Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Der Alte]

Yes. The general impression, which we see in your quotes, is that a few very good went directly to the world to come, a few very wicked to Gehenna permanently and normal Jews to Gehenna temporarily.
I haven't found a good detailed history, but my impression from Bernstein's account is that the original maxim was that all Israel has a portion in the world to come, which would imply that all Jews get out of Gehenna, but exceptions kept getting added.
These descriptions of suffering make hell a reasonable translation, as I said. My caveat is that it seemed to be common that many people would get out. That's not something that the term "hell" normally implies.
The varying list of exceptions make it unclear whether Jesus was talking about Gehenna as temporary punishment except for a few determined enemies, or something more like what we think of as hell.

I think I can say without concern of being contradicted Jesus attended temple and synagogues for 25 years +/- and knew what His contemporary Jews taught about their beliefs including the belief in a place of eternal, everlasting punishment for the unrighteous which they called both sheol and Ge Hinnom.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [Note: A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [Note: A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[Note; A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught e.g. “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..In Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times if the Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed e.g.,

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16 | USCCB​

 

[Servus]

Except in UR recollection the punishment due is restorative, so the cross is of no effect.

Restoration and reconciliation can not occur without the cross.

So Christ's cross spares those who confess Christ in this life nothing.

Millions have testimony of many awful things Christ's cross speared them from in this life. And not only speared themselves but often others around them. The substance abusing husband and father who became clean and sober etc. People have been spared from hunger, because Christ's cross transformed me from being a misanthrope into someone willing to help others. I could go on at great length about what Christ's cross has sparred me and countless others from here and now.

 

[Der Alte]

The traditional Jewish answer is no more than a year.

SMH And you just read my post where I quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud which said the following,
The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.[/b]
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.

 

[hedrick]

Let's circle back on this. How about a scenario where God inflicts fiery punishment on the unrighteous? What period do you envision, one minute, one hour, one day, one month or some other period?
Then what happens when the punished person is released from the punishment? Does their attitude change? Do they suddenly turn into obedient servants who love God?
I know the logical answer but I have never heard any UR-ist say it.

Let me give a more serious answer. I would suggest that all of the portrayals of hell are symbolic. I doubt that Gehenna is really like a modern prison with fixed sentences, partly because I doubt that eternity has the same kind of linear time we're used to.

I would suggest that the fires of Gehenna are actually our remorse when confronted with the full implications of what we did and failed to do. It's certainly possible that there are people who are so opposed to God's purposes that that kind of confrontation won't work. That's why I've never fully committed to universalism. But I would suggest that for most people, those who in Jewish tradition get out of Gehenna, it's not a matter of serving time but of working through the consequences of this experience.

Jesus used a number of different ways to talk about this. E.g. in Luke we have the following expressions (taken from a handy table in McLaren, "The Last Word..."):

* the house falls
* they lose life
* God could destroy you
* beaten with many blows
* thrown into prison
* cut down (of a tree)
* banished, with weeping and gnashing teeth
* miss the banquet
* miss the party
* sent to Hades
* take mina away from them

Perhaps he did that because no literal description was sufficient. (Matthew's descriptions tend to be harsher.)

 

[Servus]

The traditional Jewish answer is no more than a year.

I've heard that myself. From Jews. But apparently there's a Baptist who knows better.

 

[Fervent]

Restoration and reconciliation can not occur without the cross.



Millions have testimony of many awful things Christ's cross speared them from in this life. And not only speared themselves but often others around them. The substance abusing husband and father who became clean and sober etc. People have been spared from hunger, because Christ's cross transformed me from being a misanthrope into someone willing to help others. I could go on at great length about what Christ's cross has sparred me and countless others from here and now.

This appears as wishy-washy sentimentalism. If you were able to turn yourself around, the cross may have been an instrument but it did not spare you from anything. It was, in fact, your repentance and remonstration that is effective in sparing you from the punishment of your former life. It just happens that the restorative aspect happened in this life, the cross avails nothing.

 

[Fervent]

Let me give a more serious answer. I would suggest that all of the portrayals of hell are symbolic. I doubt that Gehenna is really like a modern prison with fixed sentences, partly because I doubt that eternity has the same kind of linear time we're used to.

I would suggest that the fires of Gehenna are actually our remorse when confronted with the full implications of what we did and failed to do. It's certainly possible that there are people who are so opposed to God's purposes that that kind of confrontation won't work. That's why I've never fully committed to universalism. But I would suggest that for most people, those who in Jewish tradition get out of Gehenna, it's not a matter of serving time but of working through the consequences of this experience.

Jesus used a number of different ways to talk about this. E.g. in Luke we have the following expressions (taken from a handy table in McLaren, "The Last Word..."):

* the house falls
* they lose life
* God could destroy you
* beaten with many blows
* thrown into prison
* cut down (of a tree)
* banished, with weeping and gnashing teeth
* miss the banquet
* miss the party
* sent to Hades
* take mina away from them

Perhaps he did that because no literal description was sufficient. (Matthew's descriptions tend to be harsher.)

The issue is that since you do not commit to universalism your defense of it is hollow. Certainly, restoration is an aim of justice but to remove the retributive aspect of justice is to commit to a justice that is incomplete. The central issue with universalism is not that they hope for the restoration of all, but that they deem God unworthy unless he restores all.

