Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[tall73]

Blood is offered up on the altar of sacrifice - which is done once for all

The blood ministration of the inauguration and the Day of Atonement went into the sanctuary, not just at the altar.

Heb 7:
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,

Agreed! He offered one sacrifice. But that was not just for the sin offerings. He also offered the blood for the inauguration, the covenant, the dedication of priests, red heifer, the sacrifices of the feast of booths, of the Passover, etc. All of it was done at once. But He also ministered it in heaven. Hence,

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

This blood ministration in heaven, involving the entry, secured eternal redemption. It was not just what happened on the cross.

And the entry, by means of blood, was once for all.

But then He goes to heaven - starts up the sanctuary service - and begins the holy place ministry where the blood is being claimed for forgiveness of sins being confessed which results in cleansing the conscience as Heb 9 and 10 point out - for the confessing those sins.

The entry with blood was necessary to obtain eternal redemption, per 9:11-12.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

And yes, people now confess their sins and avail themselves of that blood work in real time.

No it refers to the sinner who is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest - which is the daily service.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Incorrect Bob. The context is entry and going to Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary where He already went. Priests were the ones who go to the sanctuary. And we are dedicated as priests in order to draw near. Hence the washing and the sprinkling, directly from the dedication of priests.

But the blood provision for the dedication also already happened.

1 John 1:2
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Agreed completely. He forgives when we confess. But the blood work is already done. And that is what was referenced.

And that is also what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the day of atonement. He entered, by means of blood, and presented blood before God.

There is only one entry, and it was by means of blood, compared to the earthly blood of goats. Goat blood only went in for the inauguration and the Day of Atonement. But in this case it was both, because the entry was once for all.

 

[BobRyan]

Blood is offered up on the altar of sacrifice - which is done once for all

Heb 7:
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,

But then He goes to heaven - starts up the sanctuary service - and begins the holy place ministry where the blood is being claimed for forgiveness of sins being confessed which results in cleansing the conscience as Heb 9 and 10 point out - for the confessing those sins.

The washing and sprinkling refers to the daily service where the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest in the sanctuary - which is the daily service.

Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

1 John 1:2
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The blood ministration of the inauguration and the Day of Atonement went into the sanctuary, not just at the altar.

The reference to "offered up" shows that the blood sacrifice is offered on the altar - a once for all event. The sacrifice and the one entry into the sanctuary collapses all sacrifice and offerings into one as Heb 10:4-11 points out - and so the entry into the sanctuary is for all aspects having just one sacrifice - But that did not "collapse the daily" and it did not "collapse the day of atonement".

That two phase Model God established remains.

So entry into the sanctuary was was once for all just as sacrifice was once for all - but we still have the two phase model God established for that one sacrifice..

Shedding of blood was done once... but the application of that sacrifice to the case of each individual is on going in the sanctuary - which is why we have that focus on it in both Heb 4 and 6 and 9 in the texts we find in my post above - that you appear to be skimming past.

You can choose to do that since you have free will - but I find those details very "instructive" and I don't see that your suggestion survives them.

 

[tall73]

The reference to "offered up" shows that the blood sacrifice is offered on the altar - a once for all event.

Not all blood was offered just on the altar. This

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

is not talking about the altar. It is entry, into heaven by means of blood. And it secured eternal redemption.

The sacrifice and the one entry into the sanctuary collapses all sacrifice and offerings into one as Heb 10:4-11 points out and so the entry into the sanctuary is for all aspects having just one sacrifice - But that did not "collapse the daily" and it did not "collapse the day of atonement".

All sacrifices being one is all sacrifices Bob, including those of the Day of Atonement. Jesus did not die again for the Day of Atonement.

And all entries by means of blood is all entries, including that of the Day of Atonement. Jesus had one entry by means of blood, and it was in the first century.

Everything was collapsed by it being once for all. There is only one sacrifice, and only one entry. And those fulfilled all the sacrifices and entries. His entry by means of blood secured eternal redemption. All the blood work was done.

