even close, how could it be obeyed?

That's a good point. Hebrews 10:1 makes it sound like "the law" itself is the shadow. In fact, even Colossians 2:16-17 doesn't appear to call the various things "shadows" (plural) but "a shadow" (singular), suggesting all the various parts collectively (the law) are the shadow. I'll tag @LoveGodsWord to this point as well, since I think it's worthy of consideration.

 

[Kilk1]

Agreed, this is what the scriptures teach so we should believe them.

According to the scriptures, Jesus tells us exactly who the scriptures were made for in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for man (mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings). When God made the Sabbath for mankind there was only Adam and Eve representing the parents of all mankind created on the 6th day of the creation week as shown in Genesis 1:26-31.

See previous sections. As posted earlier according to the scriptures, if we understand who God’s Israel is in the old and the new covenant scriptures we see that Gods’ Israel simply is a name given by God that represents all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says. Of course, all of God’s Words are only for those who believe and follow them. Gods’ Words are not for those who do not believe and do not follow them. Those represent the wicked who do not believe and follow God’s Word. God’s Israel according to the scriptures are simply those who believe and follow what God’s Word says (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 3:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29)

As posted to you earlier it is the scripture context that determines word meaning and application to subject matter. When Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Israel no Moses, no sin, no law no plan of salvation given to mankind because mankind had not yet sinned. There was only Adam and Eve made in the image of God representing the first of all mankind that Jesus made the Sabbath for on the seventh day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31: Genesis 2:1-3). So the subject matter here proves that the Sabbath was made and given to mankind at creation.

For me this is not proof at all. As posted earlier context and subject matter with prayerful help from God’s Spirit, determine word meanings for scripture interpretation. Firstly, a Jew is also a part of mankind [Greek, anthropos]. This is the context and application of John 7:22-23. As posted earlier, the context and subject matter here and application of man [Greek, anthropos] in John 7:22-23 is to circumcision (subject matter). Circumcision was not given to God’s people of the old covenant at creation but was given to Abraham of the sign of the covenant that God made with him and His seed that shall become a great nation (Genesis 17:9-14). There was no Abraham, no Jew, no Israel no Moses, no sin, and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin and no circumcision because there was no covenant given to those who believed and followed Gods’ Word at creation. Only Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31 that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week in Genesis 2:1-3.

According to the scripture in the very words of Jesus the Sabbath was made for man (mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27. The scriptures do not say anywhere that the Sabbath was made for Jews or physical Israel. This is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. The evidence of this is in Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 where God created the Sabbath for mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings

As Jesus says on the “seventh day” of the creation week. According to the scriptures when God created the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob, no Moses, no Jew, no Israel, no law, no sin and no plan of salvation given. There was only Adam and Eve representing the first of all mankind made in the image of God created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31) that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

more to come....

I think I already replied to most of this but will respond to one specific point:

There was no Abraham, no Jew, no Israel no Moses, no sin, and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin and no circumcision because there was no covenant given to those who believed and followed Gods’ Word at creation. Only Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31 that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week in Genesis 2:1-3.​

Of course, the "plan of salvation" part appears to be false, as already discussed. But this whole argument is a long way of saying "Since the Sabbath was made while Adam and Eve were alive, it was given then, too, and thus, the 'man' of Mark 2:27 must mean 'all mankind.'" (This is a paraphrase, but you get the idea. ) We've already established that it's false to claim that when something was "made" is when it's "given." So while Genesis may show when the Sabbath was "made" (assuming God's seventh-day rest is called a "Sabbath"), it doesn't show when it was "given." In Ezekiel 20:12, we're told when the Sabbath was given (after Egypt), to whom it was given (Israel of the flesh, led out of Egypt, c.f. Deuteronomy 5:15), and why it was given⁠—to be a "sign" showing that God "sanctifies them" (i.e., sets them apart). This passage makes clear that the Sabbath was given during Israel, for Israel, and only for Israel (i.e., to set them apart). And again, how can you "give" something to someone if they already have it? This shows Israel didn't have the Sabbath before Moses.