 

[Servus]

This appears as wishy-washy sentimentalism. If you were able to turn yourself around, the cross may have been an instrument but it did not spare you from anything. It was, in fact, your repentance and remonstration that is effective in sparing you from the punishment of your former life. It just happens that the restorative aspect happened in this life, the cross avails nothing.

I don't know if I've ever heard something so contrary to Christian teaching from a Christian. It sounds rather humanistic to me.

 

[Fervent]

I don't know if I've ever heard something so contrary to Christian teaching from a Christian. It sounds rather humanistic to me.

I am not forwarding that as factual, simply the consequence of what you have forwarded. UR renders the cross an optional additive and nothing more. After all, if the claim on salvation does not come exclusively from submission to Christ and His cross then what universal alternative is there? Barn door is open, all comers are valid.

 

[hedrick]

Perhaps he did that because no literal description was sufficient. (Matthew's descriptions tend to be harsher.)

Incidentally, this is my answer to St. Steven. Perhaps we aren't given a clear answer because it isn't possible.

 

[Hmm]

UR renders the cross an optional additive and nothing more.

@MMXX explained it to you just now:

Restoration and reconciliation can not occur without the cross.

Christian universalism is Christocentric. You are continually talking about something else, although I've no idea what.

 

[Fervent]

@MMXX explained it to you just now:



Christian universalist is Christocentric. You are continually talking about something else, although I've no idea what.

I am speaking of natural consequences. Pay homage to the king as you will, but the reality is that the cross in UR is rendered moot. No need to submit to Christ, all are saved by hook or by crook.

 

[Der Alte]

I've heard that myself. From Jews. But apparently there's a Baptist who knows better.

When I first joined this forum, when George HW Bush was president, I was no more knowledgeable about Hell and other things than the average Christian. After getting thoroughly trounced a few times I set about learning. Soon realizing that the same arguments/out-of-context proof texts were endlessly repeated I started saving all my responses and studying every reasonable resource I could find.
I think I have spent $600-$700 or more on sources which are not in public domain. My most recent acquisition was the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible $60 via Logos although it is available free. The digital version has all the appendices and footnotes.
Everything I utilize I think "How can I falsify this?"
If anything I posted about Judaism and their view on "hell," which is used for both "sheol" and "Gehinnom" in the 225 BC LXX, is wrong/out of context not nobody, not no how has shown that to be so.
Simply posting an opposing view does not negate other views.

 

[Hmm]

I am speaking of natural consequences. Pay homage to the king as you will, but the reality is that the cross in UR is rendered moot. No need to submit to Christ, all are saved by hook or by crook.

As I say, that is not the Christian universalist belief.

Perhaps try Wikipedia if you don't accept what anyone says here: Christian universalism - Wikipedia

I'll even quote the first paragraph for you. The emphasis is Wikipedia's:

Christian universalism is a school of Christian theology focused around the doctrine of universal reconciliation – the view that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God. Christian universalism and the belief or hope in the universal reconciliation through Christ can even be understood as synonyms

 

[Fervent]

As I say, that is not the Christian universalist belief.

So you claim, but the assumption that all will eventually submit seems unsubstantiated. So either some are saved despite their own unwillingness, or the entire show is a sham and there is no need for any kind of repentance since all are brought into the fold.

 

[Hmm]

So you claim, but the assumption that all will eventually submit seems unsubstantiated. So either some are saved despite their own unwillingness, or the entire show is a sham and there is no need for any kind of repentance since all are brought into the fold.

I don't know what else I can say to you, sorry.

 

[Der Alte]

As I say, that is not the Christian universalist belief.
Perhaps try Wikipedia if you don't accept what anyone says here: Christian universalism - Wikipedia
I'll even quote the first paragraph for you. The emphasis is Wikipedia's:
Christian universalism is a school of Christian theology focused around the doctrine of universal reconciliation – the view that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God. Christian universalism and the belief or hope in the universal reconciliation through Christ can even be understood as synonyms

You have got to be kidding. Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbling on a public facility wall, right next to "For a good time call "XXX-XXX-XXXX"
Anybody can post, change, add, delete anything, at any time without review. I have done it a few to show skeptics it can be done. I later deleted what I posted.
Wiki might be a good source of reference to primary sources i.e. if a seemingly reliable source is quoted, go look up the quoted source.

 

[hedrick]

You have got to be kidding. Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbling on a public facility wall, right next to "For a good time call "XXX-XXX-XXXX"
Anybody can post, change, add, delete anything, at any time without review. I have done it a few to show skeptics it can be done. I later deleted what I posted.
Wiki might be a good source of reference to primary sources i.e. if a seemingly reliable source is quoted, go look up the quoted source.

I’m not sure what you object to in the Wikipedia definition. Here’s one from a well known universalist site. Christian Universalism: What is it?

 

[Fervent]

I don't know what else I can say to you, sorry.

You might want to try basing your opinions on Scripture instead of wikipedia articles and conjecture.

 

[hedrick]

The issue is that since you do not commit to universalism your defense of it is hollow. Certainly, restoration is an aim of justice but to remove the retributive aspect of justice is to commit to a justice that is incomplete. The central issue with universalism is not that they hope for the restoration of all, but that they deem God unworthy unless he restores all.

My goal isn’t to defend universalism, but to understand the truth. I’m not pushing any one of the three main positions, though I think eternal torment is unlikely. Aside from the moral question (which is really a question of consistency with Jesus’ description of God), it rejects the vision of all being one in 1 Cor 15, and the new Jerusalem at the end of the Revelation.