So entry into the sanctuary was was once for all just as sacrifice was once for all - but we still have the two phase model God established for that one sacrifice.

They were not "phases" in the first place. There was the usual round of sacrifices, and then there were appointed times. But there was only one sacrifice in the heavenly, and only one entry by means of blood in the heavenly. And it was in the first century.

Shedding of blood was done once...

Not just shedding Bob, but entry by means of blood resulting in eternal redemption.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

but the application of that sacrifice to the case of each individual is on going in the sanctuary. - which is why we have that focus on it in both Heb 4 and 6 and 9 in the texts we find in my post above - that you appear to be skimming past.

Don't bear false witness Bob. I did not at all skim past the application of merits to individuals. I discussed it plainly. We come to Jesus in time of need as Heb. 4 says. But His blood work is already done. His one entry by means of blood is already done. Now He ministers the benefits to us as we approach Him. But He doesn't die afresh or enter by means of blood into God's presence afresh each time. He already did that in the first century.

The blood work was not just at the cross. It involved entry by means of blood into God's presence resulting in eternal redemption. There was only one, once for all entry by means of blood. That means it included the Day of Atonement.

But the problem for Adventists is they have reinterpreted the type. What the high priest did in the sanctuary on the day of atonement was to enter into God's presence with blood for the sins of the people throughout the year. There was only one entry by means of blood in the fulfillment, stated to have happened in the first century. And it resulted in eternal redemption.

This is why the various non-Adventist commentators recognize that the blood application on the Day of Atonement took place, but Adventists do not. Because Adventists reinterpret the type. The high priest did not go into the most holy place to investigate individual cases. He went in to present blood for the sins of the people.


Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf

 

[tall73]

The sacrifice and the one entry into the sanctuary collapses all sacrifice and offerings into one as Heb 10:4-11 points out - and so the entry into the sanctuary is for all aspects having just one sacrifice

Bob, there is only one sacrifice, and one entry by means of blood. That means the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement, and the entry into God's presence by means of blood for the Day of Atonement, already happened in the first century. There is no other.

 

[Leaf473]

Many church councils in history included some statement that was correct. But errors crept in over time as Paul predicts in 2 Thess 2.
Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Okay, so it sounds like no authoritative church councils between Acts 15 and the first GC in 1863.

Now, if I'm remembering right, the reason we are discussing this is because there is the question of
whether the early church had the authority to interpret the scriptures
in such a way as to change the primary worship day from Saturday to Sunday.

The issue is that the Canon of the New testament was not established until the late 300's.

The Canon of the Old testament was established, well, depends on who you ask.

How then would someone in say, 1850, know what was scripture such that they could exercise Sola scriptura?

 

[BobRyan]

Okay, so it sounds like no authoritative church councils between Acts 15 and the first GC in 1863.

really??

 

[BobRyan]

Now, if I'm remembering right, the reason we are discussing this is because there is the question of
whether the early church had the authority to interpret the scriptures
in such a way as to change the primary worship day from Saturday to Sunday.

I don't remember posting that.

But I do agree that no church council (Acts 15, or 1860's or 1960's or 2020's...) can contradict scripture and then claim to be correct in doing so. Which means if you are addressing something I posted you are off on the wrong foot looking for some council that was setup to negate scripture or contradict scripture.

The issue is that the Canon of the New testament was not established until the late 300's.

There is no statement by any NT writer saying "we will not know what scripture actually is for another 200 years".

Josephus said the OT was canonized 400 years before Christ and Christ's teaching was said to be from "all of scriptures" in Luke 24. So the NT saints were not in the business of saying "We have no clue what scripture is".

Act 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

Paul and Peter both confirm that their writings - their teaching was already being accepted as scripture.

no waiting.

============

Later church councils do not claim to have "come up with scripture" but rather to affirm what was already accepted as scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, there is only one sacrifice, and one entry by means of blood.

