post-Trib, Pre-mill RAPTURE

[Douggg]

TWO definitions for "second coming"
1. Jesus "comes again" John 14:1-3 at His "appearing" to rapture the saints to heaven.

2. Jesus "comes to Earth to reign" - in Rev 21 (and is implied in portions of Rev 20 after the 1000 years)

One flawed definition for second coming
1. Jesus comes to rule over sinners and saints for a few years.

1000 year millennium

Only Rev 20 contains explicit reference to the future 1000 year millennium AND contains a continuation of the events discussed in Rev 19 - at Christ's appearing in the sky with the armies of heaven.

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In Rev 19 and 20 we can see that the appearing of Christ, resurrection of the saints, destruction of the wicked - takes place pre-mill.

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 we see that at the appearing of Christ - the saints are raptured - to heaven.

In John 13:36 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.”

In John 14:1-3 we see that Jesus "comes gain" to take the saints to His Father's house.
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be

John 17:11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are.

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


Post-Trib Rapture

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

Bob, are you trying to prove or dis-prove the post-trib rapture view?

The first flaw of the post-trib view is the assumed definition by them who came up with all the "trib" view labels, i.e pre-trib, mid trib, post-trib - is that they say the "tribulation" is the full 7 years of Daniel 9:27 seventieth week.

The full 7 years in NOT tribulation. The world will be saying peace and safety for most of the first half, thinking the Antichrist is the Jewish messiah instead of Jesus. In the shaded blue area on my chart.

The great tribulation in the shaded red area on my chart - 1335 days long.

The post-trib view to be correctly termed - should be labeled post-great tribulation or post-70th week, either one. But not post-trib.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Matt 25 like 2 Peter 3 collapses everything into one day. But 2 Peter 3 reminds us that that "day" is in fact a 1000 years.

When is Satan's little season? Is it after the millennium and before the resurrection of all the dead? Or are you denying its existence?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When is Satan's little season? Is it after the millennium and before the resurrection of all the dead? Or are you denying its existence?

Great question. Obviously, if the day of the Lord is exactly 1000 years and the burning up of the heavens and earth occurs at the end of that time (but not after) then that does not allow for Satan's little season to occur. That means he has Revelation 20:9 occurring even before Satan's little season is supposed to begin. This is a major flaw in his doctrine, so I'm interested to see how he responds.

 

[ewq1938]

Great question. Obviously, if the day of the Lord is exactly 1000 years and the burning up of the heavens and earth occurs at the end of that time (but not after) then that does not allow for Satan's little season to occur.

The burning of the heavens and Earth happens AFTER satan's little season and AFTER the GWTJ. It would happen right before Revelation 21:1 when John saw the new Heaven and Earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The burning of the heavens and Earth happens AFTER satan's little season and AFTER the GWTJ. It would happen right before Revelation 21:1 when John saw the new Heaven and Earth.

I think your timing is just a little bit off there. I personally believe it happens at the end of Satan's little season and just before the GWTJ. I believe Revelation 20:9 refers to that because the fire that comes down from heaven at that time will destroy a number of people "as the sand of the sea" and it indicates that they live in places all around the earth.

 

[ewq1938]

I think your timing is just a little bit off there.

My timing is based on when John saw the new heavens and Earth which would have been right after the burning of the old ones.

I believe Revelation 20:9 refers to that because the fire that comes down from heaven at that time will destroy a number of people "as the sand of the sea" and it indicates that they live in places all around the earth.

Revelation 20:9 is a localized burning of some people outside of Jerusalem. It clearly isn't burning the whole Earth and since it came from heaven it is also not burning that heaven.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

My timing is based on when John saw the new heavens and Earth which would have been right after the burning of the old ones.

Right, I figured that was your reasoning.

Revelation 20:9 is a localized burning of some people outside of Jerusalem. It clearly isn't burning the whole Earth and since it came from heaven it is also not burning that heaven.

