Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Ceallaigh]

But you also believe that Hell and Eternal Torment are facetious!

That doesn't make any sense to me. What do you think facetious means?

What is the defining point between reality and fiction for you?????

You still seem to be having a really hard time understanding that knowing about something and explaining it, isn't the same thing as believing in it.

 

[Ceallaigh]

It would be great if an ex-universalist joined this conversation to refute universalism, because that person wouldn't be making all the mistakes I see being made. Like trying to refute universalism by using universalism proof texts.

 

[Hmm]

You still seem to be having a really hard time understanding that knowing about something and explaining it, isn't the same thing as believing in it.

Critical thinking is somewhat of a lost art it seems

 

[Der Alte]

* * * “He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver;
he will purify … and refine them like gold and silver.”
(Malachi 3:3) * * *

Well that vs. certainly seems to suggest Universal Reconciliation. But let us add a little context.
A text book example of quoting scripture out-of-context.

Malachi 3:3
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Malachi 3:5
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:17-18
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Malachi 4:1-2
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.​

Note the distinction between those highlighted in vss. 3:5, 3:18 and 4:1 "but unto you that fear my name." The ones highlighted do NOT receive what those who fear His name receive.

 

[Saint Steven]

I am saying that your grasp of their meaning is flawed.

That is an insulting and demeaning opinion.
Why do you suppose YOUR opinion is superior to anyone else's?

 

[Saint Steven]

He goes on to say............"If Satan was once a good spiritual person who was later corrupted then the logic of my position is indeed that God could and would redeem him."

I don't have a problem with that, do you?
How would you benefit if Satan was not restored?
Remember, revenge is a sin. (Romans 12:19)

 

[Lazarus Short]

But you also believe that Hell and Eternal Torment are facetious!

What is the defining point between reality and fiction for you?????

Is that a joke? I traced "hell" back to Norse mythology, where it was "Helheim" or "House of Hel," as they supposed Hel to be the goddes or ogress of her House. Now, centuries later, we have added one "l" and make it Christian orthodoxy.

Hel = pagan

Hell = Christian

I checked it out, and failed to find the "Christian hell" - what's not to like?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Well that vs. certainly seems to suggest Universal Reconciliation. But let us add a little context.
A text book example of quoting scripture out-of-context.

Malachi 3:3
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Malachi 3:5
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:17-18
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Malachi 4:1-2
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.​

Note the distinction between those highlighted in vss. 3:5, 3:18 and 4:1 "but unto you that fear my name." The ones highlighted do NOT receive what those who fear His name receive.

You must have missed the implication of Malachi 4:1-2, that burning (and "burning" was one of words involved in that word study I did on "fire" and related words), is part of His refining of us, righteous and not-so-righteous. Godfire and the Lake of Fire are tools in His salvation of us.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

don't have a problem with that, do you?
How would you benefit if Satan was not restored?
Remember, revenge is a sin. (Romans 12:19)

Will God take vengeance against His enemies as this vs. clearly states?

 

[Der Alte]

You must have missed the implication of Malachi 4:1-2, that burning (and "burning" was one of words involved in that word study I did on "fire" and related words), is part of His refining of us, righteous and not-so-righteous. Godfire and the Lake of Fire are tools in His salvation of us.

Sorry amigo I don't consider word studies with online "experts." How does your "word study" change what I posted?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sorry amigo I don't consider word studies with online "experts."

Don't you mean online "experts" other than yourself?

 

[Ceallaigh]

The Book, "The Evangelical Universalist" by Gregory MacDonald, says that ...
"the logic of the arguments that I employ in chapter 1 of my book would entail a more radical conclusion - that God will redeem all fallen creatures, both human and angelic. Let's call this 'radical universalism'.

He goes on to say............"If Satan was once a good spiritual person who was later corrupted then the logic of my position is indeed that God could and would redeem him."

"The only way that I can think to get out of this bind is to suggest that Lucifer (the good being created by God) will be saved ...."!

And THAT is where your logic is headed!!!!

Why is the idea of everything/everyone being restored by God to His original design and plan, so upsetting?