You and I keep repeating that point.

It is "noted".

That means the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement

and Passover, and the daily sin offerings etc. That is how "collapse into one" works.

All sacrifices collapse into one... all entrance into the sanctuary itself collapses into one for that once-for-all sacrifice "offered up" on the cross. But as already repeated - that did not also collapse God's two phase Sanctuary design that He was teaching mankind in both OT and NT.

 

[BobRyan]

but the application of that sacrifice to the case of each individual is on going in the sanctuary. - which is why we have that focus on it in both Heb 4 and 6 and 9 in the texts we find in my post above -

. We come to Jesus in time of need as Heb. 4 says. But His blood work is already done.

Blood sacrifice "offered up" on the cross. But the Day of Atonement work did not begin until the 2nd phase of the Heavenly Sanctuary would later start.

So Heb 4,6,9 clearly point to the daily service ongoing at the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews --

=======================================

Blood is offered up on the altar of sacrifice - which is done once for all

Heb 7:
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,

But then He goes to heaven - starts up the sanctuary service - and begins the holy place ministry where the blood is being claimed for forgiveness of sins being confessed which results in cleansing the conscience as Heb 9 and 10 point out - for the confessing those sins.

The washing and sprinkling refers to the daily service where the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest in the sanctuary - which is the daily service.

Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So here we see Paul affirming Christ's ongoing daily work as our High Priest in
Heb 4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need.


Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

1 John 1:2
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[tall73]

You and I keep repeating that point.

It is "noted".

It is "noted" but you in fact do not apply it. Once for all entry into God's presence by means of blood means just that. It includes the whole sanctuary, and it includes the inauguration and the Day of Atonement. Your saying it doesn't is just to preserve Ellen White's view of a later entry. But there is no other entry by means of blood into God's presence on our behalf. It was already done.

and Passover, and the daily sin offerings etc. That is how "collapse into one" works.

All sacrifices collapse into one... all entrance into the sanctuary itself collapses into one for that once-for-all sacrifice "offered up" on the cross. But as already repeated - that did not also collapse God's two phase Sanctuary design that He was teaching mankind in both OT and NT.

Once for all entry BY MEANS OF BLOOD into God's presence, bringing eternal redemption. That is not just the passover and the daily. That is all the entries into the sanctuary with blood, especially compared to goats blood, which only went in on two occasions, the inauguration, and the Day of Atonement. So all in one includes both of those.

 

[BobRyan]

only one sacrifice, and one entry into the sanctuary itself by means of blood.

It is "noted" but you in fact do not apply it.

On the contrary I do.

1. Once for all death of Christ - who "offers up" his blood on the cross.
2. Once for entry into the sanctuary itself.

I never argue for more deaths on the cross - as we both know.
I never argue for more entering into the sanctuary from the cross - as we both know.

God's own Two-phase ministry model remains in tact and Christ begins the daily service at His ascension. As we are reminded here --
24 minutes ago #249


Then later we see Him enter the MHP for the Day of Atonement service.

Once for all entry into God's presence by means of blood means just that.

Sadly what you are implying is that "God is not in His holy temple" that God is not in the Holy Place and that God's throne cannot move from Holy Place to Most Holy Place when the Day of Atonement function begins. And that simply is not true.

 

[tall73]

Blood sacrifice "offered up" on the cross. But the Day of Atonement work did not begin until the 2nd phase of the Heavenly Sanctuary would later start.

So Heb 4,6,9 clearly point to the daily service ongoing at the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews --

Bob you quoted yourself He doesn't need to offer any more sacrifices daily. He doesn't need fresh blood shed or presented. So yes, all the blood work is done. You are looking at descriptions of the merits of that blood work being applied.

Blood is offered up on the altar of sacrifice - which is done once for all

Bob, this is not on the altar! And you know it is not. And it resulted in eternal redemption!

