Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

[Parmallia]

Using your drug example, while true whites do sell drugs more often than blacks but get arrested less often, the reason is because in many black neighborhoods there is a culture of selling drugs in the open or even on street corners where it is easy for the cops to catch them; and whites have a culture of selling their drugs in private homes to people they know making it more difficult for the cops to catch them. This is not an example of racism, it’s an example of different cultures resulting in different results.
Blacks Less Likely To Sell Drugs, Much More Likely To Be Arrested For It: Study

Unfortunately studies of the outcomes AFTER ARREST show a similar bias for white offenders. Black offenders will usually have a higher rate of conviction and a harsher sentence than the white offender.

So it doesn't matter if they were slangin' on a street corner or in mommy and daddy's den, once arrested it is still systemically racist against the black offenders.

 

[Estrid]

The disparities tend to dwindle similarly to the situation of the "gender wage gap" when the case-by-case details are examined. Case-by-case it usually turns out that the cases are not the same, and the differences are not systemic but individualistic.

Exactly. Which is an example of why citing unnamed " studies" and vague
" findings" like " worsee ourcomes" is good if one wants to be inflammatory
with little regard to the actual situation or realistic policy change proposals.

 

[Parmallia]

The disparities tend to dwindle similarly to the situation of the "gender wage gap" when the case-by-case details are examined.

I didn't see your reference on this. But given that you must prefer anecdotal data I'll just go ahead and put it out there that as a professional R&D scientist I tend to give more credence and weight to actual statistical data.

Case-by-case it usually turns out that the cases are not the same, and the differences are not systemic but individualistic.

Again, I didn't see your reference.

 

[Estrid]

Unfortunately studies of the outcomes AFTER ARREST show a similar bias for white offenders. Black offenders will usually have a higher rate of conviction and a harsher sentence than the white offender.

So it doesn't matter if they were slangin' on a street corner or in mommy and daddy's den, once arrested it is still systemically racist against the black offenders.

"Studies "

 

[Parmallia]

Exactly. Which is an example of why citing unnamed " studies" and vague
" findings" like " worsee ourcomes" is good if one wants to be inflammatory
with little regard to the actual situation or realistic policy change proposals.

...and why people who lack even basic science skills or analytical skills can't read studies and why they say incredibly inane things.

 

[Parmallia]

"Studies "

I provided links, Estrid. You CAN read, correct?

Maybe my problem is that I've spent the last 25-30 years as a professional research scientist. I've written studies for publication, I've analyzed data, I've run the statistics on my results.

I'm always going to prefer actual studies to whatever it is you lot like to rely on for understanding anything.

 

[Estrid]

...and why people who lack even basic science skills or analytical skills can't read studies and why they say incredibly inane things.

Why yes, that is exactly my observation.

 

[RDKirk]

/

 

[SilverBear]

Using your drug example, while true whites do sell drugs more often than blacks but get arrested less often, the reason is because in many black neighborhoods there is a culture of selling drugs in the open or even on street corners where it is easy for the cops to catch them; and whites have a culture of selling their drugs in private homes to people they know making it more difficult for the cops to catch them. This is not an example of racism, it’s an example of different cultures resulting in different results.
Blacks Less Likely To Sell Drugs, Much More Likely To Be Arrested For It: Study

however following the arrest black individuals had almost twice the number of sentences resulting in incarceration than whites and significantly longer sentences than whites with an average sentence being 12 months longer for black offenders.
Comparing Black and White Drug Offenders: Implications for Racial Disparities in Criminal Justice and Reentry Policy and Programming Alana Rosenberg. J of Drug Use Dec 2017

 

[RDKirk]

Unfortunately studies of the outcomes AFTER ARREST show a similar bias for white offenders. Black offenders will usually have a higher rate of conviction and a harsher sentence than the white offender.

So it doesn't matter if they were slangin' on a street corner or in mommy and daddy's den, once arrested it is still systemically racist against the black offenders.

What is specifically systemic in how that happens?

What specific changes in the law would you make to prevent that from happening?

Statistics are valuable in providing flags indicating a problem may be occurring, but they say nothing about what the actual problem is...much less how to remedy it.

Ultimately, a law must be written to address the specific issues that would correct the problem. What are the details? How would you change the system with a law that would address the problem.

 

[Parmallia]

Why yes, that is exactly my observation.

You might do well to learn some science. It comes in quite handy.

 

[RDKirk]

Unfortunately studies of the outcomes AFTER ARREST show a similar bias for white offenders. Black offenders will usually have a higher rate of conviction and a harsher sentence than the white offender.

So it doesn't matter if they were slangin' on a street corner or in mommy and daddy's den, once arrested it is still systemically racist against the black offenders.

