Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[ozso]

I'm finding it hard to envisage a scenario where an everlasting punitive punishment would be in our own best interests. Care to give an example of that?

I think he's talking about the UR version of a cleansing restorative punishment.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm finding it hard to envisage a scenario where an everlasting punitive punishment would be in our own best interests. Care to give an example of that?

Let's circle back on this. How about a scenario where God inflicts fiery punishment on the unrighteous? What period do you envision, one minute, one hour, one day, one month or some other period?
Then what happens when the punished person is released from the punishment? Does their attitude change? Do they suddenly turn into obedient servants who love God?
I know the logical answer but I have never heard any UR-ist say it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

But for the fact the only version he ever promoted was the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. Which OBTW pwns the UR narrative.

Just to be clear, I never promoted the EGOB, don't own a copy and never read it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Let's circle back on this. How about a scenario where God inflicts fiery punishment on the unrighteous? What period do you envision, one minute, one hour, one day, one month or some other period?
Then what happens when the punished person is released from the punishment? Does their attitude change? Do they suddenly turn into obedient servants who love God?
I know the logical answer but I have never heard any UR-ist say it.

You have yet to see God as a Refiner of men. His Fire is transformative, as I have demonstrated on this thread, burning off the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble...to reveal the silver and gold within us. The church, on the other hand, uses the thread of "hell" to fill pews and separate us from our silver and gold.

 

[Fervent]

One would think being freed from sin and the law being fulfilled here on earth alone would be enough. It's not like everything the apostles (especially Paul) wrote about what Jesus did for us only addresses the afterlife.

Certainly it addresses more than just the afterlife, but the central message of Christ crucified is that atonement has been made and the punitive portion of justice fulfilled in Christ's taking the penalty of sin for those who become baptized into His death. The cross becomes a moot point if it doesn't deliver us from anything, and if UR is accepted than what it is delivering us from is a punishment that is purely restorative.

I'm finding it hard to envisage a scenario where an everlasting punitive punishment would be in our own best interests. Care to give an example of that?

I don't mean to be insulting, but do you have a reading comprehension issue? The objection was to what follows if the premises of UR is accepted and Christ's cross is sparing the punishment. Under UR it either doesn't spare us from anything at all, or what it spares those who accept it in this life from is a punishment that's end is restoration meaning the disciplinary/instructive aspect of the punishment is lost for those who accept the cross. It becomes an entirely moot action.

 

[Der Alte]

Just to be clear, I never promoted the EGOB, don't own a copy and never read it.

The guy the put down was aimed at, NOT you, has only promoted the EOB.

 

[Hmm]

I don't mean to be insulting, but do you have a reading comprehension issue?

Well, let's see if I have the reading skills to understand the rest of your post.

The objection was to what follows if the premises of UR is accepted and Christ's cross is sparing the punishment. Under UR it either doesn't spare us from anything at all, or what it spares those who accept it in this life from is a punishment that's end is restoration meaning the disciplinary/instructive aspect of the punishment is lost for those who accept the cross. It becomes an entirely moot action.

No, that passed me by I'm afraid. Could you include a diagram of it or something that might help me understand?

 

[Fervent]

Well, let's see if I have the reading skills to understand the rest of your post.



No, that passed me by I'm afraid. Could you include a diagram of it or something that might help me understand?

Careful, @MMXX may accuse you of "snark" when clearly you are using "humor."

 

[Hmm]

Careful, @MMXX may accuse you of "snark" when clearly you are using "humor."

Nope. I honestly could not understand your post.

 

[Der Alte]

You have yet to see God as a Refiner of men.

You have no clue what I see/don't see. I have acknowledged that before. I'm waiting to see that vs., 2 or more would be better, where God does that refining after death in the grave where there is; no work, John 9:4, Ecclesiastes 9:10; no hope, Ephesians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13.

His Fire is transformative, as I have demonstrated on this thread, burning off the dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble...to reveal the silver and gold within us.

Israel is the dross that is burned off and left.

Ezekiel 22:18-20
18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.​

For your edification "tares" are weeds separate from the wheat therefore it cannot refer to sin. Tares would be the sinners among the righteous.

The church, on the other hand, uses the thread of "hell" to fill pews and separate us from our silver and gold.