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

It is talking about how He entered once for all into the heavenly sanctuary, not how He died once for all on the cross. It was this entry by means of blood, compared to blood of goats and calves, that secured eternal redemption. That is more than just death. That is blood presentation before God, which was the work of the high priest. The common person killed their own sacrifice in the sin offering, and in Passover. But here we see the priestly function of blood ministration, associated not with the cross, but with entry.

Heb 7:
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,

Exactly. He already offered it once. But He already ministered the blood once, going into God's presence, by means of blood, resulting in eternal redemption. The entry resulted in that, not just the death.

But then He goes to heaven - starts up the sanctuary service - and begins the holy place ministry where the blood is being claimed for forgiveness of sins being confessed which results in cleansing the conscience as Heb 9 and 10 point out - for the confessing those sins.

Yes, confession of sins then occurs, but not new death or blood ministry. The power of the already ministered blood is CLAIMED as you stated.

The washing and sprinkling refers to the daily service where the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest in the sanctuary - which is the daily service.

Bob, it occurs in the context of entering into the sanctuary, and it directly parallels the passages about priestly ordination. But more than that the participles referring to sprinking etc. are antecedent to the action of the verb.

Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The two actions are perfect passive participles. We are to draw near, having already been washed and sprinkled, which was what fit us to go in the first place as priests.

Exo 29:1 And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest's office: Take one young bullock, and two rams without blemish,
Exo 29:2 And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them.
Exo 29:3 And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams.
Exo 29:4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Exo 29:21 And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.


Heb 9:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things having come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made by hands, that is, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Yes, the completed blood ministration is the basis for cleansing the conscience. We come to Him to have our conscience cleansed on the basis of His already completed blood work. Notice the blood of Christ was offered to God in the past tense. The once for all entry by means of blood is in the past tense. It all happened in the first century. But now we come to him in real time for the benefits.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

Bob, sins were confessed and forgiven before the Day of Atonement, and even after the Day of Atonement in the type. It is not a "phase". It is the usual operation of the sanctuary.

And Jesus already accomplished everything regarding the death and the entry and the blood work. That is why He doesn't have to offer daily. So the benefits of the "daily" are available right at the start since Jesus already did the blood work. We come to Him to receive the benefits.

And those in the first century are part of the whole camp, just as those in the end. All have a chance to put their faith in the completed entry by means of blood of the Great High Priest that obtained eternal redemption. He did it right at the first because then everyone can afflict themselves in the Christian era, as in the type.

That doesn't mean all of the Day of Atonement is over. The scapegoat portion happened when the high priest left the sanctuary, which has not happened yet. So it will presumably still relate to the timing of the fall feasts. But the entry into God's presence by means of blood already happened in the first century and will never be repeated. The once for all nature of it changed the timing just as the once for all nature of the sacrifice changed the timing of the death of the sacrifice for the Day of Atonement. It won't be repeated.

The Day of Atonement was a corporate blood provision, entry into God's presence with blood. That already happened.

1 John 1:2
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Agreed completely. But the blood work for that was already done.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice the blood of Christ was offered to God in the past tense. The once for all entry by means of blood is in the past tense. It all happened in the first century. But now we come to him in real time for the benefits.

Which is exactly what we see happening in the daily service.

Bob, sins were confessed and forgiven before the Day of Atonement, and even after the Day of Atonement in the type.

Because as long as Christ holds His role as High Priest He does that intercessor work.

And Jesus already accomplished everything regarding the death and the entry

That's the part we keep agreeing on

in the daily service the High Priest claims the blood of the sacrifice in the sinner's behalf. No such thing as claiming the blood for the sinner - then 10 years later the sinner shows up to plead forgiveness. No such sanctuary model exists for that design/plan and we can't just "make it up".

 

[tall73]

only one sacrifice, and one entry into the sanctuary itself by means of blood.

Bob, entry into the first compartment didn't secure eternal salvatoin.