I think there is a difference here in the definition of "systemic."

 

[Parmallia]

What is specifically systemic in how that happens?

The fact that a statistical signal shows up across a large number of analyses indicates there is something systemic.

What specific changes in the law would you make to prevent that from happening?

Perhaps a restructuring of the limits of prosecutorial options. For example, right now a prosecutor can layer charges as a means of threatening a defendant into pleading to a charge. Often these layered charges are made up of additional charges which the prosecutor has ZERO chance of getting to stick but they can present them to the defendant as if they are a certainty and will MASSIVELY increase their prison time if convicted. Given that poor people (often black) will have less access to a good defense this is why so many plea deals are struck without a trial.

Also there are things that can be done about sentencing guidelines.

There are a large number of things that can be done mechanistically in the justice system. And that's just the justice system itself.

 

[Estrid]

I provided links, Estrid. You CAN read, correct?

Maybe my problem is that I've spent the last 25-30 years as a professional research scientist. I've written studies for publication, I've analyzed data, I've run the statistics on my results.

I'm always going to prefer actual studies to whatever it is you lot like to rely on for understanding anything.

Terrif.

Did you analyze blm statements for a quote such as i asked for?

You may be right in all you say. For some reason you take
my asking for details as being hostile.
My racial group has faced plenty of persecution and bias in the USA,
and it hasnt stopped.
What Ive seen so far is refusal to answer, personal remarks,
and vague generalizations citing unreferenced studies.

Id be happy enough to be presented with clear data about
racial issues in the USA, even though its not my prob.

Seems mostly there"s posturing and finger pointing.

 

[Parmallia]

I think there is a difference here in the definition of "systemic."

I tend to look at something as systemic if it shows up across the systems being studied. If a signal shows up in the data that cuts across the entire system and is repeatable then it shows there is something "systemic" to the issue.

It does not mean that the SYSTEM IS INHERENTLY RACIST, just that there is racism that is happening within the system. In the case of justice system inequalities it may be as simple as racist prosecutorial behavior. DA's have a lot of wiggle room in how they can run a prosecution. All things quite legal, just possibly abused for racist ends.

 

[RDKirk]

The fact that a statistical signal shows up across a large number of analyses indicates there is something systemic.



Perhaps a restructuring of the limits of prosecutorial options. For example, right now a prosecutor can layer charges as a means of threatening a defendant into pleading to a charge. Often these layered charges are made up of additional charges which the prosecutor has ZERO chance of getting to stick but they can present them to the defendant as if they are a certainty and will MASSIVELY increase their prison time if convicted. Given that poor people (often black) will have less access to a good defense this is why so many plea deals are struck without a trial.

Also there are things that can be done about sentencing guidelines.

There are a large number of things that can be done mechanistically in the justice system. And that's just the justice system itself.

But that's not racial. That's class. Characterizing it as racial muddies the real issue and loses political allies that could be gained.

If you want to say it's racial, you have to filter the statistics for income levels and see if poor whites fair statistically better than blacks high income levels.

 

[Estrid]

But that's not racial. That's class. Characterizing it as racial muddies the real issue and loses political allies that could be gained.

If you want to say it's racial, you have to filter the statistics for income levels and see if poor whites fair statistically better than blacks high income levels.

" learn some science "

 

[Parmallia]

But that's not racial. That's class.

And in America that is a great proxy. The median household income for a black family in the USA is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN FOR A WHITE FAMILY.

So, yeah, class factors in. But interestingly enough class is also quite well correlated with race in America.

That's systemic.

If you want to say it's racial, you have to filter the statistics for income levels and see if poor whites fair statistically better than blacks high income levels.

That's a fair critique to some extent. I'm sure there may be studies to that effect, which I may take some time to try to track down in they exist. But as noted earlier it is a very well done system. When you take a system in which PERSONAL WEALTH is heavily correlated with race and then make your justice system one in which wealth consistently purchases better outcomes you are still stuck with a racist system. In fact a much more powerful system of racism than just prosecutorial and judge-related overreachs alone!

But it isn't just there! In schools white kids get disciplined much less severely than black kids. And that isn't a matter of who can afford the best defender.

Racial disparities in school-based disciplinary actions are associated with county-level rates of racial bias

It is REALLY HARD not to see the race component in our society.

 

[Estrid]

Alert! There is systemic racism in America
But Surprise!
It favours Asians!

 

[eleos1954]

If so, how does it exist?

sure .... racism comes from identifying people groups and then treating them different in one way or another. Both governments and religions do this ... some worse than others.

evidentially it is impossible for mankind to proceed with there is one race .... the human race .... if the world was able to get to that .... then there would be no racism.

round and round we go ....