 

[Der Alte]

Is that a joke? I traced "hell" back to Norse mythology, where it was "Helheim" or "House of Hel," as they supposed Hel to be the goddes or ogress of her House. Now, centuries later, we have added one "l" and make it Christian orthodoxy.
Hel = pagan
Hell = Christian
I checked it out, and failed to find the "Christian hell" - what's not to like?

Ho hum. Not really relevant to anything. What a word might have meant in another language, on another continent, more than 2-3 centuries ago is not worth mentioning. Even in English old meanings to words are often irrelevant. For instance, the word "truck" usually means a large boxy vehicle used for transporting large, heavy loads. Originally it meant "vegetables." Then it came to mean the vehicle vegetables were carried in. It also has meant "to have dealings with." e.g. "I don't have any truck with those people."
In German the word "hell" means bright. Note in the Jewish Encyclopedia "hell" is used to refer to the place of fiery, eternal punishment. And FYI none of the references in the the Bible to "Gehenna" refer to the actual valley of Gehinnom. There was never a constantly burning dump in the valley of Ge hinnom/Gehenna. The only such dump near Jerusalem was the Kidron valley. Backed up with archaeological evidence.
But no matter how many times actual evidence is provided it is ignored and the Gehenna constantly burning dump lie is repeatedly posted.

 

[Hmm]

Will God take vengeance against His enemies as this vs. clearly states?

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?"

 

[Hmm]

Why is the idea of everything/everyone being restored by God to His original design and plan, so upsetting?

That is the question. I wish someone from Team Hell would tell us.

 

[Fervent]

You must have missed the implication of Malachi 4:1-2, that burning (and "burning" was one of words involved in that word study I did on "fire" and related words), is part of His refining of us, righteous and not-so-righteous. Godfire and the Lake of Fire are tools in His salvation of us.

In that verse the word to do a word study on would be "קַ֔שׁ" as that is how the wicked will endure the fire. No where does it indicate that they will be refined like precious metal, instead they will be consumed like straw.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Ho hum. Not really relevant to anything. What a word might have meant in another language, on another continent, more than 2-3 centuries ago is not worth mentioning. Even in English old meanings to words are often irrelevant. For instance, the word "truck" usually means a large boxy vehicle used for transporting large, heavy loads. Originally it meant "vegetables." Then it came to mean the vehicle vegetables were carried in. It also has meant "to have dealings with." e.g. "I don't have any truck with those people."
In German the word "hell" means bright. Note in the Jewish Encyclopedia "hell" is used to refer to the place of fiery, eternal punishment. And FYI none of the references in the the Bible to "Gehenna" refer to the actual valley of Gehinnom. There was never a constantly burning dump in the valley of Ge hinnom/Gehenna. The only such dump near Jerusalem was the Kidron valley. Backed up with archaeological evidence.
But no matter how many times actual evidence is provided it is ignored and the Gehenna constantly burning dump lie is repeatedly posted.

The Jewish Encyclopedia says:

"The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem."

That correctly states the significance and context of what Jesus was referring to when He said Gehenna.

The Jewish Encyclopedia also says:

"… the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell"."

And that's where there's a problem, because it confuses the significance and context of Gehenna with the place from Norse mythology. It's like calling Jerusalem Asgard and Heaven Valhalla. And calling both Sheol and Gehenna Hell makes them sound like the same place, which is deceptive.

 

[Fervent]

Why is the idea of everything/everyone being restored by God to His original design and plan, so upsetting?

The idea itself is not upsetting, it is the distortion to Biblical texts(as well as texts of early Christian authors) that is done in order to maintain it that is at issue. The case is essentially a matter of proof texts which never address the context the quotes are found within. All of the "UR" texts rely on looking at the quotes just right, with a squint, and completely ignoring the intended audience and issue at hand with the books they are found in.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That is the question. I wish someone from Team Hell would tell us.

They seem to forget or don't understand that the foundation of Christian universalism is the idea of God restoring everything to His original purpose, plan, design and desire.

 

[Hmm]

They seem to forget or don't understand that the foundation of Christian universalism is the idea of God restoring everything to His original purpose, plan, design and desire.

Yes, it's such a simple truth and it explains all of Scripture. If it's denied, nothing really makes sense.