Entry into the first compartment didn't require blood.

Entry into the first compartment didn't involve goat's blood.

This is entry into the whole sanctuary, including the second compartment, and fulfilled all the entries by means of blood, and secured eternal redemption.

On the contrary I do.

1. Once for all death of Christ - who "offers up" his blood on the cross.
2. Once for entry into the sanctuary itself.

I never argue for more deaths on the cross - as we both know.
I never argue for more entering into the sanctuary from the cross - as we both know.

God's own Two-phase ministry model remains in tact and Christ begins the daily service at His ascension. As we are reminded here --
24 minutes ago #249

No, not just into the sanctuary, but into the second compartment. The inauguration didn't involve just the first compartment. Entry by means of blood was not needed for the first compartment. Entry with goats blood didn't happen in the first compartment.

It all happened already Bob.

Then later we see Him enter the MHP for the Day of Atonement service.

We don't see that in the Bible at all Bob. We see a once for all entry by means of blood already past tense for the author of Hebrews. You only see the other in Ellen White's writings. And those should be tested by the Scripture, and they fail the test.

Sadly what you are implying is that "God is not in His holy temple" that God is not in the Holy Place and that God's throne cannot move from Holy Place to Most Holy Place when the Day of Atonement function begins. And that simply is not true.

Of course God is in His holy temple. And His presence manifested above the mercy seat. And we go to the throne of grace Bob.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

God appeared over the mercy seat Bob, it represented His throne of grace.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, entry into the first compartment didn't secure eternal salvatoin.

The daily service is the one where individuals are interacting - as each one confesses and as the blood is claimed for that individual. You keep skipping that key feature in the daily service.

It is in the daily service that we see "his sins are forgiven" as Leviticus points out -- when specific sins are confessed and repented of.

It is only that interaction that changes the salvation status of the individual.

No lost person is saved in the Day of Atonement and no saved person is lost in the Day of Atonement judgment as Matt 7 points out. The good vs bad tree state is already determined by the daily service activity - the interaction between High Priest and individual. Looking at the tree does not change it from bad to good or from good to bad.

None of that happens in the judgment portion. Judgement merely exposes "What already is" as a result of the daily service.

When your name comes up in the judgment you already are either lost or saved. Your deeds are already recorded and the Romans 2 process will look at what is already written. You will not "become saved" and you will not "become lost" when your name appears for review. Rather your interaction with the High Priest in the daily service will have already accomplished the result one way or the other.

Job did not "become righteous" when they brought his name up in Job 1 - rather God declared that Job already was a Christian. However the process of proving that point - took time.

 

[tall73]

Which is exactly what we see happening in the daily service.

Bob, we don't see entry with blood in the daily service except for two scenarios. And you will have to explain how those could happen in the fulfillment.

a. the sin of the high priest. Jesus is our High Priest and has no sin.

b. The sin of the whole camp at once. That would be all true believers, and you would have to explain how you see that happening.

The other entries involving blood entered into the Most Holy Place, the inauguration and the Day of Atonement. Those are the two that involved goats blood which Hebrews 12 contrasts with Jesus' blood that He entered by means of. And the entry on the Day of Atonement was for presenting blood in God's presence for the sins of all the people, the sanctuary etc. Now THAT describes obtaining eternal redemption Bob.

He did all the blood ministration at once.

Because as long as Christ holds His role as High Priest He does that intercessor work.

Of course. And He does it for ALL Christians, which is why He did it right at the first. There was only one death, and one entry by means of blood into God's presence. He presented the completed sacrifice. There is no other blood work. There is only applying the benefits to all who come to Him in faith.

in the daily service the High Priest claims the blood of the sacrifice in the sinner's behalf.

Yes, agreed. And it atoned and forgave. But you don't think he does this also in the Day of Atonement? That is why he went into the sanctuary, to present blood for all the sins of the people, the sanctuary, etc. Adventists have re-invented the type. The high priest did not investigate cases in the sanctuary, but offered cleansing blood for the sins of the people.

