Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Ceallaigh]

The idea itself is not upsetting, it is the distortion to Biblical texts(as well as texts of early Christian authors) that is done in order to maintain it that is at issue. The case is essentially a matter of proof texts which never address the context the quotes are found within. All of the "UR" texts rely on looking at the quotes just right, with a squint, and completely ignoring the intended audience and issue at hand with the books they are found in.

I've found that to be the case with ET proof texts as well. And ironically in some cases both the ET supporters and the UR supporters use the same proof texts to support their position. So perhaps that means they're both right and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I think what should mainly be taken into consideration is, what is the most likely outcome based on God's overall plan of restoration throughout the entire Bible?

 

[Fervent]

I've found that to be the case with ET proof texts as well. And ironically in some cases both the ET folks and the UR folks use the same proof texts to support their position. So perhaps that means they're both right and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I think what should mainly be taken into consideration is, what is the most likely outcome based on God's overall plan of restoration throughout the entire Bible?

First, I haven't seen this to be the case with either an eternal torment or an annihilationist bent. The issue with UR texts is most of the ones that are commonly bandied around have absolutely zero indication within the text itself that there is any intent to teach on afterlife issues. Where afterlife is in view there is a consistent motif of judgment with there being two very distinct groups going to two different fates.

As for "God's overall plan of restoration" that seems to beg the question entirely, as it is in the details that we learn of God's plan not beginning with what we think that plan is and then finding the support to fit our original idea. Which is exactly where I take issue because those who defend UR begin with it and then use Biblical texts to prop it up rather than investigating the Biblical texts to find where the Bible intends to teach on the afterlife and what those texts say so that we may know what God's plan is.

 

[Hmm]

First, I haven't seen this to be the case with either an eternal torment or an annihilationist bent. The issue with UR texts is most of the ones that are commonly bandied around have absolutely zero indication within the text itself that there is any intent to teach on afterlife issues. Where afterlife is in view there is a consistent motif of judgment with there being two very distinct groups going to two different fates.

As for "God's overall plan of restoration" that seems to beg the question entirely, as it is in the details that we learn of God's plan not beginning with what we think that plan is and then finding the support to fit our original idea. Which is exactly where I take issue because those who defend UR begin with it and then use Biblical texts to prop it up rather than investigating the Biblical texts to find where the Bible intends to teach on the afterlife and what those texts say so that we may know what God's plan is.

Tell us then, does God have a plan, and if so, what is it?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Sorry amigo I don't consider word studies with online "experts." How does your "word study" change what I posted?

More misdirection. The word study I mentioned was carried out by ME in a KJV using a Strong's Concordance to find words relating to "fire." I don't care to look back to see how it changes anything you posted, especially when you call it a "word study" with quotation marks as if you don't think it is genuine.

 

[Ceallaigh]

First, I haven't seen this to be the case with either an eternal torment or an annihilationist bent. The issue with UR texts is most of the ones that are commonly bandied around have absolutely zero indication within the text itself that there is any intent to teach on afterlife issues. Where afterlife is in view there is a consistent motif of judgment with there being two very distinct groups going to two different fates.

As for "God's overall plan of restoration" that seems to beg the question entirely, as it is in the details that we learn of God's plan not beginning with what we think that plan is and then finding the support to fit our original idea. Which is exactly where I take issue because those who defend UR begin with it and then use Biblical texts to prop it up rather than investigating the Biblical texts to find where the Bible intends to teach on the afterlife and what those texts say so that we may know what God's plan is.

I have found that to also be the issue with the ET bent though. In regard to several main proof texts used to support ET, I don't see where the text or the overall passage which the text is taken from, is necessarily about the afterlife and especially about eternal torment.

Again I have found what you're saying about those who defend UR also being the case with those who defend ET. What I see the situation being is that most/all Christians get taught the ET scenario from the get go. They're told ahead of time how the Bible should be interpreted regarding ET. From what I've seen UR doesn't start out as a preconceived idea that Christians then try building case for through scripture, but rather they start seeing problems with the ET scenario they were taught and in many cases believed.

Personally I started going to church / sunday school when I was 6 years old back around 1968. And I didn't become aware of the doctrine of universal reconciliation until around 40 years later in 2008. And that was only because I heard the term "universal salvation" motioned in a secular movie. Which caused me to look it up, which then took me to the universalist website tentmaker.org. What I learned about UR there was enough to at least make make me say "hmm". And that's probably because I wasn't taught that it was a lie I must reject ahead of time.

 

[Hmm]

From what I've seen UR doesn't start out as a preconceived idea that Christians then try building case for through scripture, but rather they start seeing problems with the ET scenario they were taught and in many cases believed.

Yes, that is what you commonly find you in personal testimonies. I don't think anyone gets out of the powerful grip of ECT by being shown a couple of proof texts.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, it's such a simple truth and it explains all of Scripture. If it's denied, nothing really makes sense.

Right.
It brings completion to the end of the story of this creation and of humankind. The OTHER "plan" leaves so much unresolved, thus creating an eternity of chaos with an untrustworthy and trigger-happy god. One person's hell is another person's heaven, I guess.

 

[Andrewn]

Why is the idea of everything/everyone being restored by God to His original design and plan, so upsetting?

Because, for most people, it is very important to be better than other by elevating themselves and putting others down. This is base human nature.

 

[Andrewn]

I traced "hell" back to Norse mythology, where it was "Helheim" or "House of Hel," as they supposed Hel to be the goddes or ogress of her House. Now, centuries later, we have added one "l" and make it Christian orthodoxy.