Putrefying rubbish. Have you ever heard a sermon or read any explanation anywhere where hell was mentioned in a way to frighten someone into being a Christian? I know I never have. The only sermon I know of about hell I preached in '95. "Lessons from Hell University."

 

[Fervent]

Nope. I honestly could not understand your post.

I wasn't stating my position, but holding up the consequence of UR. If UR is true, then all punishment is restorative. So the only thing the cross could spare us from is punishment intended to restore us.

 

[Saint Steven]

Funny? I chose "Hell is a 404" as the title of my book.

Sorry, I meant no offense, friend.
Hell = File not found
(honestly, that cracks me up) 1,000 apologies.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Sorry, I meant no offense, friend.
Hell = File not found
(honestly, that cracks me up) 1,000 apologies.

No problem, Steven.

 

[ozso]

Careful, @MMXX may accuse you of "snark" when clearly you are using "humor."

If snark, then in this case snark directed at being talked down to. You have a pretty clearly established pattern of being esoteric and obscure, and then when of course people can't figure it out, you suggest that's because they have some deficiency like a "reading comprehension issue" etc.

 

[Fervent]

If snark, then in this case snark directed at being talked down to. You have a pretty clearly established pattern of being esoteric and obscure, and then when of course people can't figure it out, you suggest that's because they have some deficiency like a "reading comprehension issue" etc.

Any excuse for hypocrasy, I suppose.

 

[hedrick]

<quote=Hedrick>That’s not entirely fair. The word Gehenna does appear, though normally in contexts involving hyperbole or hypotheticals. Just what its implications are is not clear because ideas varied. But it was often, maybe even normally, considered to be eternal. It’s just that people weren’t necessarily thought to stay there eternally. From the citations I’ve seen of the Talmud, it looks like views about it got harsher over time among Jews. Probably the same happened among Christians. Why? I don’t know, but I suspect religious conflict and persecution might be involved. It’s easy to think your enemies deserve to have bad things happen to them. It’s not an impulse Jesus approved of, but it’s easy to understand.
My best source is "Hell and its Rivals" by Alan Bernstein. He makes a case that Christian developments were part of a general development in ideas about the afterlife, occurring throughout the region in all religions. Much of the development had already occurred by the 1st Cent, but it continued.</quote>

My best source for the beliefs of the Jews are the; Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
¢¢…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs, practices etc. of the ancient Jews,
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been refuted and I am convinced cannot be refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in this post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

[Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

Yes. The general impression, which we see in your quotes, is that a few very good went directly to the world to come, a few very wicked to Gehenna permanently and normal Jews to Gehenna temporarily.

I haven't found a good detailed history, but my impression from Bernstein's account is that the original maxim was that all Israel has a portion in the world to come, which would imply that all Jews get out of Gehenna, but exceptions kept getting added.

These descriptions of suffering make hell a reasonable translation, as I said. My caveat is that it seemed to be common that many people would get out. That's not something that the term "hell" normally implies.

The varying list of exceptions make it unclear whether Jesus was talking about Gehenna as temporary punishment except for a few determined enemies, or something more like what we think of as hell.

Because of his particular emphasis on God's forgiveness, I'd assume he was using Gehenna as a way to talk about accountability, and not eternal punishment (at least in most cases).

 

[ozso]

I wasn't stating my position, but holding up the consequence of UR. If UR is true, then all punishment is restorative. So the only thing the cross could spare us from is punishment intended to restore us.

The thing the cross spared us from is being separated from God due to sin caused by Adam through Satan. The purpose of the cross was to right that which went wrong.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Romans 5:15

 

[ozso]

Any excuse for hypocrasy, I suppose.

So reading comprehension issues plus hypocrisy. What other accusations have you?

 

[Fervent]

The thing the cross spared us from is being separated from God due to sin caused by Adam through Satan. The purpose of the cross was to right that which went wrong.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Romans 5:15

Except in UR recollection the punishment due is restorative, so the cross is of no effect. So Christ's cross spares those who confess Christ in this life nothing.

 

[hedrick]

Let's circle back on this. How about a scenario where God inflicts fiery punishment on the unrighteous? What period do you envision, one minute, one hour, one day, one month or some other period?
Then what happens when the punished person is released from the punishment? Does their attitude change? Do they suddenly turn into obedient servants who love God?
I know the logical answer but I have never heard any UR-ist say it.

The traditional Jewish answer is no more than a year.