No such thing as claiming the blood for the sinner - then 10 years later the sinner shows up to plead forgiveness. No such sanctuary model exists for that design/plan and we can't just "make it up".

Bob, the heavenly is the true, the earthly is the shadow. There is no sanctuary model of killing the animal then 10 years later it is applied either. But that is why it is once for all. Once for all death AND once for all entry by means of blood, and once for all, and He obtained eternal redemption.

Jesus is not up there with vials of His blood. He presented Himself, the completed sacrifice, when He went into God's presence for us.

 

[tall73]

The daily service is the one where individuals are interacting - as each one confesses and as the blood is claimed for that individual. You keep skipping that key feature in the daily service.

I am not skipping it Bob. The sin offering went on all the time, before and after the Day of Atonement. But it was all fulfilled in one in the fulfillment.

Jesus is not dying every time someone sins and confesses. And He isn't breaking out vials of blood either. He already presented Himself.

But also, there was participation in the Day of Atonement. You had to afflict yourself.

Lev 23:26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

IF they did not follow the prescription and in faith afflict themselves they were cut off.

It is in the daily service that we see "his sins are forgiven" as Leviticus points out -- when specific sins are confessed and repented of.

Agreed! And Jesus already provided everything for that. He already died once. He will not again. He already presented the completed offering of Himself in heaven before God on our behalf. He need not again. That is why He sat down, having MADE PURIFICATION for sins.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Bob, in both the sin offering and the Day of Atonement purification came only after the blood ministration, not just the death.

It is only that interaction that changes the salvation status of the individual.

Yes, and right at the beginning of the Christian era Jesus made the blood provision, and now all can come to avail themselves. That is the only way for all to participate not only in the sin offering benefits, but in the Day of Atonement afflicting. He already did all of the blood work. That is what they high priest did IN the sanctuary on the day of atonement.

No lost person is saved in the Day of Atonement and no saved person is lost in the Day of Atonement judgment as Matt 7 points out. The good vs bad tree state is already determined by the daily service activity

Bob, of course people are saved in both. One is a picture of confession and forgiveness and atonement for a single sin. And the other is a picture of corporate atonement for the sins of the whole camp. That is why the Day of Atonement offering is also a sin offering:

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

The sin offering on the Day of Atonement makes atonement for the people as well as the sanctuary. It is a picture of corporate atonement. And that is why it is the most direct picture of Jesus' entry by means of blood. On the Day of Atonement the high priest went into the presence of God with the blood of the sacrifice and made atonement for all the sins of all the people throughout the year. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for ever then entered by means of His own blood, obtaining eternal redemption, and having made purification for sins, sat down. He completed the blood work.

- the interaction between High Priest and individual. Looking at the tree does not change it from bad to good or from good to bad.

Bob, the high priest didn't look at the "tree" in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. He offered cleansing blood! Look at what Leviticus actually describes! cleansing blood for all the people. Those who didn't afflict themselves were cut off. That is the blood of Jesus providing atonement for all sins of the faithful.

None of that happens in the judgment portion. Judgement merely exposes "What already is" as a result of the daily service.

Bob, the high priest offered cleansing blood in the Day of Atonement in the sanctuary. He didn't examine cases.

I quoted for you the text of the type. It says

Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

When your name comes up in the judgment you already are either lost or saved. Your deeds are already recorded and the Romans 2 process will look at what is already written. You will not "become saved" and you will not "become lost" when your name appears for review. Rather your interaction with the High Priest in the daily service will have already accomplished the result one way or the other.

Bob, there are no records reviewed in the Day of Atonement in the type. There is cleansing application of blood for atonement. And Jesus did that in the first century, securing eternal redemption, and making purification for sins. He did the blood work.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, we don't see entry with blood in the daily service except for two scenarios. And you will have to explain how those could happen in the fulfillment.

a. the sin of the high priest. Jesus is our High Priest and has no sin.

b. The sin of the whole camp at once. That would be all true believers, and you would have to explain how you see that happening.
.