 

[Kilk1]

This is repetition already addressed in a previous section, but I will touch on it again here. As posted earlier, I do not have a problem with any of these views to be honest but allow me to explain why. Firstly the book of Jubilees is not scripture it is Apocrypha of unknown origins written in between the old and the new testament scriptures. Keep in mind here I do not disagree with anything written here either. The text here starts off by saying “And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works.” This is the context of what you provided above.

So the text is not saying that the Sabbath was made at creation only for Israel. That would be in contradiction of what Jesus says in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for mankind. The evidence here is that there was no Jew, no Israel, no sin, no law and no plan of salvation given when God made the Sabbath for all mankind at creation *Genesis 2:1-3. Keep in mind here there was also no nations to keep the Sabbath here only Adam and Eve the very first of all mankind. According to the scripture as shown earlier, Gods’ Word of course is only for Gods’ people.

God’s people are represented by Israel in the flesh born of the seed of Abraham in the Old Testament scriptures and Gods’ Israel in the new covenant are represented as all those who have now been born again in the Spirit to believe and follow Gods’ Word says *Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29. So understanding who Gods Israel is here shows is in harmaony with the scriptures showing that Gods Israel are only all those who believe and follow what Gods’ Word says. This is what the scriptures teach.

Respectfully, as shown through the scriptures already both interpretations are correct if you understand who Gods Israel represents in the old and the new covenant and that the name Israel that God gave to His people is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29). Gods’ Word is for believers not unbelievers. According to the scriptures the name Israel and it’s use can be traced all through the old and new covenant where it simply represents all that believe and follow what Gods Word says (more scripture support here linked).

Simply, this is because there was no Sabbath before the creation of the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3. The root word of “Sabbath” is שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) which is translated as “rested or rest” in English from Genesis 2:2-3 and it is the verb form of Sabbath or how the Sabbath (noun) is kept by resting. The Hebrew word שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) literally means to keep the Sabbath by resting. It is how the Sabbath is kept and is a verb. The word translated at Sabbath is שַׁבָּת (shabbâth | H7676) which comes from שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) is the noun of what is being kept through resting and simply is a description or name of what is being kept through resting.

more to come...

You said, "This is repetition already addressed in a previous section," and it seems your response here has already been addressed, so I guess I can move on to the next post.

 

[Kilk1]

This was already addressed some time ago in our discussion. As posted earlier you’re disregarding that fact that Jesus says that the sabbath was made for mankind and that the Sabbath was made at creation when there was only Adam and Eve representing all of mankind (Mark 2:27; Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:1-3). It is true however and I agree that we are not told much about the Sabbath after it was created and given to Adam and Eve after it was created in Genesis 2:1-3. We do know however that Gods’ people had and practiced Gods’ laws because the Exodus as shown in Genesis 26:5 where God states that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. If you look up the Hebrew word used for law here, you will see that it is תֹּורָה (tôwrâh | H8451). Yet nothing is said about God’s people knowing about God’s laws before Exodus 20. For me if according to the scriptures Gods' people were keeping God's laws before Mt Sinai as shown in Genesis 26:5 I believe it is presumption to think that they were not keeping God's Sabbath when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man at creation. Regardless, of whether one believes the Sabbath was kept after creation or at Mt Sinai it was given again by God as one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *1 John 3:4 at the Exodus *Exodus 20:8-11 so there is no argument that can be used to simply disregard what the scriptures say here of anyone of God's 10 commandments. As James teaches in the new testament scriptures, if we knowingly break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them. *James 2:10-11; see also Hebrews 10:26-31.

more to come...

People may have obeyed God in Genesis, but the Sabbath is never listed as one of the commandments they had to obey in Genesis. No, it wasn't given until Ezekiel 20:12. And again, how can you "give" something to someone if they already have it? This shows Israel didn't have the Sabbath before Moses, right?

Also, if you believe the Ten Commandments weren't for Israel of the flesh but for all mankind, even those in Genesis, do you believe that people in Genesis obeyed Deuteronomy 5:25, remembering being brought out of Egypt as they kept the Sabbath? Certainly not!