Hel = pagan

Hell = Christian

I agree but I don't think this argument helps your case. Hell comes from Norse mythology just as the NT "Hades" comes from Greek mythology!

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, that is what you commonly find you in personal testimonies. I don't think anyone gets out of the powerful grip of ECT by being shown a couple of proof texts.​

Yes, ECT is very pervasive, even in secular society. It is woven into our speech, literature and arts.

"That hurt like hell."
"What the hell are you doing?"
"Come hell, or high water."
"Damn it!"
"What the blazes is that?"

 

[Saint Steven]

I agree but I don't think this argument helps your case. Hell comes from Norse mythology just as the NT "Hades" comes from Greek mythology!

Which points to some translation issues.
The phrase "realm of the dead" appears 29 times in the NIV translation. All but two references are from the OT. The two in the NT are both found in the 2nd chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.

 

[Hmm]

Because, for most people, it is very important to be better than other by elevating themselves and putting others down. This is base human nature.

Absolutely. You may enjoy this expression of this basic truth here

You may recognise a young John Cleese. The other two people later formed the comedy duo The Two Ronnies. If you'd like to see an example of British humour at its best, look up their sketch "Four Candles".

 

[Hmm]

Yes, ECT is very pervasive, even in secular society. It is woven into our speech, literature and arts.

"That hurt like hell."
"What the hell are you doing?"
"Come hell, or high water."
"Damn it!"
"What the blazes is that?"

That's a very interesting observation. It all goes towards reifying the idea of a pointlessly punishing hell.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's a very interesting observation. It all goes towards reifying the idea of a pointlessly punishing hell.

Right. The concept of heaven/hell is all around us every day. I think I hear/read some reference to it on a daily basis. (off the forum) Even unbelievers readily understand the concept, whether they ascribe to it, or not.

And as we have read on this topic, it has even led to a named phobia concerning "the fear of hell", present in some of those who have accepted it and believe it is real. Tragic, really.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I agree but I don't think this argument helps your case. Hell comes from Norse mythology just as the NT "Hades" comes from Greek mythology!

Not only do we have hel from Norse mythology, we have related words:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Middle Dutch – helle

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

Original Teutonic – halja

and Greek - Hades

Do you sense a connection? Just so you know, I derived the above from the Oxford English dictionary. The Old English "hel" probably came from Old Norse, as the OED lists it's first use at about 850 AD, a time when many Norse loan-words were coming in over the North Sea.

 

[Hmm]

Right. The concept of heaven/hell is all around us every day. I think I hear/read some reference to it on a daily basis. (off the forum) Even unbelievers readily understand the concept, whether they ascribe to it, or not.

And as we have read on this topic, it has even led to a named phobia concerning "the fear of hell", present in some of those who have accepted it and believe it is real. Tragic, really.

Yes, we think in words.and without them it would be very difficult to construct a line of reasoning. The fact that the word "hell" exists and it has a commonly accepted meaning (although as @Lazarus Short has recently shown, this common understanding is a misconception and that "hell" is not a biblical word) means that most people unconsciously assume that there is a reality behind the meaning. But of course this is not always true, as with "hell" in the sense of ECT and as with Father Christmas, pixies and exciting cricket.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right. The concept of heaven/hell is all around us every day. I think I hear/read some reference to it on a daily basis. (off the forum) Even unbelievers readily understand the concept, whether they ascribe to it, or not.

And as we have read on this topic, it has even led to a named phobia concerning "the fear of hell", present in some of those who have accepted it and believe it is real. Tragic, really.

The Bible tells us that perfect love drives out fear. (because fear has to do with punishment) Could it be any clearer?

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[Saint Steven]

... Father Christmas, pixies and exciting cricket.

Oh, my. The term "exciting cricket" is a new one for me. What does it mean? Sounds like a thrilling sporting event. (probably not)

 

[Andrewn]

Yes, ECT is very pervasive, even in secular society. It is woven into our speech, literature and arts.

"That hurt like hell."
"What the hell are you doing?"
"Come hell, or high water."
"Damn it!"
"What the blazes is that?"

Excellent examples.

The word "hades" in the Bible refers to a "spirit prison" as stated in 1Pe 3:19. This is not the modern meaning of the word "hell." The 2 concepts might have been equivalent in Norse mythology and when KJV was translated. But they no longer mean the same thing and should not be used interchangeably. You gave good examples of the modern usage of "hell."

 

[Ceallaigh]

I agree but I don't think this argument helps your case. Hell comes from Norse mythology just as the NT "Hades" comes from Greek mythology!

"Hades" appears 11 times in the NT. The Aramaic Bible in Plain English translates them all as "Sheol".

I find it unlikely that when Jesus was speaking he suddenly went from Aramaic to Greek and said "Hades" instead of "Sheol" in Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:15 and Luke 16:23.

"Hades" appears twice in Acts of the Apostles 2:27 and Acts of the Apostles 2:31, but that's Peter quoting Psalms 16:8-11 so that's definitely "Sheol".

"Hades" appears in 1 Corinthians 15:55 but many translations say "death". The KJB says "grave".

"Hades" appears in Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8 and Revelation 20:13-14. And in all of those it appears alongside "death" so it seems likely those should all be "Sheol" as well.

Therefore I'm going to conclude that neither "Hell" nor "Hades" belongs anywhere in the Bible.