Ok then .. . more Bible.


===================== Lev blood offering – sin offering


==== Sin offering is eaten by the priest or brought in and sprinkled:

Lev 10:
16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”


Lev 6:24 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 25 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘This is the law of the sin offering: in the place where the burnt offering is slain the sin offering shall be slain before the Lord; it is most holy. 26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. It shall be eaten in a holy place, in the court of the tent of meeting. 27 Anyone who touches its flesh will become consecrated; and when any of its blood splashes on a garment, in a holy place you shall wash what was splashed on. 28 Also the earthenware vessel in which it was boiled shall be broken; and if it was boiled in a bronze vessel, then it shall be scoured and rinsed in water. 29 Every male among the priests may eat of it; it is most holy. 30 But no sin offering of which any of the blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the holy place shall be eaten; it shall be burned with fire.


DAILY Service where Individuals receive Atonement/Forgiveness of sins

Lev 4:

27 ‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 31 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32 ‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering. 34 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 35 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.


=========== symbols that represent something

Jesus is not up there with vials of His blood. .

1. The Priest/HighPriest: is a symbol of Christ our High Priest
2. The daily is a symbol of the daily service – first phase of Sanctuary service
3. The altar of sacrifice: a symbol of the cross
4. Angels as images on the curtain and the ark; a symbol for real observers in the sanctuary in heaven
5. Blood brought to the sanctuary (either by sprinkling or eating the sacrifice and then entering the sanctuary) – record of sin of the individual entered in heaven

a. Christ in heaven claiming His blood case by case for individual sins for those who confess and repent​

 

[tall73]

Looking at the tree does not change it from bad to good or from good to bad.

Leviticus shows that the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is an application of blood to atone for the sins of the people, and cleanse the sanctuary. It is not "looking at trees", "looking at books" "reviewing individual cases", etc.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

Adventists have changed the type. Instead of a provision of blood for all their sins, Adventists have posited that the high priest is reviewing individual cases from books. But as can be seen above, it was not books that were pictured, but an application of cleansing blood.

 

[tall73]

Ok then .. . more Bible.

Notice, this "more Bible" quote doesn't show books or investigation on the Day of Atonement. What was done by the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was cleansing application of blood.

You need to find investigation in here. And it is not there.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

The day of atonement....made atonement, for the sanctuary AND for the people. It is a picture of corporate provision of blood.

The sin offering ALSO made atonement for the sanctuary and forgave the person. It was a picture of individual confession of a single sin. They are different pictures of aspects of Jesus once for all sacrifice and blood ministration.

Now you note the sin offering. But it didn't transfer. It provided atonement and forgiveness for the person:

Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

And it did not transfer sin to the sanctuary, but it made ATONEMENT in the sanctuary!

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

The blood always cleanses and forgives and atones Bob. The sin offering was Christ. HE died for our sins, not to transfer, but to forgive and atone.

And even in the text you cite, it doesn't transfer. It atones.


Lev 10:
16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”

See Bob, here it is not transferred. Rather it removes guilt and makes atonement.

The sin offering and the Day of Atonement were both pictures of cleansing, and atonement. Because they were pointing to aspects of Jesus' blood which makes cleansing, not transfer. Jesus died for the sins. And His blood makes holy.

Now Bob, none of that showed transfer. It all showed atonement and forgiveness. And none of it at all showed the high priest on the day of atonement investigating cases. He made corporate provision of blood for atonement for all the people.

If you see what the type actually says you would see all the rest. Jesus did what the type says. He entered into God's presence by means of His own blood, obtaining eternal redemption. He made purification for sins of all the camp. We either afflict ourselves and avail ourselves of that completed work, or we are cut off.