You say "some people" as if it wouldn't be very many, but it says they number "as the sand of the sea" (Rev 20:8). Can you tell me how a number of people "as the sand of the sea" would all gather together in one local place? Imagine the logistics of that.

I believe you're missing that it's figurative language describing the opposition against the church all around the world and it's not describing a literal gathering of a huge number of people all in one location.

 

[ewq1938]

You say "some people" as if it wouldn't be very many

No, some people can represent many.

, but it says they number "as the sand of the sea" (Rev 20:8). Can you tell me how a number of people "as the sand of the sea" would all gather together in one local place? Imagine the logistics of that.

The "as the sand of the sea" is a figure of speech, not a literal statement. It's a large amount of epople and the area around Jerusalem can hold them. The fire is used to kill them and them only. It is not a fire that is burning the entire Earth and heaven.

I believe you're missing that it's figurative language describing the opposition against the church all around the world and it's not describing a literal gathering of a huge number of people all in one location.

It obviously is. The city is named, the camp is mentioned. Those things are in one small area of the world. Changing it into a global and heavenly burning is adding to the text, called eisegesis.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

There is nothing global here. This is a localized burning outside of Jerusalem to kill a large group of people. It doesn't affect the rest of Israel, nor the continent Israel belongs to nor any other area or country etc. And it certainly isn't fire coming out of heaven and going back to heaven to destroy it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The "as the sand of the sea" is a figure of speech, not a literal statement. It's a large amount of epople and the area around Jerusalem can hold them. The fire is used to kill them and them only. It is not a fire that is burning the entire Earth and heaven.

Please tell me how that many people coming from all over the earth would all get to that area. The logistics would be a complete nightmare.

It obviously is. The city is named, the camp is mentioned. Those things are in one small area of the world. Changing it into a global and heavenly burning is adding to the text, called eisegesis.

Interpreting the text according to the type of language it's written in, which is in figurative language in this case, is not eisegesis. That would mean the interpretation of any figurative language in scripture is eisegesis, which is obviously not the case.

 

[ewq1938]

Please tell me how that many people coming from all over the earth would all get to that area. The logistics would be a complete nightmare.

That's irrelevant. The bible says they get there and how is not our concern.

Interpreting the text according to the type of language it's written in, which is in figurative language in this case, is not eisegesis.

There is nothing figurative in the two verses we are discussing. You are just changing what it says to make it say something it does not say.

That would mean the interpretation of any figurative language in scripture is eisegesis, which is obviously not the case.

Eisegesis is introducing outside info into the text to change what it says. I agree with what it says. It does not say what you are claiming.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That's irrelevant. The bible says they get there and how is not our concern.

That's something I would expect someone to say who has no explanation for how that passage can make any sense when interpreted literally the way you do.

Eisegesis is introducing outside info into the text to change what it says. I agree with what it says. It does not say what you are claiming.

It says it in a figurative way, so it's not eisegesis. You're acting as if eisegesis occurs when someone doesn't take a verse or passage of scripture literally, but obviously not all scripture is written literally.

 

[ewq1938]

It says it in a figurative way, so it's not eisegesis. You're acting as if eisegesis occurs when someone doesn't take a verse or passage of scripture literally, but obviously not all scripture is written literally.

Not all but these two verses clearly are literal. There is zero figurative language found there. Satan is freed from his imprisonment, goes to deceive people all around the globe (traveling is no issue) he brings them to Jerusalem and God rains fire from heaven and kills them all except satan and satan is cast into the LOF. It's all literal and has ZERO to do with the heavens and Earth being destroyed by fire. The eisegesis is forcing the heavens to be on fire when the text says nothing about it and forcing any other part of the Earth to see any fire. The fire is only where those deceived people are and they are surrounding Jerusalem. I reject your interpretation because it is unsound and doesn't match the text.

 

[BobRyan]

When is Satan's little season? Is it after the millennium and before the resurrection of all the dead? Or are you denying its existence?

The appearing of Christ - His coming with the armies of heaven Rev 19 - and rapture of the saints -- leaves Satan on a desolate Earth for 1000 years according to Rev 19 and Jer 4 - then the wicked dead are resurrected once the 1000 years are completed which releases Satan from his condition of having no one to lead/temp/deceive. That starts the "little season" where he has billions of newly resurrected wicked people, the wicked armies of all ages to lead, and a war to organize against the city of God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The appearing of Christ - His coming with the armies of heaven Rev 19 - and rapture of the saints -- leaves Satan on a desolate Earth for 1000 years according to Rev 19 and Jer 4 - then the wicked dead are resurrected once the 1000 years are completed which releases Satan from his condition of having no one to lead/temp/deceive. That starts the "little season" where he has billions of newly resurrected wicked people, the wicked armies of all ages to lead, and a war to organize against the city of God.

Why would he go out to deceive the resurrected damned when they are already eternally deceived and eternally dammed?

And, hmmm, where does it say this in the Bible?

 

[ewq1938]

The appearing of Christ - His coming with the armies of heaven Rev 19 - and rapture of the saints -- leaves Satan on a desolate Earth for 1000 years according to Rev 19 and Jer 4 - then the wicked dead are resurrected once the 1000 years are completed which releases Satan from his condition of having no one to lead/temp/deceive.

The resurrection of the unsaved does not take place when satan is released. It happens AFTER satan's army is destroyed. His army was all the unsaved living mortal people you don't think even exist but they do exist and they populated the 1000 year rod of iron reign.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The resurrection of the unsaved takes place at verse 11 and they are fully resurrected by verse 12.

 

[BobRyan]

The resurrection of the unsaved does not take place when satan is released. It happens AFTER satan's army is destroyed.

The book of Revelation does not have everything in sequence so the destruction at the appearing of Christ shows up in Rev 6, in Rev 14 and in Rev 19, etc.

So in Rev 20 we have a short summary of events after the end of the millennium - in vs 7-10. Then in vs 11 through the end of the chapter it expands on that short summary.

 

[BobRyan]

Why would he go out to deceive the resurrected damned when they are already eternally deceived and eternally dammed?

The text itself says he leads them to surround the city for an attack on it. We have to go with what is in the text.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The text itself says he leads them to surround the city for an attack on it. We have to go with what is in the text.

You are fudging the issue. The text nowhere teaches resurrected wicked humans on a future earth before Satan's little season. You force that upon the text. What is more, it is only after Satan's little season is completed that Christ comes, the general resurrection/judgment occurs and the current earth flees away.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

You are fudging the issue. The text nowhere teaches resurrected wicked humans

It does teach that saying specifically that the "rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1000 years were completed".

on a future earth before Satan's little season.

The text specifically says that Satan set loose for a little season does NOT happen until that same point namely "when the thousand years are completed".

The chapter is explicit that BOTH events happen at the moment that "thousand year are completed".

This is irrefutable.

3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

... 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

BOTH the little season of satan being loosed and the rest of the dead coming to life happen at the same moment in time namely (named in the text this way) - the thousand years were completed

This is irrefutable.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It does teach that saying specifically that the "rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1000 years were completed".



The text specifically says that Satan set loose for a little season does NOT happen until that same point namely "when the thousand years are completed".

The chapter is explicit that BOTH events happen at the moment that "thousand year are completed".

This is irrefutable.

3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

... 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

BOTH the little season of satan being loosed and the rest of the dead coming to life happen at the same moment in time namely (named in the text this way) - the thousand years were completed

This is irrefutable.

You are avoiding the issue again. The dead are raised after Satan's little season, not before as you allege. For info: after Satan's little season is still after "the thousand years were completed." Read the text! You are clearly avoiding that, as it exposes your SDA doctrine.